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funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
 ·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Skype
4 edits |  Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
WHAT: A device that monitors P2P activity and interferes with requests for the peer within Comcast to UPLOAD data (downloads appear to be not affected, uploads within Comcast are not affected, transfers already in progress are not affected, and a small percentage of the new transfer requests are still permitted),
WHERE: On the boundaries, at the point where Comcast connects to other points of the Internet,
WHEN: Earliest evidence is 6 months ago, but use appears to have increased or become more "clamped-down" recently,
WHY: To reduce costs associated with P2P bandwidth growth
HOW IT WORKS:
- The Sandvine application reads packets that are traversing the network boundary
- If the application senses that outbound P2P traffic is higher than a threshold determined by Comcast, Sandvine begins to interrupt P2P protocol sequences that would initiate a new transfer from within the Comcast network to a peer outside of the Comcast network
- The interruption is accomplished by sending a perfectly forged TCP packet (correct peer, port, and sequence numbering) with the RST (reset) flag set. This packet is obeyed by the network stack or operating system which drops the connection.
In eDonkey connections, for example, queued UPLOADS (to others) will not be honored to some percentage of non-Comcast P2P users. Immediately after the peer requests ranges to be transferred, the connection is dropped in the above manner. Gnutella transfers are similarly affected in the same manner.
In BitTorrent connections, the RST message is sent well after the handshake, and often after some data has been exchanged. The Sandvine filter interferes during lulls (NOOP and HAVE commands) as well as the moment of transition from the ending of sending one complete piece. When I am not using Comcast, BitTorrent disconnections due to peer resets (RST flag) are 3%. Using Comcast, 39% of connections are terminated using the RST flag.
In Summary: The Sandvine filter has taken steps to try to make the filtering experience innocuous (nearly invisible) to the user. Some transfers are allowed, the interruption seems to come from the distant peer, and it relies on the P2P protocol being used to either find another peer (hopefully a Comcast one) or retry that peer later.
WHY THIS MAY BE GOOD:
- There is reduced cost, and perhaps higher download and upload speeds for everyone (regardless of P2P use), if P2P data requests can be fulfilled entirely within the Comcast network.
- Because a peer will retry to get a file or a piece of a file, uploads are merely delayed. The peer may have to return to the back of a queue and go through the above cycle several times before the transfer request is honored.
WHY THIS MAY BE BAD:
- The decision whether to interrupt a transfer is without regard as to whether there are non-Comcast sources for a file. For example, an amateur band releasing their music on the P2P networks is at a disadvantage. The time it would take to get a complete copy of a music file to a point outside of the Comcast network is dramatically increased.
- Comcast is not the only customer for Sandvine and the like. Other ISPs will and have adopted this and similar technologies and tactics. As they do, the amount of outgoing P2P data that each allows on the wire becomes a competitive element.
- Some P2P networks punish non-sharers. Upon detecting that files offered for sharing cannot be transferred, the network can reduce access to the peer that cannot transfer.
MY OPINION:
I tried to write the above evenhandedly.
As an enthusiast, I use P2P for an IPTV application, Skype, and to deliver Ubuntu Linux and Shareaza, two open-source applications. My music is Tin-Pan Alley and I really watch very few movies. I'm not the guy that RIAA or the MPAA are looking for: I like old ragtime music, historical film, and old magazines. But I know the P2P protocols very well I and noticed something was wrong a few months ago.
What cracked the case for me was when I was telling someone in Brazil about the upload resets (error 10053), and he offered me a VPN connection for comparison. No drops.
The protocol analyzer told the "RST" of the story. And yesterday, I learned about Sandvine and got word from another Sandvine customer that they're bragging about their Comcast deployment in order to make sales.
I am not against this, per se. They are allowing some P2P sharing to points outside of their network, even though they can detect and prevent it. I might even be able to live with it, if I knew exactly what to expect and how to override it if it was stupidly hampering something. (I am convinced it is designed to make P2P prefer Comcast clients when possible, but not designed to hamper communications when there are no alternatives).
However:
- I have always paid for unfettered internet access. No filtering, please. It wasn't filtered when I first signed up, I don't want it filtered now. In this case, they are filtering ME!!
- These are being installed silently -- why? Why not install them noisily, and provoke action on the makers of P2P applications to seek out peers with lower TTLs (translation: electrically closer, more likely to be 'in-network').
- These smart filters are still rather dumb. After a threshold is reached, the interrupting of new transfer requests is made. The app doesn't know whether or not the transfer is important or unimportant, rare or common. (And do we really want our ISP deciding what is important and urgent to us?)
P2P is not illegal. People are currently downloading more media than they can possibly use in a lifetime -- that fruitless task is a fad that will wear off. Comcast may have had what they thought was a good idea, here. But, as implemented, it is having bad effects and puts Comcast in the seat of interfering with my end-to-end client communications.
Update requested by funchords  :
** Updated information 2007-08-29 -- »UPDATE Re Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connection
** See also these topics ---> »[Speed] There are good resets and there are bad resets...
»Man, more fishy stuff going on with Comcast and bittorent?
»[Speed] workaround for Comcast Throttling issues.. (torrent)
»[NEWS] Comcast 'Delaying' Not 'Blocking' Traffic
»Comcast, Sandvine, and the latest WoW patch (v2.3.0)
»FCC to investigate Comcast sandvine packet blocking - YES!!!
»Comcast and P2P filtering (Sandvine)
»Richard Bennett: It'll be like DSL, only Faster
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~ | |
|  DoYouKnowMe
join:2007-05-13
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections While I feel your pain, since you are a residential customer (I am presuming), you are bound by the Terms Of Service agreement that was provided to you at time of sign-up and which is easily accessible through their website. A few key passages:
"We may change our prices, fees, the Services and/or the terms and conditions of this Agreement in the future. Unless this Agreement or applicable law specifies otherwise, we will give you thirty (30) days prior Notice of any significant change to this Agreement. If you find the change unacceptable, you have the right to cancel your Service(s). However, if you continue to receive Service(s) after the end of the notice period (the "Effective Date") of the change, we will consider that you have accepted the changes. You may not modify this Agreement by making any typed, handwritten, or any other changes to it for any purpose."
"4. CHANGES TO SERVICES
Subject to applicable law, we have the right to change our Services, Comcast Equipment and rates or charges, at any time with or without notice. We also may rearrange, delete, add to or otherwise change programming or features or offerings contained in the Services, including but not limited to, content, functionality, hours of availability, customer equipment requirements, speed and upstream and downstream rate limitations. If we do give you notice, it may be provided on your monthly bill, as a bill insert, in a newspaper or other communication permitted under applicable law. If you find a change in the Service(s) unacceptable, you have the right to cancel your Service(s). However, if you continue to receive Service(s) after the change, this will constitute your acceptance of the change. Please take the time to read any notices of changes to the Service(s). We are not liable for failure to deliver any programming, services, features or offerings except as provided in Section 11e."
"7. USE OF SERVICES
You agree that the Services and the Comcast Equipment will be used only by you and the members of your immediate household living with you at the same address and only for personal, residential, non-commercial purposes, unless otherwise specifically authorized by us in writing. You will not use the Comcast Equipment at any time at an address other than the Premises without our prior written authorization. You agree and represent that you will not resell or permit another to resell the Services in whole or in part. You will not use or permit another to use the Comcast Equipment or the Service(s), directly or indirectly, for any unlawful purpose, including, but not limited to, in violation of any posted Comcast policy applicable to the Services. Use of the Comcast Equipment or Services for transmission, communications or storage of any information, data or material in violation of any U.S. federal, state or local regulation or law is prohibited.
You acknowledge that you are accepting this Agreement on behalf of all persons who use the Comcast Equipment and/or Services and that you shall have sole responsibility for ensuring that all other users understand and comply with the terms and conditions of this Agreement and any applicable Comcast policies including, but not limited to, acceptable use and privacy policies. You further acknowledge and agree that you shall be solely responsible for any transactions, including, without limitation, purchases made through or in connection with the Services. You agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Comcast and its affiliates, suppliers, and agents against all claims and expenses (including reasonable attorney fees) arising out of the use of the Services, the Comcast Equipment and/or the Customer Equipment or the breach of this Agreement or any of the applicable Comcast policies by you or any other user."
Now, they key point to the use of Sandvine, of which I have not confirmed due to lack of research ( I am lazy ), is pointed out in Section 7. A P2P connection requires you to "authorize" someone else to use the service for a potentially unlawful purpose. Not that any company wants to think that their customers are out to do wrong, but to physically track EVERY connection and monitor the connection's contents would: a)be an unlawful invasion of privacy, b)cost an enormous amount of money, c)create an undesirable product as all costs would be passed on to the consumer ( even higher monthly charges ) and cause bandwidth availability to drop ( slower speeds ).
Naturally, a company would seek to be proactive rather than reactive to a hot topic issue that is greatly influenced by one of their services, such as the use of P2P to violate copyrights or the proliferation of malicious software. The end results are an improved corporate image, which from what I understand, is something that Comcast REALLY, REALLY needs any way they can get it, and to hinder all the responsible subscribers who use the service legally.
In "short" (lol) blame the idiots out there who force ISP's to take this action or have them do you some "favors" | |
| | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections said by DoYouKnowMe :While I feel your pain, since you are a residential customer (I am presuming), you are bound by the Terms Of Service agreement that was provided to you at time of sign-up and which is easily accessible through their website. A few key passages: ... "7. USE OF SERVICES You agree that the Services and the Comcast Equipment will be used only by you and the members of your immediate household living with you at the same address and only for personal, residential, non-commercial purposes, unless otherwise specifically authorized by us in writing. You will not use the Comcast Equipment at any time at an address other than the Premises without our prior written authorization. You agree and represent that you will not resell or permit another to resell the Services in whole or in part. You will not use or permit another to use the Comcast Equipment or the Service(s), directly or indirectly, for any unlawful purpose, including, but not limited to, in violation of any posted Comcast policy applicable to the Services. Use of the Comcast Equipment or Services for transmission, communications or storage of any information, data or material in violation of any U.S. federal, state or local regulation or law is prohibited. ... Now, they key point to the use of Sandvine, of which I have not confirmed due to lack of research ( I am lazy ), is pointed out in Section 7. A P2P connection requires you to "authorize" someone else to use the service... I suppose you could look at it that way, but...wouldn't that mean that I am authorizing my sister to use my AT&T service by giving her my 'pacbell.net' email address?
P2P is not "reselling" the service, nor is it "sharing" the connection. Talk about Google getting a free ride on Ed Whitacre's "pipes"! I guess Brian Robers thinks a lot like Ed Whitacre, in the end.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| rody_44
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA
 ·Comcast
1 edit | any facts that back up your claim? or do we just take your word on it. something in the line of real facts and not this person told this person type of stuff. salesman lie all the time. and just because you changed to vpn doesnt mean jack. i mean your routing also changed correct? | |
| |
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections said by DoYouKnowMe :A P2P connection requires you to "authorize" someone else to use the service for a potentially unlawful purpose. No more or less than an Instant Messenger connection does. All things have potentially unlawful purposes. They are not, in and of themselves, unlawful.
said by DoYouKnowMe :but to physically track EVERY connection and monitor the connection's contents would: a)be an unlawful invasion of privacy, b)cost an enormous amount of money, c)create an undesirable product as all costs would be passed on to the consumer ( even higher monthly charges ) and cause bandwidth availability to drop ( slower speeds ). Earlier in this same mentioned, you said that you had not researched this. Had you looked into it, you would have found that this technology is available today and is for sale to ISPs. The cost of the technology is offset by lower payments to backbone providers and the ability to delay expansions of capacity. With somewhere around 75% of all internet traffic being P2P, reducing that traffic that exits the network could provide substantial savings.
As for the invasion of privacy aspect, this is a grey area. It may be one reason they have silently implemented Sandvine. It is not good PR to peer into their customer's packets for the purpose of deciding whether or not they will interfere with them.
said by rody_44 : any facts that back up your claim? or do we just take your word on it. I have already presented facts. Regardless, unless you run your own tests, you'll have to decide whether to take my word on it.
I'm hoping that others will run their own tests. If they don't, I hope the facts that I'm a qualified expert on the subject, posting under my own name, will carry some weight.
said by rody_44 :something in the line of real facts and not this person told this person type of stuff. salesman lie all the time. I doubt Comcast will let me in to look. The evidence is circumstantial, but the amount is overwhelming.
Sandvine said it has signed a contract with a Tier 1 U.S. service provider ... Sandvine did not identify the company, but it said its new customer has over 5 million residential high-speed Internet subscribers.
Sandvine already counts top U.S. cable provider Comcast Corp among its customers, Barron's said.
said by rody_44 : and just because you changed to vpn doesnt mean jack. i mean your routing also changed correct? And so did my packet size. I have accounted for the latter with some other testing. For the former, one should need a VPN endpoint that terminates within Comcast at some points other than Hillsboro, OR..
Once you have that, then this testing is not hard. Set up Wireshark and start your P2P client. Using Comcast, Sandvine will start sending TCP packets with the RST flag set. Not using Comcast, you will see very few such packets.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~ | |
| | | 
Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections Sandvine said it has signed a contract with a Tier 1 U.S. service provider to supply its 10 Gbps Policy Traffic Switch platform.
Comcast is not a Tier 1 provider. In fact, the there are only two Tier 1's on that possible list, Vz and ATT. My hunch is with ATT.
Your other article states:
"Sandvine Corp. (SVC.TO: Quote, Profile , Research) could see a boost in demand for their technologies, which could be used to give services such as Web video or voice priority over less urgent Internet traffic, according to Barron's April 9 edition." and then goes on to state "Sandvine already counts top U.S. cable provider Comcast Corp among its customers, Barron's said." | |
| | | | 
CableTool
Poorly Representing MYSELF.
Premium
join:2004-11-12 | Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections And we all know Comcast prioritizes its Voice packets. None of which have anything to do with DE prioritizing torrent traffic.
--
CableFAQ.org/Technicians Unplugged
| |
| | | |
funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
2 edits | said by Morty :Sandvine said it has signed a contract with a Tier 1 U.S. service provider to supply its 10 Gbps Policy Traffic Switch platform. Comcast is not a Tier 1 provider. In fact, the there are only two Tier 1's on that possible list, Vz and ATT. My hunch is with ATT. Then argue that point with Sandvine. Read the linked article more closely. You'll find that they were the guys that mentioned Comcast in their (rather silly) PR release.
I'm a little lost as to what you're arguing, here. Do you think Sandvine is not installed at Comcast?
If Sandvine were not installed on Comcast, and the RST-flagged packets I received were coming from other networks, then the VPN statistics and the Comcast statistics would be similar. They're not. They're very different.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~ | |
| | | | |
Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections Then read what I posted more carefully, that news release isn't about Comcast. It states their new subscriber is a tier 1 ISP, Comcast and TW are Tier 2 ISPs, that leaves you with Vz and ATT. The other news release that mentions Comcast as an existing subscriber (which pretty much every telcom equipment company falls under at some point) doesn't state anything about the service in which you are talking about. While it's all nice to speculate and try and stir stuff up, this is an internet help forum. Maybe you want to also post this in the Comcast.net forums to see if you get an actual answer from Comcast about it? | |
| | | | | | 
jbob
Reach Out and Touch Someone
Premium
join:2004-04-26
Little Rock, AR
·Comcast
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections said by Morty : While it's all nice to speculate and try and stir stuff up, this is an internet help forum. Maybe you want to also post this in the Comcast.net forums to see if you get an actual answer from Comcast about it? Actually it says at the very top of this forum:
quote:
The Comcast forum is for discussions about Comcast's cable internet service; its use, availability, features, customer service issues and general information.
Sounds like an appropriate discussion to me. | |
| | | | | | |
Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections The issue is you can't really have a great discussion over something that is 100% speculated. If it was known that Comcast actually uses this product, for the reasons stated in the op's thread, then I can see why it would be useful. But at the current time, without more information it isn't very useful. With my recommendation, you'd at least get an answer from Comcast, and from there an actual, informed discussion of the subject could take place. I stated that it was a help forum, and thank you for posting what I said in different words (the ones it says at the top), informed "discussions" into things relating to Comcast's HSI and CDV are helpful, ones filled with "he said, she said" are not. | |
| | | | | | | |
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections Joe,
You still have me lost. What is your concern, again? I told you what the tests were, I told you what the results were. It is observable!
Do you think that the forums at Comcast.net is a placed to have an informed discussion about this? If you do, then I understand why I am lost.
Why on Earth would I discuss an issue that I want brought into the light on a Comcast-controlled forum? The users on those forums are not informed. I'm not asking whether Comcast is filtering -- it is a fact. I've demonstrated it, published my methods and my results, and you can reproduce it.
My objectives are this:
1. To end the secrecy around this project
2. To explain a phenomena that others users may be experiencing
That's it. I'm not stirring anything up. Facts and evidence have no agenda. I've added my opinion -- quite separately from the facts. But, as the "stir machine" goes, my opinion on the matter is relatively tame.
Now, instead of repeating what you've said, do you have anything to add?
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~ | |
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Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections There are no facts posted. Just because you believe it does not make it a fact. Your articles contradict each other, and the other states nothing about the described product in question from this vendor. I did not suggest having the discussion in that forum, I suggested asking for an answer in that forum as to whether or not they actually use it. If they say they do, then sure you can actually have a discussion over it. | |
| | | | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by Morty :Sandvine said it has signed a contract with a Tier 1 U.S. service provider to supply its 10 Gbps Policy Traffic Switch platform. Comcast is not a Tier 1 provider. In fact, the there are only two Tier 1's on that possible list, Vz and ATT. My hunch is with ATT. That would be worrisome. Not that it, necessarily would involve me directly; the tier 1 AT&T backbone is part of AT&T Worldnet services, and my routing generally doesn't touch that backbone:
05/13/07 23:19:05 Slow traceroute 74.208.13.161
Trace 74.208.13.161 ...
192.168.102.1 RTT: 1ms TTL:170 (chihiro.aosake.net ok)
192.168.0.1 RTT: 2ms TTL:170 (suzuka.aosake.net ok)
69.105.119.254 RTT: 10ms TTL:170 (adsl-69-105-119-254.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net ok)
64.164.97.67 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (dist2-vlan50.pltn13.pbi.net ok)
151.164.93.239 RTT: 15ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
151.164.94.47 RTT: 13ms TTL:170 (ex2-p12-0.eqsjca.sbcglobal.net ok)
151.164.248.250 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (as174.eqsjca.sbcglobal.net ok)
154.54.6.85 RTT: 12ms TTL:170 (t3-1.mpd01.sjc03.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
154.54.6.81 RTT: 12ms TTL:170 (v3490.mpd01.sjc01.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
154.54.2.53 RTT: 59ms TTL:170 (t7-1.mpd02.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
154.54.6.41 RTT: 61ms TTL:170 (t2-2.mpd01.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
154.54.2.217 RTT: 61ms TTL:170 (g11-0-0.core01.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
66.28.6.238 RTT: 60ms TTL:170 (g0-2.na21.b005948-0.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
38.112.2.194 RTT: 70ms TTL:170 (schlund-partner.demarc.cogentco.com probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
74.208.1.65 RTT: 60ms TTL:170 (te-1-1.bb-a.slr.lxa.us.oneandone.net ok)
74.208.1.102 RTT: 60ms TTL:170 (te-1-2.gw-distp-b.slr.lxa.oneandone.net ok)
74.208.1.168 RTT: 62ms TTL:170 (ae-1.gw-prtr-r5-b.slr.lxa.oneandone.net ok)
74.208.13.161 RTT: 78ms TTL: 51 (server.elitebusinesschoice.com ok)
05/13/07 23:17:54 Slow traceroute 68.34.175.134
Trace 68.34.175.134 ...
192.168.102.1 RTT: 1ms TTL:170 (chihiro.aosake.net ok)
192.168.0.1 RTT: 3ms TTL:170 (suzuka.aosake.net ok)
69.105.119.254 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (adsl-69-105-119-254.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net ok)
64.164.97.66 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (dist1-vlan50.pltn13.pbi.net ok)
151.164.93.231 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (bb1-g15-0.pltnca.sbcglobal.net ok)
151.164.191.201 RTT: 12ms TTL:170 (ex1-p9-0.eqsjca.sbcglobal.net ok)
12.122.79.101 RTT: 15ms TTL:170 (gar7.sffca.ip.att.net fraudulent rDNS)
12.122.85.142 RTT: 88ms TTL:170 (tbr2033101.sffca.ip.att.net probable bogus rDNS: No DNS)
12.122.10.41 RTT: 88ms TTL:170 (tbr1.sl9mo.ip.att.net fraudulent rDNS)
12.122.10.29 RTT: 87ms TTL:170 (tbr1.wswdc.ip.att.net fraudulent rDNS)
12.122.2.86 RTT: 84ms TTL:170 (tbr2.phlpa.ip.att.net fraudulent rDNS)
12.123.137.213 RTT: 81ms TTL:170 (gar3.phlpa.ip.att.net fraudulent rDNS)
12.118.114.14 RTT: 105ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
68.86.211.9 RTT: 124ms TTL:170 (te-7-1-ar01.audubon.nj.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.208.26 RTT: 115ms TTL:170 (po-10-ar01.wallingford.pa.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.211.146 RTT: 120ms TTL:170 (po-92-ur01.claymont.de.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.209.98 RTT: 86ms TTL:170 (po-10-ur01.norristown.pa.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.209.102 RTT: 87ms TTL:170 (po-10-ur02.norristown.pa.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.209.169 RTT: 122ms TTL:170 (po-90-ur01.plymouthmtng.pa.panjde.comcast.net ok)
* * * failed
68.34.175.134 RTT: 98ms TTL:109 (c-68-34-175-134.hsd1.pa.comcast.net ok)
This bids fair to become a "Net Neutrality" issue. I can see big money in Hollywood, and political pressure applied to use Sandvine (and Ellacoya) to eliminate the freewheeling nature of the Internet.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| | | | | tdumaine
join:2004-03-14
Redmond, WA | Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections Wheres the line when it becomes illegal? If i alter packets going to someones computer, im doing so unauthorized and am in trouble, am i not? | |
| | | | | | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections said by tdumaine :Wheres the line when it becomes illegal? AFAIK, there is no such line under the law, just an ages old Internet tradition codified in the RFCs. To the extent that the RFCs amount to anything akin to a code.
If i alter packets going to someones computer, im doing so unauthorized and am in trouble, am i not?
Probably in violation of one, or another RFC, but not of any law that I am aware of. I am pretty sure that this service would not be offered if it was illegal to alter packets in transit.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| 
fuziwuzi
Not born yesterday
Premium
join:2005-07-01
Atlanta, GA
| The few times I've used bittorrent transfers in the last few weeks I have noticed many disconnects on the up side. I didn't know what was causing it, but your analysis makes sense now.
Now if only the Comcast network was as fast as their fanboys who quickly denounce any criticism of them.  | |
| |
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections said by fuziwuzi :The few times I've used bittorrent transfers in the last few weeks I have noticed many disconnects on the up side. I didn't know what was causing it, but your analysis makes sense now. Glad I could help.
said by fuziwuzi :Now if only the Comcast network was as fast as their fanboys who quickly denounce any criticism of them. LOL, well I'm mostly a fan-boy too. I even think this Sandvine idea is well-intended, albeit misguided.
I imagine a lot of P2P these days are popular CDs and Movies. These being copyright violations aside, I'm sure that for any given highly-popular file, enough sources exist within Comcast's netblocks to fill any request quickly. That's smart. I'm sure that's what they were thinking, too.
The problem is that not every file is so popular, the rare files (and those most likely to be completely legal to share, BTW), are badly punished by this filter.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~ | |
| NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by funchords :WHO: Comcast and Sandvine, a peer-to-peer (P2P) management application, WHAT: A device that monitors P2P activity and interferes with requests for the peer within Comcast to UPLOAD data (downloads appear to be not affected, uploads within Comcast are not affected, transfers already in progress are not affected, and a small percentage of the new transfer requests are still permitted)... Well? Which is Sandvine? Application? Or device?
»www.sandvine.com/products/policy···itch.asp
Looks like device, not application. Oh, and here is a competitor:
»www.ellacoya.com/
It seems to me that Comcast is spending money on the wrong equipment. Instead of throttling their users, shouldn't they be adding capacity?
That question is, largely, rhetorical. As the messenger, I hardly expect you to be able to answer it, anyway.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| | 
hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections said by NormanS :It seems to me that Comcast is spending money on the wrong equipment. Instead of throttling their users, shouldn't they be adding capacity? That question is, largely, rhetorical. As the messenger, I hardly expect you to be able to answer it, anyway. Sandvine can do and does everything that the OP has stated. It also can spot users who unknowingly are spamming the world and shut off their mail access, a subject you talk about continuously.
It certainly was used by Adelphia, whether Comcast are using it I don't know but it certainly sounds feasible.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
| |
| | | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections said by hobgoblin :Sandvine can do and does everything that the OP has stated. It also can spot users who unknowingly are spamming the world and shut off their mail access, a subject you talk about continuously. It would cost Comcast less to just block outbound port 25 than to spend a wad of money on monitoring hardware which, by my MTA logs, doesn't seem to be working, anyway; assuming that they are employing Sandvine boxes to monitor SMTP traffic.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| | | | 
paco
@comcast.net
thumbs down from:
Jim Gurd
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections funchords stated:
"The users on those forums are not informed."
Wow !!!!! What a blanket statement !!!
I'd say that it is you who are uninformed about the users at the Comcast forums  | |
| | | | |
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections said by paco :funchords stated: "The users on those forums are not informed." Wow !!!!! What a blanket statement !!! I'd say that it is you who are uninformed about the users at the Comcast forums Sorry.
"The users on those forums are not anywhere as nearly informed as they are here at BBR."
I've been here at BBR for a long time, and I've been a Comcast customer for a long time, too -- and yes, I've been to the forums.
Blanket statement -- okay, but I've seen both blankets. So what's wrong with that?
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~ | |
| | | | 
Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
| said by NormanS :It would cost Comcast less to just block outbound port 25 than to spend a wad of money on monitoring hardware which, by my MTA logs, doesn't seem to be working, anyway; assuming that they are employing Sandvine boxes to monitor SMTP traffic. If you look at what sandvine product can do it's more than just detect outbound spam. It appears to be more of a general purpose firewall that can do deep packet inspection and take action on what it finds, be that P2P use or outbound spam or a worm.
I will say this however, the behavior of bittorrent on my end has changed within the last month. It seems to take longer to get started and as I look at the list of peers right now it shows all peers I'm connected were inbound connections. That doesn't prove anything (it could just be that I've had the torrent running long enough that new peers find me before I find them) but I have noticed a bit of a difference.
--
Revolution!!!... or some such nonsense. | |
| | | | | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections said by Combat Chuck :If you look at what sandvine product can do it's more than just detect outbound spam. It appears to be more of a general purpose firewall that can do deep packet inspection and take action on what it finds, be that P2P use or outbound spam or a worm. Just giving the goblin some feedback on his comments. What Comcast does; well, it is their network, none of us get to say how they run it.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| | | |
hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| said by NormanS :It would cost Comcast less to just block outbound port 25 than to spend a wad of money on monitoring hardware which, by my MTA logs, doesn't seem to be working, anyway; assuming that they are employing Sandvine boxes to monitor SMTP traffic. How much does a Sandvine Box cost?
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
| |
| | | | | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
2 edits | Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections System glitch double post. How rare. | |
| | | | | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by hobgoblin :How much does a Sandvine Box cost? How much does it cost to add port 25 to an ACL?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| comtec5
join:2006-02-06
Glen Burnie, MD | we do indeed use sanvines on each cmts | |
| | 
Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state
3 edits | Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections said by comtec5 :we do indeed use sanvines on each cmts While you are correct that sandvine is in use and has been for quite some time, it is not used "on" a CMTS. Sandvine works hand in hand with the PacketCable protocol and acts as an application gateway.
This thread is going to garner hate towards sandvine because everyone is basing one users experiences to how things will always work and assuming Sandvine is something installed specifically to block/throttle p2p...that is not the case as there FAR CHEAPER solutions to that issue, many already built into current CMTS's which would negate the need of ever having a Sandvine box and policy server.
Sandvine is an integral application used by quite a few providers that HELPS with bandwidth for P2P, gaming, VOIP, etc. Are there cases where it will cause you to get lower P2P speeds, yes, but there are also cases where it will help with your general latency and will IMPROVE your p2p download speeds.
Sandvine even has a profile for Xbox Live clients (whether this is in use widespread is not known to me, but I know it was used at one point in my area)
Sandvines use at Comcast is not primarily as a P2P blocker, anyone who tells you that is lying or uninformed.
--
Forum Posts:7500 | |
| | | Sadimitsu
join:2005-06-07
Pittsburg, CA
3 edits | Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections It's sure blocking me! I didn't notice it untill yesterday but I can't seed anything on bittorrent now. My ratios are horrible and now I will be banned etc etc. It's not even a slow upload, I really can't seed torrents AT ALL. I get a fat 0 kB/s. I've been a loyal comcast customer for years now, hell even before comcast owned the place and it was @home. I've put up with downtime and crappy service for a very very long time but one good thing i could always say was "When it works it works good" now I can't even say that anymore. I didn't get the higher upload speeds for nothing, I'm paying all this extra money and now I can't even freaking use my upload speed. Someone please tell me, what the hell is my upload for if I can't send anything to people because comcast is blocking me?
Bittorrent is really useless now, i'm sure everyone knows that BT DL speed is connected to your upload speed. If you're not uploading you won't DL anything at a decent speed. Thanks a lot comcast
This is beyond bullshit | |
| | | |
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections said by Sadimitsu :It's sure blocking me! I didn't notice it untill yesterday but I can't seed anything on bittorrent now. My ratios are horrible and now I will be banned etc etc. It's not even a slow upload, I really can't seed torrents AT ALL. I get a fat 0 kB/s. That is not my experience at all (I started this thread, and I started it with data.) Something else is probably going on with your situation -- but your experience and my experience are not the same.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~ | |
| | | | impulse101
join:2007-01-30
Beachwood, NJ | use newsgroups get Giganews and go for the encryption service. done. | |
| | |
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| said by Qumahlin :This thread is going to garner hate towards sandvine because everyone is basing one users experiences to how things will always work and assuming Sandvine is something installed specifically to block/throttle p2p...that is not the case No hate from me about using the technology, but the users need to be let in on it, so that we can get support when we need it.
Whoever adjusts these things has made it impossible to upload files on Gnutella. Every _single_request_ is met with an injected RST packet that drops the connection (as of about 6 weeks ago, when I last tested this). ED2K uploads are dropped a majority of the time, but there some uploading does occur. BitTorrent seems to be the least affected (see my results at the top of this thread).
How do I report this to Comcast Support, who is trained to respond that Comcast does not filter P2P?
IMHO, P2P is low-priority, passive internet use. If a customer is installing a QoS router at his house, P2P is always the thing that gets the last priority. I don't mind that Comcast uses the same prioritization as anyone else would use, but I do mind not being able to upload at all (on Gnutella) and not being able to do anything about it.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
~ Keeper of the D-Link FAQ ~ Did you Search? ~ More features, Free! Join BBR! ~ | |
| | 
Nerdtalker
Working Hard, Or Hardly Working?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ
clubs:
| Intriguing; has this technology been deployed across all markets? I ask this because I seed at the upstream cap all the time, a number of private trackers I use simply require it, so it's become force-of-habit.
I guess the question becomes whether using traffic prioritization software really is an issue, so long as the behavior is transparent to the user. To be honest, what's ironic about the whole thing is that if this really has been deployed for so long, it's been an amazingly well-guarded secret. The question then becomes, is it really doing anything if nobody has noticed it this long?
Qualitative/subjective analysis aside, I think this really is a non-issue so long as it doesn't adversely affect the end result. I'm pretty pleased overall with latency, especially in online games, and, to be honest, having Comcast do some of the network prioritization for latency-critical protocols makes sense; it's less CPU-load for my m0n0wall.
--
"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn
I'm testing Gmail's spam filters: Broadbandreports1@gmail.com
Spam: 12900+ messages currently using 406 MB. | |
| | Sadimitsu
join:2005-06-07
Pittsburg, CA | Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections Believe me buddy its damn noticible, and like you i'm part of sites that demand I upload in return or else I face being banned which is what will happen now that comcast has decided to screw people over. Again. | |
| | |
billygoat
@secureix.com
| Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections Hey sad, Why don't you try getting the premium VPN account from secureix.com My upload speeds have remain at the max since I signed up. I, like you, sat at that fat 0 before. 9.95 extra a month to me is worth it. They also have a few day trial for you to test it first. | |
| | | | Sadimitsu
join:2005-06-07
Pittsburg, CA | Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections Thanks a lot for your suggestion, I will try it out. | |
| kcisobderf
join:2002-12-29
Ann Arbor, MI
| For what it's worth, I'm in Ann Arbor, MI, and I can D/L and seed torrents. I don't do much other than apps and texts, but I did make a 1+ ratio on a 12GB file last week. I use uTorrent 1.6.1.
My question is on a different aspect, possibly involving the traffic shaping debate. On that 12GB file, I had upwards of 80 peers, in a swarm of 400 or so. I didn't do much upload over 40kB/s, but other activities, like browsing were painfully slow. I have a 100/1000 card in a PCI slot and network utilization was very low. Is it a matter of my cable "modem", local cable loop, or the alleged Sandvine P2P throttling?
Thanks for any ideas! | |
| 
Obliteration
Premium
join:2005-09-18
Somewhere
4 edits | Yep, it has been sucking badly lately. I was able to upload 20MB in almost 2 hrs which is horrible. The screenshot is just above to show it. Never had this probably till recently as well.(I try to be nice and only use it for anime releases from Japan but apparently Comcast doesn't like that so barely noticed it)
I'm looking at getting banned from the torrent pretty soon at this rate since anything under .5 is considered pretty bad by most torrents sites .06 isn't going to cut it. If this isn't fixed by Saturday morning, I'm calling Comcast to cancel all their services and switch to AT&T now that they decided to serve DSL here.
$34.99 a month is actually cheaper and only downside is that there is no boost. Up side is no throttling and cheaper.
Signals are great, everything is fine. Pretty sure it is this new Comcast filter as there has been no other variable changes.
EDIT: Worked for a while at full speed before resetting to zero.
I'm also attaching a screen shot of that.(I had it limited at that amount on that second torrent screen shot)
--
The best signature out there. | |
| |
sddsd
@ey.com | Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections The trick for BT is to turn on encryption, that's the
only way I can seed. | |
| |
billygoat
@nibble.net | Try a VPN service guys. Not to mention the additional benefits alongside it.
I am currently using secureix.com | |
| | | 
Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Boston, MA | Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections Online petitions are useful and effective. | |
| 
Maarvin
Premium
join:2005-04-11
Denver, CO | There are some things that you can do to minimize the filtering. One, stop your "Routing and Remote Access Service". Two, in Azureus, Tools --> Options --> Transfer --> Use Lazy Bitfield. If this doesn't help, try encryption. | |
| |
See 7 replies to this post | |
cablejoe
join:2002-01-15
Las Vegas, NV
1 edit | Playing the devil's advocate, here:
Let's say you own a restaurant that offers an all-you-can-eat buffet. People come in, pay for their meal, eat their fill, and then leave. And everyone is happy.
But then someone develops a machine that can eat for them, even when they're not around. They bring this machine into your restaurant, tell it what food to get, and leave the machine there to eat for them. And the machine eats.....and eats...and eats. It's basically eating 24-7, even when the owners aren't there.
You soon discover that a small handful of these eating machines are responsible for 90% of your food costs. What's more, your regular customers are complaining because there's not enough food left to feed everyone else.
As the restaurant owner, what do you do? Do you bite your lip while your food costs go through the roof? Or do you find a way of dealing with the machines, and limit their consumption? | |
| |
See 15 replies to this post | |
JJV
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Seattle, WA
clubs:
·Vonage
| I have been using Skype to do video with my friend in Alaska for a couple years. Now it doesn't work at all. The call drops in less than 60 seconds.
Is anyone else having issues with Skype?
I have tried the relakks vpn and a free one and they both suck. | |
| | 
EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ | Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections HUHHHH????? | |
| shades
join:2001-06-26
Williamstown, NJ | is there any solution to this seeding problem, my upload speeds are terrible  | |
| | |
See 18 replies to this post | |
Anonymim
@comcast.net
| Can I get a clarification here? Lots of tutorials out there simply say to enable encryption in order to get better upload speeds with ISP who throttle torrent activity. But I'm finding that enabling encryption has little to no effect. Peers connect, I get a very brief time of upload activity, and then the speed is throttled back to zero. Peers disconnect. Rinse and repeat.
Is this Sandvine fundamentally different from standard throttling, or just a different variety? | |
| slovokia
join:2005-01-31
Belmont, CA
| I've done some more observations and reached the following conclusions. If you attempt seeding with bittorrent using encryption, Comcast will tear down the TCP connection after 30 seconds or so. I think the seeding limit is time based not bandwidth based. The heuristic appears to be if Comcast sees a TCP connection established that involves only sending data from a subscriber to another host, that connection is terminated after 30 seconds or so. I'd imagine this limit would affect any TCP flow which cannot be recognised as being "good". | |
| |
See 16 replies to this post | |
Anon
@comcast.net | Can anyone tell if the RSET packets are sent in both directions, to the comcast user and the other peer, or just to the comcast users? | |
| | | (topic locked) | |
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