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« Caught Red-Handed
This is a sub-selection from Dumb...

B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
reply to Lumberjack

Re: Dumb...

said by Lumberjack:

So instead of trying to stop piracy, we want to remove privacy. As much as I dispise the GPL for it's viral properties I think this is great .
What's to despise? Developer X says "you can redistribute my work as long as you show people what you changed". If you don't like it, don't redistribute his frickin' code. Why is that a bad thing?

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function


Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12
said by B:

said by Lumberjack:

So instead of trying to stop piracy, we want to remove privacy. As much as I dispise the GPL for it's viral properties I think this is great .
What's to despise? Developer X says "you can redistribute my work as long as you show people what you changed". If you don't like it, don't redistribute his frickin' code. Why is that a bad thing?

-- B
The GPL as a business license is a crock. While in theory, it's nice to think the GPL should be applied to all free software, you would be surprised how many businesses won't use GPL'd software due to the grey areas and license loopholes it leaves wide open. We just had to make such a comparison and decided we can't use MySQL, so we went with PostgreSQL.

We donate to the open source projects we use, but we're damn sure not going to allow anyone to redistribute our code simply because we included a GPL piece in it. The GPL is holding back a lot of very good projects from achieving commercial success.
--
Pretty Fly for a White Guy™

B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
I understand; that's well written and sounds well-meaning, but isn't it just a bit ridiculous? The GPL is "holding back" these projects because the stubborn writers of the code YOU WANT TO SELL won't let you do it? But... they have no obligation to let you sell their code on your terms! You're perfectly free to seek separate alternative licenses from those developers or to seek alternatives, as you've done.

Why aren't you just as mad at all the OTHER developers (you know, your closed-source competitors who write software that competes with yours) for not letting you freely redistribute /resell THEIR code on your terms? Why be angry only with GPL developers?

I understand your point, but it's just backwards. It's only "holding back" projects that seek to close up their sources, like your own. Agreed, I suppose that much is arguably "viral".

That said, I'm certainly glad you're respecting the license anyhow! Lesser companies don't even think twice.

-- B

P.S. I'd point out how funny the part about "damn sure not going to allow anyone to redistribute our code" is for someone who wants to take advantage of redistributed "Free" (GPL) software, but I think it's self-apparent...
--
In a realm outside causality and function


Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12
said by B:

I understand; that's well written and sounds well-meaning, but isn't it just a bit ridiculous? The GPL is "holding back" these projects because the stubborn writers of the code YOU WANT TO SELL won't let you do it? But... they have no obligation to let you sell their code on your terms! You're perfectly free to seek separate alternative licenses from those developers or to seek alternatives, as you've done.

Why aren't you just as mad at all the OTHER developers (you know, your closed-source competitors who write software that competes with yours) for not letting you freely redistribute /resell THEIR code on your terms? Why be angry only with GPL developers?

I understand your point, but it's just backwards. It's only "holding back" projects that seek to close up their sources, like your own. Agreed, I suppose that much is arguably "viral".

That said, I'm certainly glad you're respecting the license anyhow! Lesser companies don't even think twice.

-- B

P.S. I'd point out how funny the part about "damn sure not going to allow anyone to redistribute our code" is for someone who wants to take advantage of redistributed "Free" (GPL) software, but I think it's self-apparent...
The GPL is too vague ... we aren't modifying any of the GPL code we use, but the guts of our software is patented. What's to stop someone from forcing us to open our code and prove it's not violating the GPL?

We enjoy supporting the FOSS community ... as I said we donate to every open source project we utilize ... and those amounts will do nothing but go up as we make more money ... but just because I want to embed a SQL server in my code doesn't mean I should have to expose HOW I use it. If I take your SQL server source code and modify it, then by all means hell yes I should release that modified portion of the code ... but the GPL is too vague and being sued or having to sue because someone is claiming "fair use under the GPL" could sink companies like us.
--
Pretty Fly for a White Guy™

B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
Okay. Being neither a lawyer nor a hard core developer I can't really argue with your conclusions, though from my limited understanding there are ways to honor the GPL while keeping the sources of your "value added" parts closed. (Diffs and hashes and 3rd party audits, etc. After all, if you can prove that the GPL sources you DO provide recompile back to the corresponding pieces of GPL binary you ship, that should be enough.)

I mean, lots of companies do it! I come across them all the time, and some of them even appear to make money. Fonality / Trixbox is one that I was just looking at a few days ago. They have a "Free" version and several paid premium versions, but ALL of them see to be GPL licensed.

»www.trixbox.com/about-us/terms-a···nditions

They do have a more closed, hosted companion service.

No, I don't have any idea how they keep from getting ripped off when their paid customers decide to redistribute. Frankly, if it takes going to the evil lengths that Sveasoft has gone to (essentially waging a war against its own customers) then I'd rather people just take your approach and stay closed.

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function


steelingbox

join:2005-07-09
Deltona, FL
reply to Matt3
said by Matt3:

said by B:

said by Lumberjack:

So instead of trying to stop piracy, we want to remove privacy. As much as I dispise the GPL for it's viral properties I think this is great .
What's to despise? Developer X says "you can redistribute my work as long as you show people what you changed". If you don't like it, don't redistribute his frickin' code. Why is that a bad thing?

-- B
The GPL as a business license is a crock. While in theory, it's nice to think the GPL should be applied to all free software, you would be surprised how many businesses won't use GPL'd software due to the grey areas and license loopholes it leaves wide open. We just had to make such a comparison and decided we can't use MySQL, so we went with PostgreSQL.

We donate to the open source projects we use, but we're damn sure not going to allow anyone to redistribute our code simply because we included a GPL piece in it. The GPL is holding back a lot of very good projects from achieving commercial success.


steelingbox

join:2005-07-09
Deltona, FL
reply to Matt3
said by Matt3:

said by B:

I understand; that's well written and sounds well-meaning, but isn't it just a bit ridiculous? The GPL is "holding back" these projects because the stubborn writers of the code YOU WANT TO SELL won't let you do it? But... they have no obligation to let you sell their code on your terms! You're perfectly free to seek separate alternative licenses from those developers or to seek alternatives, as you've done.

Why aren't you just as mad at all the OTHER developers (you know, your closed-source competitors who write software that competes with yours) for not letting you freely redistribute /resell THEIR code on your terms? Why be angry only with GPL developers?

I understand your point, but it's just backwards. It's only "holding back" projects that seek to close up their sources, like your own. Agreed, I suppose that much is arguably "viral".

That said, I'm certainly glad you're respecting the license anyhow! Lesser companies don't even think twice.

-- B

P.S. I'd point out how funny the part about "damn sure not going to allow anyone to redistribute our code" is for someone who wants to take advantage of redistributed "Free" (GPL) software, but I think it's self-apparent...
The GPL is too vague ... we aren't modifying any of the GPL code we use, but the guts of our software is patented. What's to stop someone from forcing us to open our code and prove it's not violating the GPL?

We enjoy supporting the FOSS community ... as I said we donate to every open source project we utilize ... and those amounts will do nothing but go up as we make more money ... but just because I want to embed a SQL server in my code doesn't mean I should have to expose HOW I use it. If I take your SQL server source code and modify it, then by all means hell yes I should release that modified portion of the code ... but the GPL is too vague and being sued or having to sue because someone is claiming "fair use under the GPL" could sink companies like us.


steelingbox

join:2005-07-09
Deltona, FL
reply to Matt3
Dont you know that PostgreSQL is released with the same license that mysql is using? So you better pull the plug on that move quickly.


steelingbox

join:2005-07-09
Deltona, FL
reply to Matt3
I will stand corrected, the PostgreSQL server is released under the BSD license.


Lumberjack
Premium
join:2003-01-18
Newport News, VA

1 recommendation

reply to B
said by B:

I understand; that's well written and sounds well-meaning, but isn't it just a bit ridiculous? The GPL is "holding back" these projects because the stubborn writers of the code YOU WANT TO SELL won't let you do it? But... they have no obligation to let you sell their code on your terms! You're perfectly free to seek separate alternative licenses from those developers or to seek alternatives, as you've done.

Why aren't you just as mad at all the OTHER developers (you know, your closed-source competitors who write software that competes with yours) for not letting you freely redistribute /resell THEIR code on your terms? Why be angry only with GPL developers?

I understand your point, but it's just backwards. It's only "holding back" projects that seek to close up their sources, like your own. Agreed, I suppose that much is arguably "viral".

That said, I'm certainly glad you're respecting the license anyhow! Lesser companies don't even think twice.

-- B

P.S. I'd point out how funny the part about "damn sure not going to allow anyone to redistribute our code" is for someone who wants to take advantage of redistributed "Free" (GPL) software, but I think it's self-apparent...
I don't know where you came up with anybody being "mad" at authors of GPL applications. I don't hate the people, I dislike the license. I'm sure I may offend a lot of people but I see the GPL as a "hippie" license with the bravado of "hey may, everything should be free man".

It hinders commercial software development on two fronts, one, a commercial software company that doesn't release source code for trade-secret reasons can't use it and two, even if a company agreed to release the source, they can't charge for their own improvements.

If you look at the BSD community you will find a different story. Software is truly free and open-source. Companies can improve it, resell it for profit whether the source is re-released or not. The BEST example ever of this is Apple and OS X. Apple was able to take the BSD operating system and use it under the hood and not be worried by GPL clauses. They also in turn were able to recontribute back to the base BSD operating system teams without fear of GPL licensing war-mongers.

The bottom line is this, if you want to give it away, give it away and let it be free. Don't be anti-greedy with the "I don't want to sell so dammit, nobody else can make any money either, even if they improve it." In general I'm sure most GPL authors don't really care, they just end up with that license because it's trendy and more than likely they have something in there code that is GPL licensed.

Honestly, as my argument is what it is I am thankful for tools like GNU's compiler and the various Linux flavors. And if the authors only thought they would be successful under the GPL, so be it. On that note I should say that I'm a NetBSD user/supporter and eventual developer if ever have the time. That said, any code I work on will either be BSD or commercially licensed. If it's going to be free, it's going to be free.
--
»www.fairtax.org

wtansill
Ncc1701

join:2000-10-10
Falls Church, VA
reply to Matt3
said by Matt3:

We donate to the open source projects we use, but we're damn sure not going to allow anyone to redistribute our code simply because we included a GPL piece in it. The GPL is holding back a lot of very good projects from achieving commercial success.
Then use another license. It's not as if there aren't plenty to choose from.


Lumberjack
Premium
join:2003-01-18
Newport News, VA
said by wtansill:

said by Matt3:

We donate to the open source projects we use, but we're damn sure not going to allow anyone to redistribute our code simply because we included a GPL piece in it. The GPL is holding back a lot of very good projects from achieving commercial success.
Then use another license. It's not as if there aren't plenty to choose from.
You can't use another license if the code used in your project is GPL code. You are forced to use GPL as your license by including GPL code so really, they have to find other code to reuse or re-invent the wheel themselves.
--
»www.fairtax.org

wtansill
Ncc1701

join:2000-10-10
Falls Church, VA
said by Lumberjack:

said by wtansill:

said by Matt3:

We donate to the open source projects we use, but we're damn sure not going to allow anyone to redistribute our code simply because we included a GPL piece in it. The GPL is holding back a lot of very good projects from achieving commercial success.
Then use another license. It's not as if there aren't plenty to choose from.
You can't use another license if the code used in your project is GPL code. You are forced to use GPL as your license by including GPL code so really, they have to find other code to reuse or re-invent the wheel themselves.
My point was exactly that -- find code that uses another license, but it was late, and I did not make my point clearly. D'oh!
--
"In every generation, there are those who want to rule well - but they mean to rule. They promise to be good masters - but they mean to be master."
--Daniel Webster


joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
kudos:6
reply to Lumberjack
said by Lumberjack:

said by wtansill:

said by Matt3:

We donate to the open source projects we use, but we're damn sure not going to allow anyone to redistribute our code simply because we included a GPL piece in it. The GPL is holding back a lot of very good projects from achieving commercial success.
Then use another license. It's not as if there aren't plenty to choose from.
You can't use another license if the code used in your project is GPL code. You are forced to use GPL as your license by including GPL code so really, they have to find other code to reuse or re-invent the wheel themselves.
Not exactly. I can write an application that uses MySQL for database storage but that doesnt mean I need to make my code GPL. Of course if I include MySQL binaries to make install easier I need to distribute the source for MySQL and MySQL will always be licensed under GPL.
--
Am Heimcomputer sitz' ich hier, und programmier' die Zukunft mir


Lumberjack
Premium
join:2003-01-18
Newport News, VA

1 recommendation

Correct joako.

But if I used a GPL based library that's not GPL-lite to interact with MySql, then I'd have to release my code as well. So instead I'd have to write that shared library all over again (from my own invention, even though it's going to be the same functionality) to prevent having to release under GPL terms.

A lot of companies avoid GPL just because of what you said... they don't want to be hammered by having to re-release source because they use a binary even though they don't have their own product in GPL domain. They also then are concerned by customers not wanting to buy it because GPL authors can wash their hands of any liability where people that reuse it (as in your MySql) example can not.

Forum: Sorry for my GPL comments taking the news thread way off topic .
--
»www.fairtax.org