chucko
join:2003-12-15
USA
4 edits | WNHDEB111 Review and Impression
On paper it looks good - paired access point/bridge units using the 5GHZ band with 802.11a/802.11N technology, 23 available channels, push button setup, automatic QOS, 6 or more internal antennas in each device, yadda yadda yadda.
This product even won the Best of CES Award for home networking at the recently concluded 2008 CES in Las Vegas.
»www.netgear.com/Products/APsWire···111.aspx
But just like any other recent wireless devices from the major manufacturers, the real world shows that again we have a product that over promises and under delivers.
I've been using this product for the last several days, and while the setup was for the most part simple and easy, I'm finding that the units are lockup prone (requiring a power off to bring back to life) and are unable to provide anything even close to their rated speed when separated by 20 feet and a couple of walls in my home. Even though the 5GHZ band is touted as being interference free and has 23 available channels, I noticed that the data rate as shows by the web based administrative console will vary greatly over a short period of time (a minute or so) and the two units seem to become disassociated from each other often, even though the indicated signal strength is high (70%). This makes for a sporadic and uneven web browsing experience. Forget about high res video streaming or anything along those lines.
Netgear obviously let this product out the door way too early - their website does not even have a support page up on it about this product. If you click on the support link here is what you see:
»kbserver.netgear.com/products/WNHDEB111.asp
So I'm boxing it back up and returning it to Best Buy.
Way to go Netgear! Another real winner here! NOT!!!!
Added note:
I left the system up overnight. When I looked at the logs this morning, they showed that the two units lost connection with each other and re-connected 418 times between midnight and 7AM. This is with a 5GHZ Wireless-N connection and a signal strength that is always higher than 70%. Considering that these units are operating in the "interference free" 5GHZ band and are automatically supposed to select the best channel to use I find this to be totally amazing.
What an absolute POS. |
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Cliff Zinphron
@rr.com
| I bought one of these as Best Buy as well. Best damn piece of networking equipment I've ever bought for my home!
I stream HD Divx files to my XBox 360 like a champ. Huge files mind you. I haven't hooked it up to my notebook to test speeds, but I don't really care its the lolcat's meow.
I have no clue as to why you'd have so many disconnects. I'm running Wireless-N mode only. WPA2. Trans rate - auto. Channel Width - auto (20-40 MHz) One unit on my lan - ap mode. Other unit downstairs - bridge mode. 63 character pre-shared key. I show it has deauthenticated one time in over 8 days of uptime.
I was about to give up and pay to have a cat5 cable ran, but it was going to be an expensive pain the way my home is built.
Where did you find signal strength? I can't find that ANYWHERE in the web client. Or were you using a 3rd party tool???
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chucko
join:2003-12-15
USA
2 edits | Glad your works. Mine totally sucked but maybe it was just defective. Who knows. It sure didn't work and Netgear's tech support was no help at all.
I tried N only, A only, with and without various levels of security. I pretty much tried all the variables to rule out anything I could think of that might be an external factor.
I also tried several locations. No dice.
You can find the signal strength by clicking on the Wireless link in the lower left corner of the screen when logged into the unit that is the Access Point. You don't seem to be able to see the signal strength when logged into a unit that is configured as a bridge.
I'd also be interested if you could check your logs to see if you see any disconnects or link up/link down disassociation type of behavior. These things seem to disconnect and reconnect relatively fast and you might not notice if you didn't look in the logs. You need to look in the logs for the access point and the bridge to see both ends of the problem. |
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ANSWER
@netgear.com
| Hi,
I am the Product Line Manager for the WNHDEB111. I am extremely sorry you have had a bad experience.
Would it be possible for you to provide me your contact info.
I will arrange a call with our engineer next week to see what is going on.
You can reach me at som.choudhury@netgear.com
Thanks
-Som |
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stephenju
Premium
join:2002-05-17
Bedford, MA
| reply to chucko
I am also very interested in getting this kid to bridge my networks between 2 floors. Can anyone comment on the actual speed you are able to achieve?
Som
It's great to see vendor people eager to make things right. But I hope you can consider registering here for an account so people can find your posts more easily. Thanks. |
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Philippe
@ericsson.ca
| I am disappointed that the Ethernet interface is 10/100 and not Gigabit.
Why offering a 802.11n (300Mpbs) air interface that will:
1) be downgraded to 100 Mbps on the Ethernet side
2) downgrade most of the Gigabit router to fast Ethernet
Mr Netgear, are you planning to release a Gigabit version of your product?
Thanks |
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Mediaman
join:2008-02-04
| My setup us would be as follows
a) At one end of the house I would have a cable modem and several PC's connected to a wired Netgear router. To this I would add the first WNHDE111 access point.
b) At the other end of the house I would have the other WNHDE111 unit (acting as a bridge), and a PC hardwired to it.
So do I understand that while any N-enabled wireless device would operate at up to 300Mbps, the bridged PC would be restricted to 100Mbps?? Yup, would have bee nice to eliminate the bottleneck with a Gigabit version of this device. That said, the bridged PC would be no more limited that any other wired PC's (resticted by the nono-gigbit router). So gigabit is nioe, but can still be limited by non-gigabit router, switches and perhaps even cat 5 cabling.
Still, point taken - 5 Ghz, 802.11N and Gigabit ports would indeed be the triple threat. |
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chucko
join:2003-12-15
USA
| reply to ANSWER
said by ANSWER :
Hi,
I am the Product Line Manager for the WNHDEB111. I am extremely sorry you have had a bad experience.
Would it be possible for you to provide me your contact info.
I will arrange a call with our engineer next week to see what is going on.
You can reach me at som.choudhury@netgear.com
Thanks
-Som
I applaud you for being here and offering to help. Unfortunately, I have already returned the unit to Best Buy for a refund.
It is also unfortunate that your online tech support was unavailable and that your phone support personnel were unable to solve the problem. |
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chucko
join:2003-12-15
USA
1 edit | reply to ANSWER
duplicate post, sorry. |
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mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
| reply to chucko
said by chucko  :Considering that these units are operating in the "interference free" 5GHZ band and are automatically supposed to select the best channel to use I find this to be totally amazing. As a point of interest in your home environment are you using any wireless phones that transmit in the 5.8 GHz range and or do you have any other wireless gear [baby monitors, remote control devices, security monitors, etc.] that uses the 5.8 GHz range?
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
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stephenju
Premium
join:2002-05-17
Bedford, MA | I just remember that I have a pair of 5.8GHz wireless phones. Does that mean this kit will not work in my house? |
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chucko
join:2003-12-15
USA
| I have no 5GHZ wireless phones in my home, so I doubt that interference is an issue with the problems that I experienced.
Besides, here is what I read from the product documentation:
9. How does it enable HD performance over wireless?
"WNHDE111 uses high performance 6 internal MetaMaterial antennas to be able to stream HD video seamlessly even in harsh wireless environments. It uses the 5 GHz band which is relatively interference free. It uses Smart Antenna technology to listen and adapt to the wireless environment. It also has an enhanced level of Quality of Service (QOS) for jitter-free Video Streaming and lag-free video gaming."
This plus the fact that there are up to 23 available channels in the 5GHZ band would lead a person to believe that there would be minimal issues with other equipment.
I did manually change the channels on my units just to see if it had any positive effect, it did not.
I probably just got a defective unit. Nothing else seems to make sense. |
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mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
| reply to stephenju
said by stephenju :I just remember that I have a pair of 5.8GHz wireless phones. Does that mean this kit will not work in my house? If the WNHDEB111 works as it should you should not have any issues under normal circumstances.
My interest in asking chucko was to determine if s/he may have had other stuff using the same 5.8 GHz frequency.
If the Netgear WNHDEB111 works as it should then other stuff using the same 5.8 GHz frequency range but different transmit channels 'the gear' should all co-exist. The Key word is if
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
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SouthernLCC
join:2005-11-30
Canton, GA | reply to Philippe
AMEN! I was interested in using it as an Access point. But why only 10/100? Makes very little since on an N product. |
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ANSWER
@comcast.net
| reply to chucko
This is Som Choudhury, Product Line Manager of the Advanced Wireless group at NETGEAR.
Here are a few answers to the questions and issues raised on this forum.
1) 2.4 GHz has only 3 non overlapping channels and a number of devices - neighboring APs, cordless phones, bluetooth devices, microwave ovens all using the 2.4 GHz ISM band. so realistically because of all these interference sources, it is very difficult to sustain a HD video at a high bandwidth using 2.4 gHz frequency. SD Video might be okay, but you cannot get assured HD throughput guaranteed 99.99% of the time as you cannot expect all the devices to be off when you are watching a HD movie.
2) Compared to 2.4, 5 GHz has more number of channels and much less interference sources. Typically it is a few 5.8 Ghz cordless phones that operate on these frequencies. 5 gHz APs in home are still uncommon. Most importantly, there are several non-overlapping channels and hence the AP can switch channels to get better interference free connection.
3) On the issue of Gig ports vs. 10/100 ports - The goal of the product is to stream a minimum of 1 HD 1080p HD stream throughout a single family home. Typically, you should be able to do 2-3 depending on distance from your router to the media devices in your living room. Now each 1080p takes 20 Mbps bandwidth worst case. So you are looking at streaming 20-60 Mbps throughout the home. Your wireless is still the limiting factor in this scenario and not the 10/100 Mbps port on the bridge. I will explain why!
4) Few secrets about WiFi is the 54 Mbps and 300 Mbps you see on all products are the maximum PHY (physical layer) rate. The actual TCP/UDP throughput (which we call the actual payload removing the overhead of packet header, correction bits and so on) is usually half and then it falls with distance. This is the physical nature of any Wireless. The bandwidth falls with distance from the source. Case in point, take your existing Wireless-G AP. It says 54 Mbps in the box, but you will be glad if you get 20 Mbps at close distance and 10 Mbps across 2 rooms and lucky to get 2 Mbps in your corner bedroom.
Gig ports are expensive and if you look at the true value of the product in replacing cat5 cables running from one end of the house to another, 10/100 ports do the job for your high performance gaming and streaming multiple HD videos. Gig ports will give you over 10/100 speeds at close distance, which implies you could just simply wire it up with an ethernet cable.
Hope this explains.
Best Regards
-Som |
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stephenju
Premium
join:2002-05-17
Bedford, MA
| Som.
Thanks for your detailed reply. I am glad a vendor is clear and forward with real information.
I am still considering of buying this product. But one thing I'd like to see is more wired ports on the unit. Saves a separate switch when connecting a bunch of nearby machines to a wireless network. I think the unit already has switch circuitry on it, just need more ports.
Thanks. |
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mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
2 edits | reply to ANSWER
said by ANSWER :This is Som Choudhury, Product Line Manager of the Advanced Wireless group at NETGEAR. Here are a few answers to the questions and issues raised on this forum.
4) Few secrets about WiFi is the 54 Mbps and 300 Mbps you see on all products are the maximum PHY (physical layer) rate. The actual TCP/UDP throughput (which we call the actual payload removing the overhead of packet header, correction bits and so on) is usually half and then it falls with distance. This is the physical nature of any Wireless. The bandwidth falls with distance from the source. Case in point, take your existing Wireless-G AP. It says 54 Mbps in the box, but you will be glad if you get 20 Mbps at close distance and 10 Mbps across 2 rooms and lucky to get 2 Mbps in your corner bedroom.
Gig ports are expensive and if you look at the true value of the product in replacing cat5 cables running from one end of the house to another, 10/100 ports do the job for your high performance gaming and streaming multiple HD videos. Gig ports will give you over 10/100 speeds at close distance, which implies you could just simply wire it up with an ethernet cable. I find some of your commentary to be self-serving:
Network transmissions can only be as fast as their slowest link, since there is no way for data to pile-up somewhere if one leg of the journey tried to move faster, and the slowest link in any data chain that includes the WNHDEB111 is its 10/100 LAN port. Data cannot [and will-not] move faster than 100Mbps because that is the speed at which attached devices communicate with the WNHDEB111. So a GIG port is important to have. And Gig ports *today* are not expensive relative to how expensive they have been in the past.
Since the WNHDEB111 is 'N' gear and supports MIMO then I have to wonder where you are comming from insofar as the WNHDEB111 is concerned -- IF an effective MIMO implementation is factored in THEN some of your arguments IMO are flawed insoafr as range and througput is concerned. This topic is based on the WNHDEB111 and not other non-MIMO technologies.
If properly implemented -- Explicitly what differentiates MIMO from all other technologies is that MIMO requires not only multiple antennas and radios on both the transmit and receive sides of the link but also the ability to do spatial multiplexing.
Spatial multiplexing allows for the transmission of multiple distinct data-stream's over multiple radios in the same band at the same time, effectively doubling [or tripling] data throughput.
A proper and effective implementation of MIMO Technology should be capable of listening to multiple signals simultaneously. So if any one of those signals is disrupted, the GOOD MIMO gear automatically maintains your network connection and throughput while at the same time ALSO extending your range within your home or small-office.
After reading your commentary its apparent to me that Netgear's MIMO implantation is flawed -- I now will not consider the Netgear WNHDEB111 kit.
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
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Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
| reply to ANSWER
A long winded effort by an enganeer, to state use the 1/3 rule for wifi throughput (54=18, 108=36). In the case of "N" its more like 1/4 (300=75). For marketing reasons companies always quote two way throughput, and lets face it, we usually are asking one way throughput (how fast can I download etc...). The rest is standard losses due to wiring, propogation and so forth.
As far as expense, mozerd, your forgetting that in terms of volumes it can be expensive. Taken on one unit, an extra $3 may seem small potatoes, but companies looking at 500,000 units ....... well I think you get the picture.
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Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"
LlamaWorks Equipment |
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Zaibatsu
@comcast.net
| reply to chucko
I'd love to get a few of these I have a RangeMax 240 router, any upgrade suggestions would be appreciated. I need to stream HD 1080p to multiple HTPCs in a 5000 Square Foot house, with a Home Theater in the basement as well. Any help would be appreciated. In addition I'm in a mixed mode enviroment, 802.11g, g+ and the 240 stuff |
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ender9
join:2008-02-13
| I am very interested in this as well and just for clarification ...
Netgear's WNHDEB111 HD/Gaming 5GHz Wireless-N Networking kit says the wireless AP and bridge have 6 antenna's with MIMO abilities giving speeds up to 300Mb/s if *I believe* using 2x2 MIMO, yet the ethernet interfaces are 10/100 ports.
Doesn't that make the WNHDE111's completely useless as far as MIMO data rates go assuming every other device on the network is gigabit and high-end? I mean, the data can only move as fast as the slowest part. Am I missing something here?
If this is the case, does anyone know of any 802.11n MIMO gear that does not have this bottlenecking problem? |
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