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kewaynco
join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
| [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened In the FWIW department....
I ran into the FAP this weekend by accident, after downloading updates to Itunes NPR Podcasts and not thinking about how much data it was going to be.
After conversations with help desk and supervisors, I found the email address of the sales VP for North America and emailed him the following:
I seem to be having trouble with my 30-day old experience with Hughes. I am going to be sending a nice letter to several people in your company, but thought I'd bring you up to date first.
On Sunday, August 26, I accidentally went over my 500mb/day limit (I say accidentally because I downloaded a file without knowing how big it was and had already passed the FAP limit before realizing what was going on and shutting down the download. But it was my mistake.). I noticed the problem when my Internet access began to slow down, and
then become non-existent. A quick check of the wonderful usage screen showed me the problem (but, since it is updated only once an hour instead of real time, it was over an hour before I knew I had caused the problem).
I called your wonderful technical support team only to find that no one had the authorization or ability to do anything. I thought someone might take a look at my account, see that I had it only 30 days, and that my daily download essentially was between 200mb and 300mb. I thought someone putting all those things together might have said to themselves, "We want to keep this customer and he is new to the whole thing, so, what the heck, let's cut him some slack this one time. He's learned his lesson."
Unfortunately, after a nice long conversation with Gervon, and then with Ryan Summers, no such help was forthcoming. Mr. Summers told me I could still use the Internet if I kept below 1mb per hour, but told me he could not guarantee this would not restart the 24-hour FAP period.
Not getting a guarantee, and having to use the Internet for a living, I unplugged my modem and used dial up for all day Monday, August 27.
On Monday, August 27, around the same time in the evening I spoke with Mr Summers, I called your wonderful technical support team to find out what time my FAP restriction would end. After Kelly took my information, she put me on hold for quite some time and, after coming back on line, asked if I had shut off my modem. When I said, "Yes", she informed me that was a big mistake (of course, on Sunday evening,
no one told me not to turn it off).
After she passed me to Mike Sidious, I found, once again, he had neither the authority, nor the ability to fix the problem immediately so I could once again use my Hughes Internet service. Not only that, he told me he could not talk with anyone who had the authority to fix the problem that, frankly, I believe was caused by incomplete
information being given to me on Sunday evening by Mr. Summers.
I actually find the whole thing ludicrous - first, that there is no consideration given to new users and their lack of experience, and, secondarily, that it is impossible for any human being to intervene, when necessary, in the whole FAP situation.
I have had quite a few good results when speaking with technical support, and with them very patiently explaining things to me when I don't understand them. The installation went very well, although there was a minor glitch with alignment which the installer came out and repaired in a timely manner. And that is "quite a few" because I have
had quite a bit of trouble with the signal and web-page downloads.
Hughes is light-years ahead of Wildblue (my former satellite Internet provider) in providing me, the lowly user, with tools to see what is going on with my Internet access. With Wildblue, I never knew what was going on, but it always seemed to turn out to be the weather in Syracuse.
If I would wish one thing for Hughes, it would be to give someone the authority and ability to deal with situations like mine as if I was talking with a human being who cared about his or her customer.
I have a two-year contract with Hughes and I certainly hope things get a whole lot better than they have been the past two days.
I am going to make sure my friends and relatives know the good experiences I have with Hughes, but I am definitely going to strongly emphasize the fiasco of the past two days.
Mr. Cook, I hope that you get to see this email and that it is not just read and discarded by an administrative assistant.
Thanks for your consideration.
---------------------------------
The next day, I got a reply from Mr. Cook
Ken,
Thanks for your email - I really appreciate the balance and the constructiveness of your comments.
You are making some very interesting points and I'll certainly be looking into them with my colleagues here. In the meantime, I'd like to give you a couple of immediate responses:
I'm sure you understand why we have FAP - unfortunately a 90/10 rule applies to Internet usage in the sense that 10% of Internet users consume 90% of the bandwidth and this impacts all ISPs to a greater or lesser extent. We have implemented the Fair Access Policy to ensure that all users get their fair share of the service at all times. You are right in the sense that we have made a lot of effort to communicate with our users and let them know what is going on - firstly we now have a 'FAP Free Zone' from 3am to 6am eastern during which FAP is essentially turned off. You can already take advantage of this and it is possible to set up downloaders which will schedule activity for this period. We have some of these in test right now and will be choosing one to recommend in the near future. Secondly, our latest software will include a FAP indicator on our 'system control center' web page which is embedded in the modem (type in www.systemcontrolc! enter.com or check the user manual for the IP address). This will enable real time information on FAP status - which will eliminate the 1 hour delay there currently is when you use the billing system. I believe the software is ready for roll out over the next few weeks (you don't need to do anything about it - we automatically update the software in the modem for you).
I've not heard about problems if the modem is on or off - basically when the modem is in the FAP status, you can continue to use for browsing, but obviously you don't want to start any large downloads because this may stack up and cause you more problems when you get out of FAP.
Look out for the downloader - remember that all your systems (operating system, virus checkers etc) download stuff all the time and the Microsoft ones are very big (we know - we see the impact across the whole network!). You'll be much more efficient if you time these for download during the FAP free times.
I'll look into the issue of the manual override for FAP - I've never asked the question, but its a good one! In the meantime, I'm copying Ellen Martz who is a key manager in our customer support team and she'll be in touch with your shortly.
Thanks for joining the HughesNet Customer family and I hope that you the service provides you with good support for your business.
Regards
Mike Cook
Senior Vice President
North America
Hughes Network Systems
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Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off | |
|  
dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened It's a nice reply, but I personally feel that, if they were to actually give someone the authority to override FAP it would do damage to a necessary part of the satellite operation. If there were any chance that spending hours on the phone to get escalated to the guy with the "FAP turn-off switch" would work, there are some who would insist on going through that. Whether their fault or an accident, FAP exists to do exactly what yours did: Give you a very painful wakeup jolt when you hit it. Anything to lessen the pain damages the utility of the mechanism.
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W2K Server|Toshiba Satellite XP Pro|HughesNet IA8/1410/7000 2-watt Business Internet on .98 meter fixed | Datastorm .98 XF2 2-watt on 1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge "Blue Thunder" 22 tons of rolling steel! | |
| | kewaynco
join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened Yeah. But a human who was empowered to make decisions, not just follow policy, could have looked at my experience level and made a decision. If Hughes cannot trust their employees to make rational human decisions, then the employees should be fired.
Plus the fact that no one explained to me "By the way, DO NOT turn off your modem. The 24 hour period will be reset when you turn it back on." No way for me to know that. At my level of experience, it was a logical choice. I was told "Stay off the internet". Well, if the modem was not on, I COULD NOT BE on the internet, even by mistake.
So, I was without internet for 48 hours because of their mistake and because no one there had the authority to do something about their mistake.
The company has policies, not human beings who are empowered to make decisions. The sure sign of a bad company.
Maybe, if I was not being shined on, my email to the VP of Sales may engender some necessary changes. The email, in the form of a letter, was also sent to 5 other corporate executives and Customer Service.
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Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off | |
| 
Arion
join:2006-07-09
Marquette, MI
 ·HughesNet Satellit..
| quote:
Secondly, our latest software will include a FAP indicator on our 'system control center' web page which is embedded in the modem
That's a tremendous piece of news!! That and having a real time indicator instead of a 1 hour or several hour delay. One of the biggest problems is not knowing exactly where your at in the system as regards to your limit on any given day and time.
That being said it's up to the end user to educate themselves about the fap and about the system before having it installed. Yes, I realize it's advertised as a panacea for everything and they hawk it like it's comparable to dsl or cable. Yet your entering into a 2 year contract with them. Does one get a car loan or a lease without doing their homework and reading the fine print??
I already know the answer. Many do not and they end up getting a nasty surprise quite often. Ask the sub prime mortgage people who got a low rate and didn't realize that their rates would get jacked when the mortgages reset. Many of those people didn't do their homework and read the fine print either. And that's on a house!! Let the buyer beware!! Regardless if Hughes comes through with the promised software revision and continues their fap free zone then they have gone a long way towards solving the problems they started with dumping the new policy on the subscribers with hardly any notice or warning.
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HN7000S IA-8 1270 / 8-PSK 3/4 (14) / Router:67.142.140.95 /.74 1 watt / Pro / Pentium 3.2ghz, 1gb ram /Dual Boot WinXP Pro/LinxuS / Firefox 2.0.0.6 | |
| | kewaynco
join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened I actually did my homework and went with Wildblue first. One of only two affordable choices out in the boondocks.
The good thing about Wildblue FAP is it is on a rolling 30-day period with the limit being SEVENTEEN GIGABYTES for the period. That is about the same as what I got with the small business package with Hughes.
However, one unusual day of 500MB on Wildblue caused no problem. My average is between 200mb and 300mb. That is actually a FAIR access policy. Hughes needs to move to the 21st century.
However, the drawback with Wildblue was the inability to know what was going on with my system. Hughes provides the tools to monitor what is going on. And Wildblue was down for me almost as much as it was up. Had to do with my beam being out of Syracuse where the weather was always raining or snowing or someone would sneeze and I'd be down.
After one year with Wildblue, I went with Hughes based on the experience my daughter, 3/10th mile from me, had.
The other problem with Hughes is their "transmission failure policy". They say 25% is acceptable. I agree if it is 25% over a long period of time.
However, I experience transmission failures of 80% or 90% within a two or three minute period (I've kept track - I know, I should get a life). A 90% failure rate is totally unacceptable.
With Hughes, I've now run out of affordable options. And I thought Al Gore was going to make sure all us rural folk got internet comparable with what you city folk got. Instead, he is too worried about the great warm weather we now have 
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Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off | |
| | | snowman41
join:2006-10-20
Almonte, ON
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened Let's hope when they put in the FAP indicator, it's like a traffic light ... Green OK, Yellow WARNING, Red FAPPED or something similar, preferably in a tray Icon or tiny stand-alone application.
If you don't have it yet, you need to download and install the FREE hnFAPmon software, which will do much the same, except it's real time. The Hughes indicator will probably be based on their delayed usage page, but we'll see.
»hnfapmon.sourceforge.net/
Snowman
--
Hughes HN7000s 1.0 Mbps/200 Kbps 375 MB Cdn Plan G16/99W 1230mhz .98m 2w RSL93 ACP75 DLink624 XP & VISTA | |
| | | Argus P
join:2004-08-31
Lake Cormorant, MS
| said by kewaynco  :The other problem with Hughes is their "transmission failure policy". They say 25% is acceptable. I agree if it is 25% over a long period of time. However, I experience transmission failures of 80% or 90% within a two or three minute period (I've kept track - I know, I should get a life). A 90% failure rate is totally unacceptable. Looks like you had a crappy install/point. My transmission error rate over the last three or 4 days is about .22% (2254 failed against 1019455 successful). Might need to gripe about the install and see if they will float you a repoint.
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Direcway-DW7000/Pro Dynamic, G4R - 1110 Mhz. XPpro/SP 2, 5 users (up to Six PCs) on Lynksys WRT54G Wieless Router - 1075 Down/180 Up consistantly | |
|
Arion
join:2006-07-09
Marquette, MI
·HughesNet Satellit..
| There is a big problem with the system with a transmission failure like that!! It's a power supply problem or a transmitter problem. I hardly ever see over a 1/10th of 1% transmission failure rate.
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HN7000S IA-8 1270 / 8-PSK 3/4 (14) / Router:67.142.140.95 /.74 1 watt / Pro / Pentium 3.2ghz, 1gb ram /Dual Boot WinXP Pro/LinxuS / Firefox 2.0.0.6 | |
| | kewaynco
join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened I, also, over an extended period of time, see only 1/10% failure rate (except at first, when the installer had to come out and redo the alignment of something he called "polarity"). I was worried that it was possible that the wind was causing my dish to shift, but I guess that is not the case since after the times I see the large failure rate, everything goes back to normal for several hours to a day. I suppose it could be a problem with the modem, but being intermittent, I suppose it would be hard to diagnose.
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Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off | |
| | | bumwolf
join:2007-04-21
Florence, AL
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened I've often thought if a person doesn't fap that much should have a softer fap. Knock them out for four hours and if they come back and fap again they are an abuser. Then give them the 24 hour pit of death. I can say I haven't fapped in two months since the 3 hour free window. Schedule your updates for overnights an enjoy light surfing and podcast downloads during the day. I download nearly 200mb a day draining my bucket in podcasts then again I'm on pro. FAP indicator would be nice if it was a real time solution. Maybe add something that halts your modem when it reaches 20 percent. (Pipe dream) Additional Hughes gives you more now than wildblue with the fap free window I average 30gb a month sure beats out 17 with wildblue.
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Hughesnet | DW7000 | Pro Package | Windows XP SP2 | AMD Athlon 64 3000+ | 1GB RAM | ATI Radeon 9550 256MB | 250GB HDD | |
| | | | v8rail
join:2003-10-13
Ash Fork, AZ
·HughesNet Satellit..
1 edit | Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened said by bumwolf : Additional Hughes gives you more now than wildblue with the fap free window I average 30gb a month sure beats out 17 with wildblue. the fap free window is nice and dandy when you are close to the civilization and connected to power. I'm off grid (and actually like it), but off grid you have to save power and running computers 24/7 will drain the batteries fast
also I use the internet for much more then downloads, most of my payed for bandwidth I will (and have to) use during the time I'm sitting in front of the computer.
yeah since HN faped me four times by mistake back in april, I never got faped again. The first couple months because I watched my traffic, the last couple months because HN messed up Satmex 5 (and the sad part, they have no clue what is going on  . I'm sure the tech support that could have fixed this mess got outsourced to script readers in India)
and BTW kewaynco, with 200 to 300 MB a day you are an abuser in the eyes of HN (and some guys in this forum). You are surely part of the 10% that uses 90% of the usage ... don't shoot the messanger, it is just the simple sad truth 
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Sprint Wireless , currently just 1xRTT, but still faster then HN on Satmex5, DW7000 with .74 dish (soon to be a birdbath) | |
| | | | | kewaynco
join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR | Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened If I pay for 500mb per day, how does using 50% of it make me an abuser? My wife and I work from home for companies out of state. 200-300mb is very small usage given the circumstances. | |
| | | | | | v8rail
join:2003-10-13
Ash Fork, AZ
·HughesNet Satellit..
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened like I said don't shoot the messenger
But it is simple. HN oversells massive. When all users would pull 50% of what they paid for the system would be death.
This is also why HN makes the FAP that hard and why they still don't give any details about FAP. It is just to scare the customer. 
BTW I think most of Mr. Cooks answer is just BS. | |
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dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| said by kewaynco :If I pay for 500mb per day That is the issue: Start with a false assumption/assertion and everything you do/say related to it will be skewed.
You do not pay for 500MB per day.
You pay for a connection, plain and simple. That connection does not come with speed or throughput guarantees. It does have a maximum cap, after which they come down hard on you. That cap is moveable at their discretion, and they've moved it a few times.
Hughes doesn't really care what an individual uses; they care what the aggregate uses, and it is necessary to throttle the individual to control the aggregate. Whatever it takes to keep the aggregate below an average of 50MB per day per customer is the order of the day. We (and I'm a heavy user) are very lucky that the overall customer base is made up mostly of very light users, so they can cap you at 500MB, and me at 1250MB, and still keep the average under 50MB.
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W2K Server|Toshiba Satellite XP Pro|HughesNet IA8/1410/7000 2-watt Business Internet on .98 meter fixed | Datastorm .98 XF2 2-watt on 1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge "Blue Thunder" 22 tons of rolling steel! | |
| | | | | | | kewaynco
join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened I would have to respectfully disagree about not paying for 500MB.
My plan states:
Download Threshold 2 500 MB with '2' pointing to explanation "2 Download Threshold is the volume of data that can be downloaded continuously before the Fair Access Policy may restrict the download speed."
and
"The Fair Access Policy is straightforward. Based on an analysis of customer usage data, Hughes has established a download threshold for each of the HughesNet service plans that is well above the typical usage rates. Subscribers who exceed that threshold will experience reduced download speeds for approximately 24 hours."
So, by their definition, it is only when I exceed the threshold that I drop into uFAP. What they do not define is "continuously". Maybe that is where you are getting your definition. You may be thinking this does not mean in a contiguous 24-hour day, but in any 24-hour period. So, if, say, beginning at noon, I download 300mb by midnight and then another 300mb the next day before noon, I would be in that uFAP sea.
This should not happen to me as I use my internet for work and the 200-300 per day all happen predictably at certain times of the day.
Date Time From Time To Min Used Download In MB
08/29/2007 6:00 07:00 60 2.93
08/29/2007 7:00 08:00 60 10.94
08/29/2007 8:00 09:00 60 20.59
08/29/2007 9:00 10:00 60 17.89
08/29/2007 10:00 11:00 60 10.04
08/29/2007 11:00 12:00 60 7.85
08/29/2007 12:00 13:00 60 3.99
08/29/2007 13:00 14:00 59 2.77
08/29/2007 14:00 15:00 60 4.18
08/29/2007 15:00 16:00 60 3.58
08/29/2007 16:00 17:00 60 3.41
08/29/2007 17:00 18:00 60 1.87
08/29/2007 18:00 19:00 60 1.12
08/29/2007 19:00 20:00 60 15.36
08/29/2007 20:00 21:00 58 0.52
08/29/2007 23:00 00:00 59 0.48
08/30/2007 0:00 01:00 60 0.53
08/30/2007 1:00 02:00 60 0.97
08/30/2007 2:00 03:00 60 0.53
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Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off | |
| | | | | | | | v8rail
join:2003-10-13
Ash Fork, AZ
·HughesNet Satellit..
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened said by kewaynco :I would have to respectfully disagree about not paying for 500MB. I agree .... actually when I signed up, I bought a refresh rate and payed for that data amount.
said by kewaynco :So, by their definition, it is only when I exceed the threshold that I drop into uFAP. What they do not define is "continuously". Maybe that is where you are getting your definition. You may be thinking this does not mean in a contiguous 24-hour day, but in any 24-hour period. So, if, say, beginning at noon, I download 300mb by midnight and then another 300mb the next day before noon, I would be in that uFAP sea. just as a side note, there is no 24 hour period. In the above scenario you would have been stayed very clear outside the FAP.
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Verizon Wireless Rev A, DW7000 with .74 dish (soon to be a birdbath) | |
| | | | | | | |
dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| said by kewaynco :My plan states: No. Again, you are reading what you want, where you want, and applying it as though it mattered. Your plan does not state that; an advertisement for your plan says that. It appears nowhere in the contract you agreed to when you signed up. Read the actual contract.
In the contract there is no mention of throughput except that they may limit it as they see fit, and everything related to service levels says they expressly disclaim that there are any. They say (shouting is theirs): "THE SERVICE IS MADE AVAILABLE ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND"
That is what you are paying for. | |
| | | | | | | | | 
HN User
@direcpc.com
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened Sadly, the false assumptions here are yours. Again, you are acting as if HughesNet's word via advertising and technical support doesn't matter. It does.
The "Fair Access Policy" is not based on our fair access to the service for which we pay good money but on their fair access to their profit and a very behind-the-times set of bandwidth thresholds they refuse to invest in upgrading. If they'd upgrade their systems, both those that provide bandwidth and those that provide customer service, they'd see a lot more happy users instead of a lot of unhappy users clamoring for any other alternative.
Here's the simple math. No happy customers = no happy billing dept. = no happy investors = no Huhgesnet | |
| | | | | | | | | |
dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened Simply amazing that there are people who continue to think that somehow there are "upgrade" which can be done to turn consumer satellite into something it can't be. Sigh.
Good satellite service is out there for the asking. All it takes is $$$ and there are many companies willing to hook you up. Got $4000 per month available? For that you can get 512K up 4M down with low contention rates. For a mere $500 per month you can get 64K guaranteed bandwidth. Actually, you can get 64K CIR for around $320 per month. Figure $5 per K, with some economy-of-scale as you go higher.
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W2K Server|Toshiba Satellite XP Pro|HughesNet IA8/1410/7000 2-watt Business Internet on .98 meter fixed | Datastorm .98 XF2 2-watt on 1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge "Blue Thunder" 22 tons of rolling steel! | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | JLDunn
join:2005-07-26
Moscow, OH
 ·Cincinnati Bell
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened I suspect that there are thousands of satellite subscribers who have no idea that they do not have true broadband. Only when some family member starts downloading U Tube, movies, or music and they get hit by the FAP do they realize something is wrong. They see the news reports talking about all the things one can do nowadays on the internet and think they can do the same things. Hughes does not say anything in their advertising to discourage them from signing up.
I have an elderly neighbor lady who saw the Hughesnet commercials and was ready to order. She wanted to provide an internet connection for her kids/grandkids who have cable in the city because when they visit they complain that they cannot download U Tube, TV shows and movies etc.. After I explained to her how little they could download with a 400MB limit and the penalty if they go over she wisely decided not to order. Probably many non-technical people do not find this out until later.
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Hughes | HN7000S Pro Plus| SatMex5 1050mhz | 256k 2/3 (TC) | Win XP SP2 | static addr. | |
| | | | | | | | | | c150L
join:2004-06-30
New London, WI
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened said by JLDunn :I suspect that there are thousands of satellite subscribers who have no idea that they do not have true broadband. And there would not be anything misleading in their ads either....
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Win 98 and Win 2K DW6000 CE on AMC3 1290 Linksys BEFW11S4 | |
| | | | | | | | | | laserfan
join:2005-01-14
Blanco, TX
1 edit | said by JLDunn :I have an elderly neighbor lady who saw the Hughesnet commercials and was ready to order. She wanted to provide an internet connection for her kids/grandkids who have cable in the city because when they visit they complain that they cannot download U Tube, TV shows and movies etc. Hmm, I thought it was only the parents today who are responsible for the excessive exposure of children to (mostly useless) video, audio/music, and computer games.
Shame on you, grandma! 
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DW6000CEv5.4.0.20, G13/H1@127W, 1270MHz, SigTyp74, Toshiba Magnia SG10, LinksysBEFW11S4w, Airlink8portswitch, AirlinkAR410Wwireless, 10-20clients & 6+OSes | |
| 
anectine17
Premium,MVM
join:2003-01-05
Mountain Home, ID
| I agree with virtually everything written. I'm impressed with the quality of the OP's e-mail as well as the reply from Mr. Cook. It's also nice to hear that a FAP monitor of some sort is forthcoming...I'll be anxious to hear how it works.
I do have to side with Don (dbirdman) on the rigidity of the FAP, however. Ignorance (not meant to be derogatory) of the rules is no excuse for violating them. The fact that you're a new user who only uses so much per day should count for exactly what it counts for...zilch. If people thought there were even the remotest chance that they could convince someone on the other end to give them a break.....just this one time, you can bet the phones and reps would be so tied up with FAP pity calls, that nothing else would get done. The FAP needs to be hard-coded, black and white with no do-overs.....not even once. That may sound harsh, but anything less would lead to absolute anarchy, IMO. Good luck with all of it!! I'll be watching!!
Alden
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HN7000S Small Office | G16/1210 | Static IP | .98m Dish | 2 Watt X-mit | FF 2.0 | Wired/Wireless Network w/ Modded Linksys WRT54GS v.2 w/ DD-WRT | Asus P4S800D-X/P-4 2.8ghz (OC'd to 3.2) Home-Built Desktop | Inspiron 1150 Laptop | Multi-Layered Security | |
|
Arion
join:2006-07-09
Marquette, MI
·HughesNet Satellit..
| To boil it all down your plan may be 175mb/day 375mb/day whatever...
However the thruput and physics of the transponder your on and the gateways don't even come close to allowing each and every user to download there maximum plan allowance per day.
Birdman has it right. What happens is that "usually" you can get your plan limit because not everyone is maxing the system out. However during times of heavy useage and if you have downloaded a fair amount your going to get soft throttled even if your not close to the daily max. On days when big MS updates and other like stuff comes out and everyone's automatic updates are running you'll find the system crawling and you might be a close to dial up speed.
Yes the plan says you can have a certain amount each day but that amount is not guaranteed in the contract. The fap and all the assorted controls try to keep the behemoth running with the minimal disruptions and downtime. What they do is guarantee you a connection but no where in the contract are you "guaranteed" a certain download/upload speed or a certain amount of MB you can download.
If you want that guarantee then you have to go to a true commercial internet service and sign on to a plan and a contract that has a guaranteed contention ratio so you have the absolute guarantee of your speed and bandwidth allocation but your going to pay many times more than what your paying right now.
At least give them a little bit of credit for developing the fapless zone that you can access with a DL manager so you don't have to stay up to the wee hours of the morning and (if the email is valid) coming up with a software revision that will give you a "real time" picture of where you standing in the system.
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HN7000S IA-8 1270 / 8-PSK 3/4 (14) / Router:67.142.140.95 /.74 1 watt / Pro / Pentium 3.2ghz, 1gb ram /Dual Boot WinXP Pro/LinxuS / Firefox 2.0.0.6 | |
| | kewaynco
join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened So, essentially, you are verifying what I already know. It is not until I reach and pass my maximum that I fall under uFAP. Only, you are looking at it from a different perspective - that I might not be able to reach the maximum every day. And I am stating that my normal is 200mb-300mb per day, with less than 100mb on weekends. And someone else has said that, at less than 50% usage, I am one of the BAD people.
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Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off | |
| | | snowman41
join:2006-10-20
Almonte, ON
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened Welcome to Catch-22, Hughes style.
Sometimes, you even think you're getting what you bought.
Snowman
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Hughes HN7000s 1.0 Mbps/200 Kbps 375 MB Cdn Plan G16/99W 1230mhz .98m 2w RSL93 ACP75 DLink624 XP & VISTA | |
| | |
Arion
join:2006-07-09
Marquette, MI
·HughesNet Satellit..
| If you look at the hughes fap patent that was posted on the forum (at least the link was) after the new fap policy they do state that the use a "soft throttling" scheme. The system assigns you a "cir" committed information rate which is determine by the plan that your on, whether or not your on a DVB-S2 gateway for the HN7000S users, your download history, (i.e. do you download close to your plan limit every day) and other variables and they mix all that together and assign you a certain CIR.
So if you download close to the max every day then they are going to throttle you back and you might not have as good speeds as someone else with the same plan that rarely downloads as much as you do. In other words the "other" guy on your transponder might get a bigger slice of the pie then you do because he doesn't usually download as much as you do.
Knowing that I upgraded to the pro package. I rarely even exceed the home limit of 175mb a day. But since I'm "allowed" 375mb a day and usually average 150mb or less I usually get my full 1000kbps download speed and even get fairly close to that at times during peak times. Whereas others with the same system and package are slower than I am because they download more per day that I usually do.
Is it a perfect system?? Is it totally fair?? No, it isn't. But the number one complaint before the new system was about the terrible download speeds during peak times. We were getting many, many threads asking if something was wrong with their system. Now, some people still have slow speeds. Some of them have poor installs, others download a lot and are soft throttled, even some have trouble on hughes end. But all in all (my opinion only from my perspective) they have achieved a workable balance for most of there customers and it seems like the other providers are still trying to find the "sweet spot" whereas Hughes is close to achieving it. Other than the terrible customer service I have few complaints lately.
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HN7000S IA-8 1270 / 8-PSK 3/4 (14) / Router:67.142.140.95 /.74 1 watt / Pro / Pentium 3.2ghz, 1gb ram /Dual Boot WinXP Pro/LinxuS / Firefox 2.0.0.6 | |
| | |
dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| said by kewaynco :someone else has said that, at less than 50% usage, I am one of the BAD people. Well, you won't find me saying you are one of the BAD people (or abuser, which is the word that was used). In my case that would be highly hypocritical, since I probably average twice the usage that you say you are using.
My arguments here are about a sense of "entitlement" to something which you may get 99% of the time, but are never "entitled" to. You are not paying for 500MB per day. You are not entitled to any break whatsoever, from anybody, when you hit FAP, even if it's the very first time and you don't know about it. That's what this thread has been about, as simply as I can put it.
I likewise lack any entitlement, on an account that costs twice what yours does. I have about the same percentage leeway you do, between what I average and what I can get before FAP, and I've occasionally been FAPped. When I am, I tap my foot very impatiently, but blame nobody but myself and ask for no consideration from others.
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W2K Server|Toshiba Satellite XP Pro|HughesNet IA8/1410/7000 2-watt Business Internet on .98 meter fixed | Datastorm .98 XF2 2-watt on 1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge "Blue Thunder" 22 tons of rolling steel! | |
| | | | kewaynco
join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened I'll say just a few more things, which was the other point of my post:
I have found Hughes' tech support people to be much more helpful and patient than those with my previous ISP - Wildblue.
Hughes provides more helpful tools to its customers so they can see what is going on.
Maybe some day Wildblue will be as good as Hughes. But they were not, which is why I switched (my daughter had Hughes when it was DirecWay and she lives 3/10 mile from me and has never had a single real problem - she turned her nose up at us when we went with Wildblue).
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Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off | |
| | | seaweedsl
join:2006-08-23
Mexico
·HughesNet Satellit..
| That's great news that you got an intelligent answer from the Hughes sales director. And some of the details are interesting.
As far as FAP goes, for now, just install hpFAPmon and tell it what your account is. Watching it will teach you a lot about how FAP works.
hpFAPmon will do the calculating for you, but, so you understand, here's some details - as far as we can tell:
The 500MB or whatever is your "bucket size". It's not really a per day measurement. Each plan has a bucket size. Each plan also has a fill rate. I'm on Small office, so my fill rate is just over 100 kbps.
You start out with a full bucket.
At any given time, if you are using more bandwidth (downloading, usually) than your fill rate, then you are draining your bucket. If I am downloading at 1000 kbps, then I'm draining my bucket pretty fast. If I'm streaming music at 150kbps, I'm also draining it, but with the refill rate factored in, not much. At 150kbps it will take hours to use up my whole bucket.
As soon as you stop streaming or downloading, or any time your usage is less than your refill rate, then your bucket is refilling. So, you could download 400MB very quickly, then let your bucket refill for a couple hours and do it again. If it's done strategically, you can actually get more than your bucket limit within 24 without Fapping.
But if, at any point, you do empty your bucket, then you're FAPped. What the rules are at that point is still somewhat of a mystery, but it's advisible to keep your modem on and your surfing light for the next 12-24 hours depending on your plan. No updates!
In any case, as someone said, at the rate your posted usage shows, you should not get fapped with any plan.
Use your system as you need to, but be strategic. If you find that your bucket is not big enough or the refill rate not fast enough, go to a higher plan.
Steve
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DW7000,2 watt .98, Small Office, G11, 1050 WHR-HP-G54/DD-WRT
| |
| | | | dougau
Premium
join:2007-08-09
Dickson, TN
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened I had DW for four years. Thank God in the last two weeks AT&T has finally started offering DSL in my area and now I can actually download a season of Battle Star Glactia from Itunes or Windows updates without fear of a FAP. When I canceled Hughes I did give them a big speech about the unfair FAP policy. Maybe it'll help but i doubt it. All I can say is good luck to everyone and pray for DSL or cable in your aria soon.
If you live in a aria that had Bell South phone service it seems AT&T is trying to expand DSL in those arias the old Bell South didn't cover so keep checking their web site to see if your line is DSL capable. Finally after four years it happened for me. | |
| | |
Gone
@eot.com
| said by kewaynco :(....) And someone else has said that, at less than 50% usage, I am one of the BAD people. You will find that response is not out of the norm when you start dragging HN's con into the light. | |
| | | | v8rail
join:2003-10-13
Ash Fork, AZ | Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened That's why I told it first ... I'm considered a bad guy tooo | |
| Xtreme2damax
join:2007-03-21
| Yup that Fap can be a doosie (or however you spell it). When we first got our system hooked up, I tried to finish a download of Ubuntu Linux I started beforehand. Just so happens I hit the Fap immediately within 15 minutes or less.
I was then clueless as to why I was getting Dial-Up speeds or worse when this was advertised as broadband. Also the deceptive advertising where it is compared as a worthy competitor to Cable or DSL didn't help either.
A quick google search revealed to me the Fair Access Policy which Satellite providers impose on their subscribers. Before the new FAP went in to effect on April 16th the service was much better or usable with Fap and recovery rate wasn't as long as it is now with the service being usable again 4 hours after hitting the Fap.
Luckily and magically I haven't hit Fap in almost a week which is a miracle really. Perhaps hughes is listening and addressing the problems some of us were having.
I just schedule all of my downloads and/or Youtube videos for 3am - 6am EST, which isn't much of a problem since I am not working a job anyways. I'll also be moving out of my parents house into the city in my own apartment where Time Warner Roadrunner is available as well as other broadband ISP's so I'll be saying goodbye to hughes in a while too as well.
So for now until I move I just use the special hughes proxy to avoid turbo page and TCP acceleration related errors when Fap'd, learn from others as well as help others on this forum. | |
|
recola
@covad.net
| So, you did your research, and yet you emailed the company claiming ignorance of the FAP.
Hundreds of people do that every single day. You let someone slide once, you get people asking to slide again, you get people who swear up and down that they couldn't have downloaded that much data, but turns out that they did.
| |
| laserfan
join:2005-01-14
Blanco, TX
| kewaynco yours is an interesting story, but I'm shaking my head that you thought just cuz you are new to HN and made a mistake with it that an exception should be made on your behalf and Hughes should override the FAP for you! If they do it for one, then they have to do it for everybody. Doesn't sound reasonable to me.
I just did a similar bonehead thing here when I set-up Free Download Manager to DL and save radar weather images every five minutes. I thought this would be a clever way to at least have a record of the last radar before the link drops-out (which it usually does when a storm comes-up). Ya know, when you most need the Internet (in a thunderstorm), it fails you! Anyway, today I find that these images get bigger if the radar becomes complex (duh) and I hit the FAP at almost exactly 500Mb in 24 hours.
Never have I hit the New FAP before! So today the 'net is unusable, and w/o knowing I'm FAPPED I spend some long minutes troubleshooting and among the things I do is unplug the modem to reset it. So here I sit:
1. Apparently unplugging the modem extends my pain another 24hrs
2. My download speeds are only 10kbps which means "dead in the water" for at least the start of this long, rainy holiday weekend! DAMN!
It seems to me that with tho old FAP speeds dropped to 56k Modem levels, but 10k is nasty, downright ridiculous--completely, utterly unusable. Now I know first-hand what everyone here has been complaining about all summer!!! | |
| |
dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened said by laserfan :1. Apparently unplugging the modem extends my pain another 24hrs That is unlikely in the extreme. Unplugging the modem and having FAP continue has only been associated with LEAVING it off. Even that is controversial - there are enough variations on the 24-hour FAP that it is hard to say for sure if on or off actually matters. | |
| | Xtreme2damax
join:2007-03-21
| quote:
Apparently unplugging the modem extends my pain another 24hrs
I unplug the modem everytime we get Fap'd and we still come out of it everytime at exactly 24 hours later. So I observed that unplugging the modem does not affect anything with Fap or doesn't extend your Fap period. | |
| taylorb
join:2007-06-16
Bridgeville, CA | wait.
the tech support for Hughes told me to unplug the modem for 24 hours when i first called them about getting throttled.
is there a different thing to do besides that?  | |
| |
See 7 replies to this post | |
mickier
join:2006-08-22
Moss, TN
| WOW!
The hnFAPMon application at SourceForge works GREAT!
It now has a little Icon in the taskbar that shows your FAP status!
KEWL KEWL KEWL!!!!!
It even takes into account the FAP-FREE zone.
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Hughesnet/HN7000S/GC3(95W)-1360Mhz/signalstr=80/Pro Plan/0.74 Dish/WinXP/P3-3Ghz-1.5Gb Ram/IE6/ | |
| taylorb
join:2007-06-16
Bridgeville, CA | get hnFAPmon its a great program.
does NOT change the fact that you will get FAPped if you go over your limit but at least you can monintor EVERYTHING using it. | |
| fell_away
join:2007-09-14
Muscle Shoals, AL
| This is quite an interesting thread. Unfortunately I am seeing a lot of defense for the FAP as opposed to outrage.
I am not a new HughesNet user. I have had 2 installs over the past 6 months. The first, I cancelled because I moved out of Alabama and back to Pennsylvania. In PA, my local cable company offered 10mbps broadband which I subscribed to.
But I moved back and to my dismay HN changed their FAP since I was last a subscriber. The first time around once I hit the FAP, which I did daily, I would be limited to about 25kbps actual download speeds and I wouldn't have to wait 24 hours, rather there was a recovery rate that allowed me to leave the FAP within 3-4 hours depending on my usage.
That's right as some of you point out I apparently abuse my ISP privileges. When I had a 10mbps connection my usage was in excess of 200gb per month. But as far as I'm concerned it is my inherent right no matter what ISP I pay for to have a limitless data flow.
Is it any wonder that HN is the only of many ISPs I have ever had that limits data flow? Even during peak usage periods on dial up, dsl, and cable I never had any problems with any of my ISPs and I was very happy until I had to go with satellite internet to even marginally function online.
You can debate my opinion, but HN has tightened their FAP since a few months ago which I see as a step in the wrong direction. I realize the FAP is in effect because satellites do have limitations as far as throughput and usage on a national basis is concerned, but that doesn't make me any more content with it.
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HN Home Plan - HN7000S | |
| |
See 13 replies to this post | |
| Argus P
join:2004-08-31
Lake Cormorant, MS
| I was fully satisfied with Direcway/Hughesnet performance when I purchased it 3 years ago last month. I got close to what was advertised speeds day-in & day-out over those three years with an occasional hiccup, but understandable with this type of technology. I also came from town with previous internet service provided by RoadRunner Cable, so I do know the difference between the two, Hughesnet is inherently slower due to the technology, but I accepted it and learned to live with it, FAP and all. What I am unwilling to accept is the current slowness of browsing, email and just plain poor overall performance of a service I am paying $80/month for. If Hughes could continuously provide the level of service they did for 3 years on the money I paid them, I fully expect them to continue to do so now, even raise my rate if inflation makes it more costly to do this business these days.
Below are the speeds I have been getting for the last week:
September 17th, 11:22PM - 59/129 kbps
September 17th, 08:38AM - 734/148 kbps
September 16th, 11:17PM - 554/140 kbps
September 16th, 08:24AM - 736/149 kbps
September 15th, 10:16PM - 198/137 kbps
September 15th, 09:03AM - 683/148 kbps
September 15th, 12:02AM - 266/146 kbps
September 14th, 11:27PM - 89/144 kbps
September 14th, 08:44AM - 721/147 kbps
September 13th, 06:36PM - 89/37 kbps
September 13th, 12:30PM - 431/127 kbps
September 13th, 12:07PM - 585/139 kbps
September 13th, 12:05PM - 625/138 kbps
September 13th, 08:59AM - 730/146 kbps
September 12th, 09:23PM - 50/95 kbps
September 12th, 04:44PM - 138/80 kbps
September 12th, 04:40PM - 93/117 kbps
September 12th, 03:29PM - 725/146 kbps
September 12th, 02:09PM - 554/145 kbps
September 12th, 01:05PM - 514/133 kbps
September 12th, 08:58AM - 677/161 kbps
September 12th, 01:49AM - 853/142 kbps
September 12th, 12:49AM - 791/145 kbps
September 12th, 12:46AM - 857/142 kbps
September 12th, 12:43AM - 838/148 kbps
September 12th, 12:20AM - 536/142 kbps
September 11th, 11:26PM - 104/121 kbps
September 11th, 11:25PM - 107/114 kbps
Early morning has been fine, not what I used to get, but close enough to live with. Afternoons and evenings are a completely different matter. Just checked 15 mins ago and I had 59 down and 129 up. Everything slow as molasses.
The Verizon modem came in late this morning and got it activated a few hours ago. Can’t get Broadband Rev A here at the house, but can close by. I went up on the roof after supper and got a Broadband Rev A signal there, weak, but stable with quick browsing. I guess I’ll order a roof mount external antenna and see if that helps as I have 30 days to cancel the service. I am aware of Verizon’s TOS and have looked at my monthly usage, could be a go. I also have Sprint EVDO as an option and they are truly unlimited usage from what I have read, just overall speeds appear to be slower, coverage looks better for my area though.
If you don’t take care of your customers, the shareholders have no business to own. It’s called balance.
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Direcway-DW7000/Pro Dynamic, G4R - 1110 Mhz. XPpro/SP 2, 5 users (up to Six PCs) on Lynksys WRT54G Wieless Router - 1075 Down/180 Up consistantly | |
| | CMoore2004
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Jonesville, MI
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened Just out of curiosity, where do you get the idea that Sprint's speeds are slower? I've heard many claims about Verizon crippling their EVDO service. If you can get Sprint, I'd recommend going that way.
And if you get an external yagi antenna, you're likely to lose much of the gain with the long cable. I'd recommend an amplifier instead.
I'm still in disbelief that someone would say Sprint's speeds are slower than Verizon's. Perhaps some references would help me believe there are people crazy enough to make this claim.
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Charter 5M | Windows XP MCE SP2 | Mobile AMD Athlon 64 4000+ | 1.5GB RAM | ATI Mobile Radeon X600 128MB | 120GB HDD | |
| Argus P
join:2004-08-31
Lake Cormorant, MS
| I have been researching the EVDO things for a week now and one website listed the pros and cons of the different wireless providers and one of the pros of Verizon was faster speeds across the board, the cons was the TOS/5 gig cap ( but read this: »www.evdoforums.com/thread5965.html ). I have been to a couple of hundred sites so I couldn't begin to tell you were this was that said Verizon was faster. Another plus for Verizon was that PC5750 modem was free and Verizon has dropped the price to $59 without a qualifing voice plan which it used to be $79.
My buddy is a EE and used to maintain large commercial radio station transmiters for a living and he seems to think that the 20 ft or so of cable might not hurt that bad, particularly if I get an antenna with a fair amount of gain to begin with.
One thing I noticed this afternoon driving around the area with a laptop is that I hit a Rev A broadband conection that only had one bar, but the testmynet test was 575 down and "UP", amazing to say the least after using Hughes.
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Direcway-DW7000/Pro Dynamic, G4R - 1110 Mhz. XPpro/SP 2, 5 users (up to Six PCs) on Lynksys WRT54G Wieless Router - 1075 Down/180 Up consistantly | |
| | CMoore2004
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Jonesville, MI
| Re: [DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened spcsdns.net - 815/279 kbit
(726 samples last 14 days)
»/mspeed?domains=1
Perhaps looking at more reputable sites is a good idea.
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Charter 5M | Windows XP MCE SP2 | Mobile AMD Athlon 64 4000+ | 1.5GB RAM | ATI Mobile Radeon X600 128MB | 120GB HDD | |
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