TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| reply to AnonShawUser
Re: Evolution of the VoIP market?
A shakeout in the VOIP market was overdue. Too many marginal players that just can't make it any longer. Especially after the cable companies started using their huge advantage in marketing dollars and exposure.
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | This VoIP shake out kind of reminds me of the pager services. There used to be a bunch of them but they really had a winnowing out a few years ago.
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Remember safe sex does not prevent crabs. |
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to TK Junk Mail
It amazes me how people love their VoIP service at $24 a month or $199 for two years. They love to save all this money and claim that other VoIP and POTS services are too expensive (usually $15 more a month)...
However, they remain shocked or angered when their companies are starting to fold. This should be a lesson to people that phone service just can't be sold for $24 a month or less. Enjoy the savings now and just be ready to come back to the real world of telephone service. This is what a savings of $15 gets people... no dial tome.
My attitude is eat out at McDonalds one less time and put that towards reliable phone service from a company you know will be there tomorrow.
Undercutting the competition will/can only last for so long. There's also one other thing these guys forget.. in order to undercut AND stay in business for long, they need to also offer a service that is equal or superior to the very people they are trying to undercut - so far, they haven't.
... Line 'em up! Who's next?
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| reply to Transmaster
said by Transmaster  :This VoIP shake out kind of reminds me of the pager services. There used to be a bunch of them but they really had a winnowing out a few years ago. The Page has been (to a major extent) superseded by the Cell Phone. Thus it has become a niche market. |
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tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :It amazes me how people love their VoIP service at $24 a month or $199 for two years. They love to save all this money and claim that other VoIP and POTS services are too expensive (usually $15 more a month)... However, they remain shocked or angered when their companies are starting to fold. This should be a lesson to people that phone service just can't be sold for $24 a month or less. Enjoy the savings now and just be ready to come back to the real world of telephone service. This is what a savings of $15 gets people... no dial tome. My attitude is eat out at McDonalds one less time and put that towards reliable phone service from a company you know will be there tomorrow. Undercutting the competition will/can only last for so long. There's also one other thing these guys forget.. in order to undercut AND stay in business for long, they need to also offer a service that is equal or superior to the very people they are trying to undercut - so far, they haven't. ... Line 'em up! Who's next? Ditto. But there will still be those "cult" types who will almost just die as not to go back to the likes of "AT&T" type service. And for every "Oh, my service was outstanding", there's a "my service sucked". SOOOO as they say, that is that. While the Voip die hards bounce from cheap provider to cheap provider, I'm afraid in a few years, only the TELCO's will be selling IP based communications and these MOM and POP companies will be few and far between.  |
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knightmb
join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN
·Comcast
 ·Vonage
 ·Speakeasy
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :It amazes me how people love their VoIP service at $24 a month or $199 for two years. They love to save all this money and claim that other VoIP and POTS services are too expensive (usually $15 more a month)... However, they remain shocked or angered when their companies are starting to fold. This should be a lesson to people that phone service just can't be sold for $24 a month or less. Enjoy the savings now and just be ready to come back to the real world of telephone service. This is what a savings of $15 gets people... no dial tome. Am I angry that Packet 8 went under? No, never used them and didn't work for them so I can't speak much to that effect. Am I happy that I have 6 lines (had for years now) through Vonage and saved a ton of money and never had any more outages than what my DSL provider had (like 1 or 2 over the last few years, on weekends, no business interrupted) Heck yeah I'm happy.
Have you seen how much the most strip down line is here? $23 / Month for local service (no touch tone either), no long distance, nothing! I have only one for a inbound fax machine and for backup in case the VoIP goes down. In all these years I've never had to use it to call Vonage for anything. For $1 more I get everything that they offer and unlimited long distance to more places that I or anyone in my company would ever call. I've had my service for so long, Vonage cut me a deal on $19.95 / Month for the unlimited service (business level) A bunch of my Vonage lines do A LOT of faxing, also without issues. I don't know of any VoIP that can provide that much solid faxing capability through 6 lines on the same ISP.
Just because some companies go out of business doesn't mean all of them will go out of business. That's a very flawed logic in my opinion. There is a market for VoIP, a big one. If someone goes under, someone else will pick up the business. Did all of those Packet 8 customers give up on VoIP when they closed? No, they went to other VoIP providers. So I'll continue to enjoy my service at great savings and get a chuckle at all the doom sayers of how VoIP is going to die. I've been reading the doom sayers here for years and I continue to get the last laugh and probably will for years to come.  |
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PolarBear
The asshole formerly known as aaron8301
join:2005-01-03
Riverside, WA | FYI buddy, it weren't Packet8 that went under, but SunRocket. Just to clarify. Packet8 offered a deal (albeit a measly one) for previous SunRocket customers. |
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La Luna
Surviving Ashraful
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
·Vonage
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :It amazes me how people love their VoIP service at $24 a month or $199 for two years. They love to save all this money and claim that other VoIP and POTS services are too expensive (usually $15 more a month)... However, they remain shocked or angered when their companies are starting to fold. This should be a lesson to people that phone service just can't be sold for $24 a month or less. Enjoy the savings now and just be ready to come back to the real world of telephone service. This is what a savings of $15 gets people... no dial tome. My attitude is eat out at McDonalds one less time and put that towards reliable phone service from a company you know will be there tomorrow. Undercutting the competition will/can only last for so long. There's also one other thing these guys forget.. in order to undercut AND stay in business for long, they need to also offer a service that is equal or superior to the very people they are trying to undercut - so far, they haven't. ... Line 'em up! Who's next? A landline for "$15" more a month?? LOL, what world would that be in? Bare bones local telco landline here is $40 a month BEFORE anything is added on, like taxes, fees (which brings it up to about $60), and oh yeah, actual CALLS. Yep, that's a real bargain. Double what I'm paying for Vonage unlimited calling (including Europe) without even picking up the phone. Yes, I'd love to go back to those $200 and up monthly phone bills just for calling "long distance" to the next town over. 
If telcos actually were competitive with (not to mention truthful about) their REAL WORLD pricing, they might actually lure a few people back from VoIP. Until then, assuming a good, solid cable/dsl connection, good service with a RELIABLE VoIP company (not a private player and month to month only) will always win out. If something should happen to Vonage down the road, I'll be switching to my ISP's VoIP service.
It will be a cold day in hell before I pay a telco's exorbitant rates again.
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~~"As long as America is an infidel enemy, terrorizing it is a duty." Sayed Imam Abdul-Aziz el-Sheriff~~
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morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs:
·Charter Pipeline
·AT&T Southwest
edit:
July 23rd, @11:14PM
| reply to fiberguy
i'm sick of reading this same rant from you. i think i read it 2-3 times in various sunrocket threads and now here.
pots service is fucking cheap to provide, and your local telco monopoly makes a mint off of it and the expensive add ons like caller id, call waiting, and touch tone. caller id costs, what, 5 cents to provide? now spread that mentality over other telco services to get an idea of their profits.
you seem to be arguing that we should all head back to pots because change is scary. well fuck that and fuck at&t or whoever your local telco is. voip is here to stay. |
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wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Teliax VOIP
·Cox HSI
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :It amazes me how people love their VoIP service at $24 a month or $199 for two years. They love to save all this money and claim that other VoIP and POTS services are too expensive (usually $15 more a month)... However, they remain shocked or angered when their companies are starting to fold. This should be a lesson to people that phone service just can't be sold for $24 a month or less. Enjoy the savings now and just be ready to come back to the real world of telephone service. This is what a savings of $15 gets people... no dial tome. Nah..reliable phone service can be sold for less than $24 a month (one CLEC around here does $19.99 a month, and that's paying SBC's UNE charge), but $8 a month is not sustainable, at least not without a market much larger than currently exists.
That's the problem. Not the price, but the market. $8 a month isn't selling at a loss, it's just not paying for overhead when you only have 200,000 customers. The hardware and origination/termination fees can probably be covered for most users for that price. Only the extremely high volume customers would cause a net operating loss.
When you throw in marketing, sales, and administration, it gets dicey at that price. I think $15 a month is a lot more sustainable, but again, isn't enough to pay the overhead without a fairly large customer base.
A large customer base also allows for better pricing with the providers that most of these companies rely on. While I can go out and get a pretty good deal from the likes of VoicePulse Connect, Voxee, or any other bottom dollar termination provider, that's still more than triple what Cingular was paying WilTel to terminate their long distance several years ago. If you don't mind contracting for a few million minutes a month, they don't mind having incredibly thin margins on the per minute price.
There are a lot of companies out there who don't cater mainly to the uneducated consumer. Those are the companies that I expect to stick around. |
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Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :... Line 'em up! Who's next? I'll take a stab at that question.
How about..(Rick puts on Flame suit first) ...Viatalk?
Aren't we talking about a company here with the same business model as Sun Rocket? While we certainly don't have access to their financial statements (might be good that we don't)..I'm hard pressed to find any differences in reviewing their business model.
What model is that? Apparently to entice users to pay their whole fee up front.
You KNOW folks, you or I could EASILY pay our household expenses each month if our employers..paid us our whole yearly salary up front.
But hey..what about those nagging electric bills that will come rolling around 7 months later?
Of course, that will take you taking on a BORDER and having HIS employer pay HIM his whole yearly salary up front too...right?
Now, I know the save 3.00 bucks a month at any and all cost BBR crowd ran right over to ViaTalk at the first sign of SR's failure...
but really, you shouldn't come crying if in a few months..it's the same old song and dance coming out of viatalk..or any other similar provider...for that matter.
C'mon now folks..wake UP to reality.Ok?
Comcast and others charge 40.00 for the service (standalone...about 33.00 as part of triple play)
AT&T and Verizon..about 25.00 for their respective services.
Vonage..about the same.
How in the WORLD do you think any long lasting.legitimate company can shrink that down to the 7.00 and change some of them are?
BY COLLECTING YOUR MONEY UP FRONT.
That's how.
Far be it for me to be AT&T's biggest fan (lol)...but I do have to hand it to them for their VOIP pricing now.
20~25.00 per month unlimited is DAMN good pricing for their callvantage service. And,at least there's much more financial stability behind this company.
Doesn't VALUE..also equate to stability in the company you deal with? And, shouldn't being at least a little bit REALISTIC guide your buying habits?
To be clear about this..i'm not picking on VT. It's the whole remaining industry that is questionable IMHO.
And, until all of them post their financial statements...I think it's VERY fair to assume that if it weren't for these upfront fees...every one of them would be 6 feet under right now.
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The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! |
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to knightmb
If you notice, what I talked about was reliability. What you have is luck.. you still have no reliability.
I hear every word you say.. however, you are not one of the people I'm talking about. There are some that 'don't get it, why pay $40 when I can get it for $25'..
Why? .. how many stories pop up about ambulances that didn't make it in time, or at all.. fire trucks that don't make it.. etc. You saved some money and it worked for you.. great. What I'm still talking about is reliability. There is NO oversight on VoIP, there is no guarantee that the service will be there tomorrow. (See SunRocket) and there is nothing that protects you from a sudden, unannounced shutdown. (see SunRocket)
I know it was only a few that went under, but phone is a life line. If people want to save a few bucks, great for them! More power to them.. however, my logic is far from flawed. VoIP operated by 3rd party with no repercussions for bad or no service or stability that they will be there the next day is what I'm talking about.. and I won't gamble with my family or my own safety.
How much does that savings add up if you weren't able to get someone to your home in an emergency.. and you loose them? How much was that savings worth to you then?
It has happened, and those who laugh last are the "doom sayers"...
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." |
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to morbo
Rant?? who's ranting? And if you don't like it, don't read it. I'd say the truth hurts.
It's easy to armchair quarterback.. so I invite you do run your own business and then say how easy it is.. and how caller ID is .05 cents to offer. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about, so I'll forgive you.
One thing for sure.. I was raised properly.. I don't need to make a point by using a potty mouth either.
Seriously.. you need to calm down.
Also, do some research before you open your mouth next time, please. I am no fan of the phone company.. but further of a fan of the VoIP provider.
They have NO over sight and NO regulation and NOTHING stops them from holding you hostage without warning. Get it?? Let's regulate VoIP providers and see just how long your $25 phone service stays that price. Vonage is already creeping up because they too are passing along fees.
Really.. come back with a better part to the debate and don't just rant.
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." |
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Michieru
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL
·Speakeasy
| reply to fiberguy
The only reason why POTS provides reliability to 911 services is that it was tied in with the 911 system. The 911 system was not designed for VOIP to begin with, it was also not designed for dynamic locations.
A 911 service operator is seeing a screen, when you call all they get is the telco records of what that numbers address is tied too.
Since there is no way to move the line physically, the only way possible is to route it somewhere in a wireless fashion or route it directly to the net. Where you can be in Austria for all we know but you are using your computer to connect to your home server, and from there you open up the connection and place your call.
When you call it still shows that you are calling through your phone line, what address are they going to get? Not the one in Austria, that's for sure.
The 911 system must be updated to get GPS data from cellphones, and be able to trace the source of a call.
But then we get into the whole "privacy" issue and everyone is bent like a nail about it.
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bmfan
Premium
join:2005-03-15
Saint Helen, MI
edit:
July 24th, @03:44AM
| reply to La Luna
hmm my phone service is 13 dollars a month.. including my dsl and all the fees its 43 dollars a month |
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Big Dawg 23
join:2002-03-27
Northfield, MN
·Charter Pipeline
| reply to fiberguy
Qwest in MN offers basic for $14.76 + taxes. They want $34.99 for Local, 5 cent LD and 10 Features. Additional $25 for unlimited long distance. How does that compare to my ATT Call Vantage @ $29.99 Unlimited? It doesn't. I have the same features and service for a better price. I have had fewer service calls with Charter and At&t Call Vantage then my Qwest landline. I selected AT&T over Vonage over any other VOIP solely on the good chance Banko starts to happen. So far I made the right choice. |
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dogo88
join:2001-09-24
Old Bridge, NJ | reply to La Luna
I don't know what part of NJ you live in but i only pay about $60 for unlimited POTS. A simple, no frills, line is much less. Last time I looked(less than a year ago) a no frills line is less that $30 a month. |
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schipperke
join:1999-11-29
Potomac, MD
 ·Verizon FIOS
| reply to Rick
Maybe these VOIP companies getting a couple hundred bucks upfront, are really Hedge Funds using the VOIP business as a front
Anyway, if SR did have in excess of 200,000 subscribers, that is some serious revenue per year, lets say over $40M. I still think they were banking on being bought, but why would any larger VOIP company want them when they are already commanding a higher fee? Why would I want to buy a competitor with lower margins than I'm getting? |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to dogo88
said by dogo88 :I don't know what part of NJ you live in but i only pay about $60 for unlimited POTS. A simple, no frills, line is much less. Last time I looked(less than a year ago) a no frills line is less that $30 a month. I pay $40/mo for unlimited minutes local, state and long distance calling in US from Verizon. And they now have that same pkg for $30/mo with fewer add-ons(only 3 allowed).
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rec9140
Provoice just DO it
join:2003-07-29
Mulberry, FL
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Michieru
said by Michieru :
The 911 system must be updated to get GPS data from cellphones, and be able to trace the source of a call.
This has already occurred, but many areas do not support cellular E911 and there are various phases of this as well. You can blame PSAPS and carriers alike for the slow implementation of this. BUT....This is still not a 100% resolution to things on the cellular side.
There are areas in FLoriDUH which support Phase 2 Cellular E911. Its not perfect, trust me, the number of phantom calls that are chased to "estimated addresses" is quite annoying. Especially when you have a busy shift and these calls are treated as high priority due to the nature they could be anything. 9 out of 10 times its a nothing call, some sat on the phone and hit the 9 button, or hit the wrong key or stuffed in their bag and hit the 9 key, etc.. Along with the flat out lies..."We don't have no cell phone (as some stupid ringtone plays in the background as the call back number is called...  )
Even in the areas that don't have cellular E911, most get at least ICLID (NOT ANI) the way the calls are routed in some areas is not via 911 trunks but just a forward to a POTS line that is programmed into each cell site. With the ICLID it helps to at least call back if disconnected, but the process to trace it back to a customer, get their co-ordinates from the carrier is not speedy and is laborious on the PSAP end.
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