pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
|  Wireless Industry Is Correct
And I would dare say that if Congress wants to waste our time and money investigating this non-issue, then it needs to extend its break.
Most of the problems highlighted can be worked around with no need for government bungling:
You don't want a crippled phone? Do some research and buy one that isn't crippled. I know that for T-Mobile and AT&T there is nothing stopping you from taking a SIM from your existing phone and putting into a new phone that you buy yourself.
You don't like nickel and dime billing? Get a pre-paid phone.
You don't like restrictive user agreements or contracts? Pay the full price for your phone and you won't have to deal with one.
You don't like how a GSM-based phone is locked to a particular provider? You can pay someone to unlock it for you.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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SD6
join:2005-03-26
| said by pnh102  :Most of the problems highlighted can be worked around with no need for government bungling: You don't want a crippled phone? Do some research and buy one that isn't crippled. I know that for T-Mobile and AT&T there is nothing stopping you from taking a SIM from your existing phone and putting into a new phone that you buy yourself. You don't like nickel and dime billing? Get a pre-paid phone. You don't like restrictive user agreements or contracts? Pay the full price for your phone and you won't have to deal with one. You don't like how a GSM-based phone is locked to a particular provider? You can pay someone to unlock it for you. Sorry, but you are wrong about this. In the US, an uncrippled phone generally costs about 50% more than it does in many other countries (where all phones are uncrippled). And the availability and variety in the US is greatly diminished. The phones no longer just get the subsidy lock; they are becoming locked in such a way that it requires a hack and it is technically illegal to unlock them. The terms of service are restrictive, apply regardless of the device you use, and there is no way around it. Certainly, not by paying full price for a phone.
The real point is the economics of the market where consumers are losing billions of dollars on service using federally granted wireless spectrum, not the technicalities of whether you CAN do an end around the various barriers to competition. Personal computers are cheap and you can use any PC with any ISP. Not that way with cellular. A cell phone costs more than a PC, and software development for mobile devices is stifled. The large cellular companies are vertical systems with operating profits of about 30%+. It prima facie is NOT a competitive market, rivaled only by some of the oil companies. |
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kapil
The Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :You don't like nickel and dime billing? Get a pre-paid phone. You don't like restrictive user agreements or contracts? Pay the full price for your phone and you won't have to deal with one. You don't like how a GSM-based phone is locked to a particular provider? You can pay someone to unlock it for you. Most carriers won't allow fancy services like video, data, blackberry etc. on prepaid plans....vanilla voice services only for the most part.
Most carriers also won't allow you to sign up without an agreement on a post-pay plan even if you pay the full price on the equipment.
Finally, it is becoming increasing harder to "unlock" phones. T-Mobile is pretty good about it, AT&T not so much...as seen with the iPhone. Verizon even changes the UI so you can't really use the phone elsewhere....besides most CDMA providers won't provision a phone whose ESN number is not in their system as one of "theirs". |
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greendragon
Premium
join:2003-09-20
Stewartville, MN | reply to SD6
Well said. |
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n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :You don't want a crippled phone? Do some research and buy one that isn't crippled. I know that for T-Mobile and AT&T there is nothing stopping you from taking a SIM from your existing phone and putting into a new phone that you buy yourself. T-Mobile and AT&T are only two players. What about Sprint/Nextel and Verizon? As for buying yourself a new phone at full price and putting in your SIM, try doing that with an iPhone and a T-Mobile SIM. There is no such thing as an unlocked iPhone, no matter what price you paid, unless you hack it and remove the eight locks yourself.
said by pnh102 :You don't like restrictive user agreements or contracts? Pay the full price for your phone and you won't have to deal with one. Again, the iPhone has blazed new grounds in restrictive contracts with full priced phones.
said by pnh102 :You don't like how a GSM-based phone is locked to a particular provider? You can pay someone to unlock it for you. Assuming it can be done. Some newer models of phones are so tightly locked down that the old Smart-Clip and similar tools just will not cut it any more. The upcoming Motorola Razor 2 looks like it will be carrier specific no matter who issues it or what you pay for it. It is basically a shell that has had the electronics and software designed by the individual carrier selling their version of the phone. There are GSM, CDMA and HSDPA versions along with many different OS's (Linux or Synergy) running on them (see »www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2170258,00.asp). I would not be surprised if the AT&T version and the T-Mobile version are totally imcompatible with each others SIM's.
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I support the right to keep and arm bears. |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey | reply to pnh102
The carriers need to separated from the phones. The current system doesnt help the customer. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to SD6
said by SD6 :Sorry, but you are wrong about this. In the US, an uncrippled phone generally costs about 50% more than it does in many other countries (where all phones are uncrippled). That doesn't mean they are not available, as people seem to think. And besides, in most other countries, you pay more for the phone because it is not subsidized by a service contract. Most people in the USA would rather buy a cheap phone and be tied to a provider than deal with the hassle of making a phone work with a different provider.
said by SD6 :And the availability and variety in the US is greatly diminished. Ebay.
said by SD6 :The phones no longer just get the subsidy lock; they are becoming locked in such a way that it requires a hack and it is technically illegal to unlock them. At worst you void your phone's warranty. No one is being arrested and persecuted for modifying their own cell phone, even if it violates the letter of a dumb law.
said by SD6 :The terms of service are restrictive, apply regardless of the device you use, and there is no way around it. Certainly, not by paying full price for a phone. Again, you can get a pre-paid phone if you don't like restrictive agreements, and if the provider pisses you off, you can throw the phone away and not have to be bothered by it anymore.
said by SD6 :The real point is the economics of the market where consumers are losing billions of dollars on service using federally granted wireless spectrum, not the technicalities of whether you CAN do an end around the various barriers to competition. But again, most cell phone customers don't care about these things. They just want a phone that works.
said by SD6 :The large cellular companies are vertical systems with operating profits of about 30%+. It prima facie is NOT a competitive market, rivaled only by some of the oil companies. What's wrong with companies making "30%+" profit? If i am a shareholder, I would want my company making infinity percent profits all the time. If companies don't make profit, they go under. If cellular as an industry was not profitable, no one would have a phone at all.
said by SD6 :It prima facie is NOT a competitive market, rivaled only by some of the oil companies. I agree here, but who allowed these mergers, in both industries? It was the government. This proves that government is part of the problem here and that more intervention by the government will make things worse.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to DaveNJ
said by DaveNJ :The carriers need to separated from the phones. The current system doesnt help the customer. And paying full price for a phone upfront, along with the full price for service, is better?
The current system helps customers a lot. You can get cell phone service and not pay any money for a phone.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to kapil
said by kapil :Most carriers won't allow fancy services like video, data, blackberry etc. on prepaid plans....vanilla voice services only for the most part. Why is this a problem?
said by kapil :Most carriers also won't allow you to sign up without an agreement on a post-pay plan even if you pay the full price on the equipment. But again, you can circumvent this with a prepaid phone.
said by kapil :Finally, it is becoming increasing harder to "unlock" phones. The iPhone was unlocked in hours. The level of difficulty in unlocking a phone is irrelevant provided that someone can do it.
said by kapil :besides most CDMA providers won't provision a phone whose ESN number is not in their system as one of "theirs". And if that is important to you, you can currently use a GSM provider which doesn't have such a restriction.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to n2jtx
said by n2jtx :T-Mobile and AT&T are only two players. What about Sprint/Nextel and Verizon? What about them? My post states that it is currently possible to bring your own phone to the carrier of your choice. This is correct, provided it is AT&T or T-Mobile. If this is important to you, why would you go with a carrier that doesn't support this?
said by n2jtx : As for buying yourself a new phone at full price and putting in your SIM, try doing that with an iPhone and a T-Mobile SIM. There is no such thing as an unlocked iPhone, no matter what price you paid, unless you hack it and remove the eight locks yourself. The iPhone has been hacked and cracked numerous times over. Again, it doesn't matter how you crack it, it can be done, it is being done, and it will continue to be done.
said by n2jtx :Again, the iPhone has blazed new grounds in restrictive contracts with full priced phones. Then don't buy an iPhone. Get a phone that has a less restrictive contract instead.
said by n2jtx :Assuming it can be done. Anything can be cracked, given the right amount of time. Even if newer phone models are harder to crack, it is still possible to get different phones which are unlocked if one goes to Ebay or buys them from abroad.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO | Somethings you just can't see clearly with such a clouded vision. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by Skippy25 :Somethings you just can't see clearly with such a clouded vision. Like what?
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·BroadVoice
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :And I would dare say that if Congress wants to waste our time and money investigating this non-issue, then it needs to extend its break. Most of the problems highlighted can be worked around with no need for government bungling: You don't want a crippled phone? Do some research and buy one that isn't crippled. I know that for T-Mobile and AT&T there is nothing stopping you from taking a SIM from your existing phone and putting into a new phone that you buy yourself. You don't like nickel and dime billing? Get a pre-paid phone. You don't like restrictive user agreements or contracts? Pay the full price for your phone and you won't have to deal with one. You don't like how a GSM-based phone is locked to a particular provider? You can pay someone to unlock it for you. Exactly. I read this news item and I was left scratching my head. Sure, some phones sold in the US are "crippled" by the provider, but as you mentioned, a consumer is under no obligation to purchase that phone from that carrier. Anyone who knows how to use the internet can buy an unlocked phone (on ebay, from the manufacturer, or from an importer) for a marginally higher cost. The only reason that phones are so cheap in the US is BECAUSE they are subsidized by the carrier, who then has the right to do whatever they want to them! Dont want it crippled? Then pay a little more and get it unlocked! The funny thing is that most import shops will even give you between $100 and $300 off the cost of the unlocked phone if you sign up for a new service agreement through them! You then end up paying about the same, for the same exact phone, AND it is unlocked and "uncrippled". It shocks me that on a site like this, with so many people who should be technically inclined, that people are still complaining about things like this. Lets cut to the chase here. If you think you are going to get a top of the line phone with no contract, not subsidized by a carrier, with all the features you want, it wont cost $99. Just for the record, unlocked phones in Europe and Asia also dont cost $99, so quit your bitching and pony up the cash. Top of the line phones all cost a few hundred dollars so you have a choice; subsidize, unlock, or just deal with it.
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я люблю Денди! |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
·Comcast
·Patriot Media
| reply to pnh102
If we paid for our phones ourselves wireless rates would go down. But you do pay for the phone, in terms of a contract, and the rates. Dont think for a second that your getting a phone completely free, it has to be paid for somehow. I use a GSM unlocked phone, none of the ones offered from ATT were attractive. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by DaveNJ :If we paid for our phones ourselves wireless rates would go down. How do you figure?
Wireless rates are set strictly by market forces. Even if what you said is correct, why would a cell phone company want to lower its rates when it can charge higher rates and make more money?
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :...I agree here, but who allowed these mergers, in both industries? It was the government. This proves that government is part of the problem here and that more intervention by the government will make things worse. 1. run against big government and get elected
2. appoint idiots, fools and industry sycophants to positions of power in the govt
3. the idiots, fools and sycophants proceed to give industry anything it wants, with disastrous results
Voila! "the government will make things worse"
The problem here isn't "the government", it's those idiots, fools and sycophants that are running it. Government has been competent in the past and will be again (someday), when it is run by competent people. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by nasadude :The problem here isn't "the government", it's those idiots, fools and sycophants that are running it. Government has been competent in the past and will be again (someday), when it is run by competent people. Government has been run like this in the USA since 1789. Keep dreaming if you think it will change.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :said by Skippy25 :Somethings you just can't see clearly with such a clouded vision. Like what? Like the fact that no matter what excuses or explanations you come up with, the U.S. wireless industry is raping consumers, using spectrum that belongs to the public and being allowed to get away with it by the gov't.
for that matter, it's happening in the wireline industry too, except instead of spectrum it's public rights of way. |
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nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD | reply to pnh102
so in your opinion, the government has never done anything good and never will? |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by nasadude :so in your opinion, the government has never done anything good and never will? Did I say this?
I believe that the federal government can do a great job at tackling the responsibilities with which it was tasked in the US Constitution.
Making iPhones work with Verizon is not one of those responsibilities.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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