NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX | bandwidth
Wow uses about 20-80kbps depending on what you're doing in game.
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Mac Chatter
»www.macchatter.net |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
| Not counting voice traffic to vent servers etc. I have two frequent WOW users on my network (apt building) and have special solarwinds reporting setup on their ports to aggregate their traffic. Sometimes their upstream exceeds half a megabit when both users are talking etc. I dont care that they are playing a game, but sometimes their traffic does degrade the line for other traffic (such as my SIP/RTP/H323) and I shape their game crap back. They know who i am, bitch about the ping etc. Voice traffic game traffic and possibly on update download days (which IS bittorrent) they can chew up alot of bandwidth for a residential user. Im sure TWC just has some automated capping measure in place for upstream on their UBRs, and its just catching the wrong streams. Unfortunately cisco's NBAR doesnt recognise WOW as a valid protocol lol |
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ender7074
join:2006-11-21
Saint Louis, MO
 ·AT&T Southeast
| I see. So you think your traffic is more important than their "game crap"? I'm kinda doubting that their upload is taking that much bandwith but even if it is, so what? If that were the case, I would have severe latency issues all the time because my upstream is barley over that amount and I'm usually doing multiple things online at the same time, which include, playing a game, running vent, and downloading crap. Sounds to me like you need more bandwith than to selectively take bandwith away from others just because you think your needs are more important than their needs. |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
2 edits | Yes, because as well all know budgets for resources such as bandwidth are vast and under the direct control of those responsible for managing them. If you are only allocated a certain amount, you will do what you can with that amount, and if it means prioritizing the voice traffic of the many over the game traffic or filesharing traffic of the few, thats exactly what i will do. Furthermore, broadband is JUST LIKE a leased line in the fact that bandwidth is NOT unlimited or even as broad as the residential ISPs like TWC would like you to believe. They simply oversell their pipes so you DONT actually have your 384 or 512 up, you are sharing that same upstream with several other customers, together making up the full price of that actual bandwidth. They simply bank on the fact that not everybody will want to use that available capacity at the same time. When it IS overused (as a result of it being oversold) the same thing applies, you prioritize the most noticable traffic and start dropping the least important (and financially, that means gaming and filesharing, because most users are paying for the thing most important on their list, things like web and email and to a lesser extent voip)
I run NBAR, CBAC, and use netflow to monitor all WAN connections (and switch ports of certain LAN users). I have a very good idea of exactly how much traffic is being used by which type of application. I can sort it by destination and verify that it is to a voice server running vent, teamspeak, etc. or a MMO such as WOW, EQ2, etc. Between those, and cursory applications frequently used at the same time by users in that group, such as media intensive sites like youtube and various filesharing apps, your connection is VERY likely to be re-classified via one of my route-maps with a diffserv ~priority 0 to 3 while most normal users will be somewhat higher than that. While carriers may have larger pipes and more tolerance for this sort of thing, they are simply following the exact same formula ANY network engineer managing a fixed capacity network WILL EVENTUALLY IMPLIMENT. The first people to be impacted will be those of the media generation, and the most noticable impact will be to their gaming latency (because we all know gamers count a 25 ping increase like it will be end of the world) |
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slckusr
Premium
join:2003-03-17
Maumee, OH | reply to NOCMan
yea, i used to play wow on 28.8 3 the country. anddidnt have any issues other than a higher ping. couldnt be using THAT much bandwidth. |
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Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
 ·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to deepblackmag
WoW itself takes up little bandwidth. In some situations, it can get up to 20-30 Kb/s, but thats in the most extreme raid conditions, And it takes very little upload. The average WoW user probably wont ever excede 5-10 Kb/s.
Your talking about VoIP Traffic, which would be Ventrilo/Teamspeak/Something else. using QOS on voice servers (WoW Currently doesn't use one, so Traffic shaping Ventrilo/ect wouldn't limit WoW... unless, for some reason you decided to do both) Would not affect Wow.
Ventrilo takes up little bandwidth, actually. So does Gaming. I imagine your SIP VoIP, depending on which carrier you use/voice codec, takes up the same, if not more bandwidth.
Shaping someones traffic for downloading, such a BT/Updates I understand and agree with. Limiting apartment users gaming/voice servers, is kind of selfish. Personally, I wouldn't put up with it. |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
1 edit | Do you have any idea the CPU load on a poor old access router when trying to track and shape every connection? I dont waste processing power trying to pick out the WOW from the vent from the youtube. If you violate policy and suck up too much bandwidth you get dropped into low priority class (Your service is not degraded by my defintiion of the word, however YOU are not able to degrade the service of any other user whos traffic will be transmitted first). You are perfectly free not to put up with it, but as the only connection available to the location is via an overpriced slow leased line from XO, and most users are perfectly happy with their connectivity, I can live with a 3% to 5% dissaproval rate. Dont confuse SIP/RTP with vent/teamspeak. The functionality of the protocols is different, and the gamers like to jack up their voice quality beyond what a usual VOIP connection would use. |
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Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| DoOd!
said by deepblackmag  :Do you have any idea the CPU load on a poor old access router when trying to track every connection? I dont waste processing power trying to pick out the WOW from the vent from the youtube. Your Routers are GNarly! You need to upgrade Mon!
NV |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
1 edit | LOL if i had the money to waste on a new router for a cheapskate, id upgrade their line from a fractional T1 to a full, or something better. The only reason they can even run a decent IOS is because i sprang for their routers ram out of my own pocket.
Since you brought it up though, would you like to buy me a nice new 2811 to drop in? Id love a nice integrated services router to replace the old POS (i think its a 2610 but id have to look). |
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Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to deepblackmag
Re: bandwidth
Not really. Which provider do you use? Most of them have selectable codecs, and most of them try to use the higher end codec, for best quality. I believe most the ISP hosted sites do this, and a few of the larger VoIP companies do. Most people who just go from SIP/SIP do it also.
I have my Vent on the highest possible setting, and I can still use it on 56K. Ventrilo is pretty compressed, and I can tell you that highest Vent takes up less bandwidth then my Broadvoice connection does.
Maybe instead of punishing select users, because your hardware cant handle proper QOS, you should invest in better equipment? Especially if it's the only connection available to them.
You could even setup a cheap server PC, and prioritize traffic through software. If your hardware is so old, it cant QOS Traffic properly, might be a good idea to invest in a cheap $100-200 PC, installing linux, and using it to QOS your traffic.
Your users may "Put up with it", but if it's their only choice, I can see why. IMO, they have every right to use Vent to talk to their friends, as you do to use VoIP to talk to yours. Maybe they're talking about games, maybe your just chatting, whatever it is, it should be equal use - Just cause you have the power to prioritize what you deem as important, doesn't mean you should.
As far as a 3-5% disapproval rate... is it necessary? I doubt 3-5% of your users are using SIP.... |
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Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Just for the record:
Ventrilo, Highest quality Speex codec: Upload is 5.6 Kb/s.
Taking into consideration sometimes 2-3 people can talk at once, thats around 15 Kb/s download max.
Flying through Shat, and Sharing IL data at max rate (Probably dont know what it is, so just accept that this is maximum bandwidth, which it is :P) My WoW is running 5.5 Kb/s down, 4.5 Kb/s up. And thats for about...5-10 seconds, while it loads the 50 or so people signed in right now.
WoW/Vent isnt bandwidth intensive. Maybe these users were doing something else, but theres pretty much no way it was doing half a mb. I know people on 56K who use vent, and WoW, and get very little lag... |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
1 edit | reply to Ikarasu
I am not investing any more of my money to improve the environment for services I am not responsible for. I AM responsible for the voip latency. I am responsible for poor page load times and dropped pop3 connections. I am NOT responsible for gaming and chat, and I could care less that a few users are unhappy about it. I am being paid so that the majority of geezers sitting in their apartments can get their mail and pull up CNN in a timely fashion. Frankly the whole place is barely worth the money they are willing to pay for any services or equipment at all.
»gasmass.com/oink.png |
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Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to NOCMan
geezers pulling their email, or waiting a whole 2 seconds for a webpage to load, makes a lot more sense then degrading gameplay experience. Waiting a second or two longer to see a webpage, or get your E-mail isn't exactly a problem.
Having your b/w be prioritized, and affected by an old crappy Router, giving you latency in game, kinda makes it un-playable/unfun, which is the point of games.
I'd say 99% of ISPs prioritize gaming traffic... Not the other way around :\ |
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Ignite
Premium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK
clubs:
·BlueYonder Interne..
·Be There
| reply to NOCMan
Have to ask, why are you running all this monitoring on that old router?
Can imagine that a router that old being used as a QoS toy will be taking its' toll a bit. Have seen NBAR eat up 10% of an NPE-G1 in the past so I doubt that old thing is enjoying running it along with the SNMP polling.
How many users do you have on this fractional T1? How much are they paying?
Sounds to me like you need more bandwidth rather than QoSing down fairly minimal usage.
Yes I know it's minimal, I play WoW a fair bit myself, average bidirectional bandwidth of around 20kbps, increasing to around 40kbps when using voice chat. Hardly massive for a residential user and even at 24x7 usage less than the 12GB/month average broadband user in the UK.
Sadly customers burst every so often, such as at patch time, Windows reinstall time, etc, sad fact of life. I guess you don't have any customers smacking the line with P2P or heavy newsgroup usage much?
Sounds like you enjoy shaping 'their game crap back' a bit too much.  |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000 | reply to Ikarasu
»gasmass.com/oink.png |
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Ignite
Premium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK
clubs:
·BlueYonder Interne..
·Be There
1 edit | If you are unhappy with 2 users averaging 100kbps or so for 6 hours a day, well, I'm glad I'm not in your building 
As has already been mentioned, gaming is usually a high priority traffic on most provider networks, along with voice, SSH and other real time apps, with P2P right at the bottom and http / smtp / pop3 in the middle with other interactive apps. |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
1 edit | The line speed is positively prehistoric frame relay garbage. See my other comments about the owners not caring enough to pay for something better.
edit: My other comment is "held by system" lol whatever that means. |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
| reply to Ignite
I would agree completely that they need a faster pipe, and a better router. Shaping is a stopgap measure to keep my phone from ringing every time some retard fires up kazaa. The problem is that the owners arent interested in it (they dont see the point, arent big net users etc) so they want to use the same crap that was good 7 years ago lol. There is no point in arguing with people like that, they simply dont care and enough of their clients arent net savvy enough to use youtube so its really not worth wasting time worrying about. |
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Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to NOCMan
Well, that doesn't make sense. WoW is download heavy, same with Ventrilo/TS.
Ventrilo/TS Sends 1 voice stream to a centralized server, and that server uploads it to the rest. Warcraft's max bandwidth, which is like 6-7 KB/s both directions, is mainly downstream. The upload is very rare, and once every day at the most.
Don't know how you figured it was WoW/Vent. But if they told you that's what it is...well, maybe they're covering up File sharing. Before blaming an app/game though, you should check into what the specifications of the mentioned programs are. I can say, with 100% Certainty... Them usage stats are NOT for WoW/Vent. |
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Ignite
Premium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK
clubs:
·BlueYonder Interne..
·Be There
1 edit | reply to deepblackmag
Understood.
I guess you have to work with what you've got 
Ikarasu - those stats are from the switch ports facing those customers. When customers download the switch is transmitting to them, so it makes upload and download look the other way around as it's from the switch POV not the customer NIC. |
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