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Subtropical Times, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday »
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Kibbles
Premium
join:1999-07-31
Mission Viejo, CA

reply to nightdesigns
Re: Homeowners: Mortgage Interest, Property Tax & Uncle Sam

I found this...usefull if you want to see what your neighbors/boss is paying.

»tax.ocgov.com/tcweb/search_page.···:05%20PM


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA

reply to jig
The inefficiency of rebuilding NO is yet another government fiasco. How many people and business do you think would choose to rebuild on land that sits below sea level if this wasn't a government bailout with a promise of endless future bailouts? Darn few! I don't have a huge problem with helping out with a 10 cents on the dollar (land value only) deal for those that will walk away and move to higher ground. Those with insurance won't be that badly hurt and those without really shouldn't get anything. Let the flooded areas go back to being wetlands.

--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

reply to sholling
that's not quite what i think i'm advocating. and i don't see some righteous moral authority figure playing a role in this: it would probably just be another inefficiency. you guys might be right in that a deep recession would harm too many responsible livelihoods to ever end up resulting in something "better", but i guess i'm getting very pessimistic about the slow change approach. not enough people care, because they think (correctly, so far) they can get by without caring. how do you change that without affecting almost everyone?

i wonder how many houses in NO are being rebuilt with studs every 3ft instead of every 16in.

anyway, i understand your problems with my idea. what better ways are there to teach people about long term affects of short term rationalizations? (not rhetorical)

i'm not personally spread eagled to the winds of change, financially, but i'm not very insulated either. a deep recession would probably mean i'd have to move to find work, which would mean taking a huge hit on the sale price of our house. that, or a career change (on the scale of blue collar to white collar).
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin


aztecnology
O Rly?
Premium
join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA
reply to sholling
Yeah, what he ^ said. Plus Starschmucks dosen't franchise...


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA


1 edit
reply to jig
I've been sitting back and watching where this conversation is going and I can't hold my tongue anymore. I'm getting a little nauseous. Next thing you will be telling us is we just need a strong leader to create your little utopia. Someone to force people to do the things they don't want to do, but that you in your infinite wisdom KNOW are the right things. Maybe we could call our new leader Uncle Joe or chairman something, or something equally colorful. The important thing is to force people kicking and screaming into lifestyles that meet your idea of utopia no matter how much they hate it.

You usually make a lot more sense than this.
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

reply to nightdesigns
not true.

having less money might require people to buy groceries and eat "made" food rather than fast food. less fast food all the way around would be great for everyone. starbucks would drop franchises, etc.

any new car, even a prius, causes more harm to the environment in it's manufacture than almost any reasonably well upkept economy car puts out in it's lifetime of use. people buying less new cars is overall a good thing. people using cars less is much better.

rather than people commuting from the suburbs, they would either have to rent closer in to town (how are they going to afford the gas and the mortgage?), take public transport and drop the second car, or get a job closer to home. the squeeze would get them to change one way or another. those that won't would go bankrupt by ignoring the signs.

i can see where you're coming from, but i don't think you're thinking about as deep a recession as i am. we're talking about something on the scale of a Katrina, but in the financial markets (though possibly only in housing and those markets immediately adjacent, like residence construction, loans, etc).
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin

cmaenginsb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA

reply to nightdesigns
Hmmm, having less money is going to allow me to eat better? That's a rich one. The reality is it will force people to buy the less expensive, less healthy and more environmentally devasting mass produced crap that is sold in the markets.

The same would be true of other choices as well. You would see less new cars on the road as people can't afford the loans to buy them further increasing pollution. Since housing costs would remain out of whack more and more people would be stuck commuting from the suburbs further increasing the problem.

You idea of a reccession is just as utopian as the one you want to take the clue bat to.


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

reply to No_Strings
well, the public corruption in NO was part and parcel of the general failure. again, i see it as an experiment: if the corruption lasts or gets worse, then that's a data point for crisis rebuilding being nothing particularly useful to hope for.

and i don't think "you try the socratic method only for so long before you start itching for the clue bat" as a punitive "undertone".

wouldn't it be great if only the red states had to pony up for the national debt? well, unfortunately, the closest thing to that is a general recession. or, that's the closest the citizens will get to really, personally owning the national debt.

and, in the end, i'm not a believer in maslow's pyramid and certainly not pol pot's purification. but i also don't think very highly of baby stepping an irresponsible population through self-wrought suffering. historically, the US has found ways to get through wide-spread recessions better off on the other end. appreciably so. we've seen how badly the nation reacts to more localized issues (of which NO might be one, it's a very interesting data point), so maybe it HAS to be wide spread. hmm, but how much did anyone learn from the dot com bubble pop?

ug, now i truly AM babbling. good night.
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin


CurtesyFlush
Bababooey, fafafooey, tatatoothy.
Premium
join:2002-08-23
Fontana, CA
reply to No_Strings
No slick, you did with that First Class phones ticket admission.

I know how hard that test was.
--
Life Member, NRA and CRPA.


No_Strings
Premium,Mod
join:2001-11-22
The OC
reply to CurtesyFlush
Shh. You'll blow my dumb Pennsylvania farm boy persona.


CurtesyFlush
Bababooey, fafafooey, tatatoothy.
Premium
join:2002-08-23
Fontana, CA
reply to No_Strings
The Bunster is high fiving you from the LBC for that Maslow reference.
--
Life Member, NRA and CRPA.


No_Strings
Premium,Mod
join:2001-11-22
The OC

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1 edit
reply to jig
There's a punitive undertone in your theme - "A recession will show 'em. Being out of work will make them come around to my way of thinking."

While I appreciate your idealism (and some of your ideals), the notion that a speed bump in the economy would somehow be a catalyst for more efficient government, better transportation projects or spur people to act differently about commuting is ... well, naive at best.

A robust economy will support public transportation projects or alternative fuels or group tree hugs or non-toxic rat traps or whatever else your cause is. What's lacking is public support. In a recession, you will lack both the funds and have a public far more concerned about the lower layers of Maslow's hierarchy than lofty social ideals.

edit: Forgot the New Orleans part.

New Orleans has been a cesspool of public corruption and government inefficiency for decades at the expense of its poorest citizens. Now, it's just a cesspool, degenerating into a crimefest that's being paved over by tourism promotion and sunny reports of progress. A broad US recession or a local one would be nothing like what is going on in New Orleans. A more logical comparison would be a large-scale natural disaster - the big one. Again, I think that's punitive. Biblical, vengeful God stuff. Returning everyone to a primitive state to teach them a lesson and build a new society is right out of Pol Pot's playbook.


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

reply to No_Strings
said by No_Strings See Profile :

A free market addresses most of ills you mention.

"Irresponsible" borrowers lose their investments.
Lenders who take on too much risk lose money.
Investors in REITs or lenders lose share value.

this all happens in spades, and all at once, when a recession hits. if it's piecemeal, i don't think enough people take notice (even when it hits THEM).

What governmental inefficiencies would be excised by a recession? What individual priorities would be changed? People need to earn a living, eat, buy a home and save for the future. Governments need to self-sustain. Recession = less money for both = more debt for all and more hardship for those least able/willing to cope.
inefficiencies like funding new highway extension instead of more effective public transport where it can be used the most. inefficiencies like having multiple departments overseeing the same spending project. ear marks, pork barreling, using federal and state agencies to enforce private or civil actions, general bloat/ineffective incumbents. if the recession is bad enough, government will be put under a microscope (or possibly given too much power... hmmm.) and i would hope the chumps would be voted out.

individual priorities: people would be forced to make better choices about where they live and work, what they drive, what they eat, how much they save, and would have to make harder decisions about their future.

you're probably right about the hardship hitting the least able the hardest.. but i'm not sure they aren't a proportionally appropriate part of the problem. and i think they have the most to gain from a reorganization.

Not sure how New Orleans fits into this at all.
no imagination. NO is an experiment about how well both public and private funding/labor can rebuild an infrastructure hit by some critical, general failure. theirs was across the board, where a recession might not reach as far as actual physical destruction. i think the approaches would have to be similar if there was a big enough recession. the question is: will what they come up with be substantively better than NO pre katrina (which might mean a much smaller city). if not, then maybe a recession would spell doom.

the real question is: do you want a recession where things might get a bit hairy but some dramatic changes for the better might occur, or do you want to slowly reach the same low point through application of same-old same-old and hope the bounce will somehow materialize then?

The only way to build a more solid structure is to not build on swampy land below sea level.
right. what's the best way to make that point to a society of financial swamp dwellers?
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin


FutureMon
OW My Eyes
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2000-10-05
Colorado Springs, CO
clubs:

reply to nightdesigns
For my 2006 taxes, I was able to deduct about $49k for my interest payments. And I didn't even include my property taxes...cause I couldn't find the dern paperwork fast enough so I filed with the lower numbers.

(One of the loan programs I was in for about 6 months was an interest-only deal). I refi-ed out of that into a more standard 30 year fixed (more like a 30 year fixed amortized over 40 with a baloon due @ 30). Obviously I plan on refinancing out of this one or selling before that.

Just ran some customized comps...

10 properties: (Avg SOLD price / avg sq. ft) = avg $ per sq. ft * my sq. ft = potential list price) and I came up with $600k. Since it's based on actuals, not LIST price I think I can play with it a little bit due to my properties "extras" and get what I've wanted which is at least $650k. Wife finally decided to agree with me on moving out of state, so we're putting things in motion to sell. I'll take the profit and put it down on a foreclosure in Colorado, get a conforming fixed 30 and cut my payment in half for a larger place.

- FM
--
Undisputed BBR Karaoke Champion! Care to challenge me?


No_Strings
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join:2001-11-22
The OC

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reply to jig
I'm not getting your point.

A free market addresses most of ills you mention.

"Irresponsible" borrowers lose their investments.
Lenders who take on too much risk lose money.
Investors in REITs or lenders lose share value.

What governmental inefficiencies would be excised by a recession? What individual priorities would be changed? People need to earn a living, eat, buy a home and save for the future. Governments need to self-sustain. Recession = less money for both = more debt for all and more hardship for those least able/willing to cope.

Not sure how New Orleans fits into this at all. The feds, along with state & local, are subsidizing the rebuilding of the economy to regain the tax revenue stream. Investors and local business people are putting money into rebuilding in the hope of getting a return on the investment. Homeowners are putting their own money into rebuilding just to have a place to live and because it's home.

The only way to build a more solid structure is to not build on swampy land below sea level.


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

reply to No_Strings
said by No_Strings See Profile :

What the hell good would that do?
my hope is that it would force the general public to switch their priorities around to where some of the more entrenched inefficiencies of government and social infrastructure would be... excised. i think a lot of irresponsible borrowers need to have their actions checked, and i don't know of a good way for that to reach high enough to cause change without it being a pretty big recession.

New Orleans is (now) a bit of an experiment on this very topic: if things get really bad and there is a general failure or crisis, can a rebuilding effort be created by our current society (us) that constructs a more solid structure on the ashes of what came before?

granted, NO is teaching us, so far, that the answer is no, but maybe CA is different enough from LA that we can't draw a clear conclusion, then again, any general housing recession might hit the los angeles area harder than anywhere else in the US, and maybe what NO teaches us is that if a crisis is too localized, the rest of the country couldn't give a rat's ass.

anyway, point being: you try the socratic method only for so long before you start itching for the clue bat. a recession might be the perfect swing.
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin


Kibbles
Premium
join:1999-07-31
Mission Viejo, CA

reply to FutureMon
I guess it is a good time to buy...bad time to sell and if someone could get financing in the past is out of luck.

Has anyone seen any data regarding sales of appliances,groceries,moving companies and so on...with all the foreclosures going on I wonder are those people renting,leasing,moving in with relatives?


aztecnology
O Rly?
Premium
join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA
·Verizon FIOS

reply to FutureMon
That's good info, i'm glad Century21 is telling it like it is. Also as rates continue to rise affordability will keep shrinking, especially in the subprime market. People are going to be in shock when they start getting quotes of 8%-12% for their first mortgage rates.

With our negative savings rate, most first time buyers are finding 100% loans all but gone, and not having 5%-10% for down payments is going to continue to push home prices down further...
--
"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that always come in legions." John Callari .:|:. Say no to the IRS Yes to the Fair Tax


No_Strings
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The OC

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reply to jig
said by jig See Profile :

i'd love to see a huge recession... i just don't think the various pressures are going to allow for one.
What the hell good would that do? Why would you wish for millions to be thrown out of work and for any of your long-term investments to take a hit?

I'm all for moderation in housing prices. An inflated speculative market (housing or otherwise) can't be sustained and while a few profit, the overall benefit is dubious. I'd rather see modest, sustained growth. That's just a personal preference, though.

But I sure as heck don't want to see the economy hit a wall and take out the bottom rung of the wage ladder in the process.


FutureMon
OW My Eyes
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2000-10-05
Colorado Springs, CO
clubs:

reply to Kibbles
Here's an article the local "sales" team provided me today. It's supposedly going out in the next Century 21 Magazine some time next week.
said by Mark and Al - Century 21 Realtor Article :
State of the Market
Cooling market and rising interest rates; is the window of opportunity closing for both buyers and sellers?

With recent economic factors having a significant impact on the real estate market both buyers and sellers want to know how they will be impacted. Each is hoping the market is tilting in their favor; but who will have the upper hand? First we’ll look at some of those factors and then we’ll discuss the way we see them impacting both sides. Amongst the factors we’ll discuss are inventory, foreclosure rates, availability (or lack of availability) of loans, interest rates, trends, local market statistics, as well as some of the perceptions we have experienced from both buyers and sellers. For the purposes of this publication we’ll attempt to be as concise as possible, (as hard as it is for us), so for those of you needing more detailed answers or having further questions, we absolutely invite your calls and emails!

Inventory: We track the local inventory carefully and with the exception of a slight decrease from late last year through February 2007 inventory has steadily increased for several years, and with the loss of the “sub-prime” loan programs, (as discussed in our previous issues), we noticed a spike in inventory during March which hasn’t let up. For example, as of early June 2007 the inventory of homes for sale in Covina, Glendora, and Claremont have increased 35-40% above the levels of late February.

Foreclosures: Reports indicate that during the first quarter of 2007 mortgage lenders in California sent out the highest number of default notices in a decade. With so many properties in default it appears that more property will soon be on the market.

Loans: Although there are many loans available for those with great credit and a sizeable down-payment, the availability of loans for those with low credit scores, difficult to document income, or little to zero down-payment are much harder to obtain.

Interest Rates: The buyers that can obtain a loan are beginning to see an increase in interest rates and in fact interest rates for the standard fixed-rate loan have increased approximately ½ percent since the beginning of April.

Trends: According to recent reports from the California Association of Realtor, home sales statewide decreased by 27.8% in April as compared with the same period a year ago. C.A.R.’s unsold inventory index for April was 10 months (almost double that of a year earlier). The National Association of Realtors trimmed its sales forecast for the forth straight month and said it now expected prices would drop more than previously forecast.

Local statistics: Our local Multiple Listing Service reported a) The highest number of homes for sale in 8 years, b) The monthly supply of homes doubling from the same period last year to 13.2 months, and c) An increase of over 46% in the average number of days on the market to 79 days.

Although a lot of the recent news and statistics may not be happy news, we are pleased to see that some of the big boys and the media are finally fessing up to the realities and trends of the market. (Trends and statistics that we have been reporting to our customers for the past 2-3 years!)

So, as promised, let’s take a look at the implications of the above on both buyers and sellers;

Sellers…
Many sellers are in denial and have yet to realize that it has become a buyer’s market. They seem to keep hoping there will be some miraculous reversal and return to a hot seller’s market. However, the market has been softening for at least two years, (locally anyway), and the fact is that a large percentage of the buyer pool simply evaporated after March because of the drastic changes to the home mortgage market. This coupled with the many other factors discussed above force sellers to price competitively or risk lingering on the market with little or no chance of selling. We don’t anticipate any price increases in the foreseeable future. Over-pricing now will simply add one more un-saleable listing to the existing over-supply of inventory. However, sellers willing to price competitively can sell, and even with the over-supply of inventory certain property types will garner a lot of interest and even multiple offers, just not like 3 to 5 years ago. A good agent with many years of experience, (we recommend at least 10 years selling a minimum of 20 homes per year), can best advise you where to price and if your property is of the type that will generate a lot of interest. Sellers that have equity and looking to buy another home should not hesitate as any loss they may actually incur or perceive will be made up by the seller on their replacement purchase. In general, our best advice to a seller that doesn’t have a strong desire or need to sell is simply not to list their home for sale at the present time.

Buyers…
Some buyers have been sitting and waiting for an opportunity to buy low and save money. That window is closing fast! Don’t expect interest rates to do a u-turn and improve real soon, and it could get worse before it gets better. With interest rates on the rise waiting may actually cost a buyer more! Prices may soften further but by waiting to purchase, the cost of owning a home with higher payments caused by increasing interest rates could cost a buyer thousands! Furthermore, although most buyers we talk to think prices will drop further, wanting that to happen doesn’t guarantee that they will! Buyers should consider that on an average priced home a buyer may need to see values drop another $50,000 just to break even, so delaying a purchase now probably doesn’t make financial sense. First-time buyers should be motivated even further by calculating how much money they are throwing away on rent and having no tax write off. There are many homes to choose from and it is a buyer’s market. That being said, buyers should not get too cocky or aggressive with their offers when they see a home they really like, because as mentioned in the seller’s commentary, there are certain property types that will continue to receive multiple offers. Again, this is where the advice of an experienced and trustworthy agent can be the difference between success and failure. In general, our best advice to a buyer is to buy now, play safe and secure a good fixed rate loan, and then plan to enjoy the property until the market gets back into another upward cycle; it’s simply a matter of time.

*Investors (large multi-unit apartments, commercial, retail, office space, etc)…
These markets move and react differently than the single family home market, have totally different financing options, and need to be evaluated by an expert. To discuss your options in these arenas contact Al Jafarkani, our resident expert with over 20 years of experience.

Today’s market is extremely complex! We are absolutely committed to providing the best advice and information to each individual customer given their situation and goals. We will continue to bring you valuable information and our market insights. We need your continued support and referrals and we earnestly invite your questions and feedback. Please keep them coming!


--
Undisputed BBR Karaoke Champion! Care to challenge me?
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