mikepaul
join:2008-03-10
Columbia, SC
| reply to flunkout
Re: WNHDEB111 Review and Impression
I got a remote control switch and so far (2 days) it works OK.
»www.amazon.com/Koolatron-IR-Remo···006II49A
The programming wasn't a snap, but since the switch was responding to ALL IR traffic I needed to set it to just use the PowerToggle event my Logitech 360 remote downloaded from the support site. The button on the top of the switch makes a more convenient on/off switch for rebooting the bridge than reaching around and pulling the plug when it disconnects, so if I do experience trouble it's at least more convenient.
Still hoping for a firmware update that keeps the bridge going 24/7/365 though... |
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another_owner
@comcast.net
| reply to David803sc
I was able to find an executable (ConfigAssistant.exe) on the disc, but had the benefit(?) of windows. That utility allowed me to change the ip address of the units to be compatible with my network and then I could browse the admin web gui directly at the new ip. Hope this is helpful. |
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David803sc
Premium
join:2001-02-22
Charleston, SC
| reply to chucko
I just picked up two of these today and have all macs how do I connect to the web interface for configuration and firmware upgrade? the CD it came with says launch the index.htm file on the CD that file does not exist any help would be appreciated thanks?
--
Home Telecom 5Mb Symmetrical Service, DLink DIR-655, 2 Linksys 5 Port Gigabit Switches, Windows Server 2003, Windows XP Media Center Edition, MAC OS X, MSNTV2, Xbox 360, Vonage Linksys PAP2v2, 2 DISH Network 622's |
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Mediaman
join:2008-02-04
| reply to mozerd
said by mozerd  :said by Mediaman So who then does manufacture an 802.11N / 5ghz / Gigabit wireless access point that has a Properly implemented MIMO system. ? For the consumer market no single OEM has yet produced 5Ghz gear utilizing MIMO properly based on my experiences so far. IMO, currently the only CHIPSET that incorporates the MIMO technology properly is called the AGN400 and that chipset has been frozen by Qualcomm ... mozerd...
What is your opinion on the LinkSys lineup ( eg WAP4400N or WRVS4400N) with respect to 'properly implelemented MIMO' ??
I note that unit, while not 5 GHZ, it does have advantages over the WNHDE111 in that it has gigbit ports and operates at 802.11g as well as 801.11n... but I am unclear if it has a poor or good MIMO implementation. |
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flunkout
join:2002-07-27
San Jose, CA
| reply to mikepaul
I'm in the same situation as you, mikepaul. Hopefully someone will answer whether this product would be upgradeable to the final 802.11n spec. $200 is a lot to spend on a product that may not be fully compatible.
I was hoping that the 802.11n spec would have been finalized by now. |
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mikepaul
join:2008-03-10
Columbia, SC
1 edit | reply to ANSWER
said by ANSWER :
NEtworking Enthusiasts,
This is Som Choudhury, Product Line Manager of Advanced Wireless from NETGEAR .
...
The WNHDE111 is 802.11n Draft 2.0 certified by WiFi Alliance.
...
-Som
Hi. I've had the WNHDEB111 kit since this past Saturday.
The troubling part of my purchase decision was that the logo seen on other Netgear packages, the one I read about that indicated upgradeability to the 802.11N Final Spec, was missing from the WNHDEB111 package. Is that logo specific to routers, or is there another reason it's missing?
The two units have exhibited the disconnect problem documented on the firmware download page, but work better when not in Auto mode. However, I still have odd issues, like using the Configuration utility to log in to the bridge unit attached to my Xbox 360 and having it crash after submitting the password. It came right back after pulling the plug, but this does make me worry.
Is antenna orientation important? The two units are on the same floor, separated by 22 feet and two walls. I have them parallel to each other, but is that optimal?
My HD streaming is to the Xbox 360, so a gigabit NIC isn't a big deal now, but if you were to think about upgrading that for next year's model, I do have gigabit in the PC near the 360 and wouldn't mind sharing the connection.
Thanks... |
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higginst
VIP
join:2005-04-16
Earlysville, VA
| reply to chucko
Review just posted:
»www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/···0333/96/
Actually does pretty good for maximum throughput.
Not so much for distance.
--
Small Network Help @ »smallnetbuilder.com |
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mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
2 edits | reply to Mediaman
said by Mediaman So who then does manufacture an 802.11N / 5ghz / Gigabit wireless access point that has a Properly implemented MIMO system. ?
For the consumer market no single OEM has yet produced 5Ghz gear utilizing MIMO properly based on my experiences so far. IMO, currently the only CHIPSET that incorporates the MIMO technology properly is called the AGN400 and that chipset has been frozen by Qualcomm due [EDIT] to what I suspect are legal issues. Hopefully those legal issues may be resolved soon.
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
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Mediaman
join:2008-02-04
| reply to mozerd
said by mozerd : it sound to me like the Netgear WNHDEB111 has implemented a Typical Smart Antenna System ... which IMO is why you're not going to get the performance that many should be able to get with a Properly implemented MIMO system. So who then does manufacture an 802.11N / 5ghz / Gigabit wireless access point that has a Properly implemented MIMO system. ??? |
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REGHIR
@wicoff.com
| reply to chucko
Just to let everyone know new firmware released as of 2/28/08
WNHDE111 Firmware Version 1.2.7_1.0.1
Published Feb. 28, 2008
New Features & Bug Fixes: For the latest troubleshooting, see the WNHDE111 Support Page. Recent changes include:
Cannot Connect Gaming Console
Troubleshooting Wireless Products
Improving Wireless Range
Fixed unstable wireless connection issues with Intel Centrino 4965AGN 802.11n adapter.
Fixed javascript error in access point "Advanced Wireless Settings" page
Fixed the bug where the access point "Logs" page sometimes takes long time to display or time out
Some other minor web GUI bug fixes
Known Issues
In 11n mode, WEP or TKIP-only WPA-PSK do not get high throughput, as it's not recommended by the 11n spec. Recommend to run WPA mixed mode, or WPA2 only.
In Safari web-browser, a few of the bridge Web GUI's pages cannot be displayed completely: The table in Status category's "Wireless", "Logs", "Statistics" and "WISH sessions" pages are not displayed.
Reason: This is because the old Safari browser does not support XML format HTML display. Upgrading to the new Safari version should get it to work.
Centrino ABG adapter on some PCs might not detect the AP through a Scan, manually setting the SSID and security will work.
In noisy environment and with heavy traffic, the WNHDE111 bridge occasionally disconnects from the WNHDE111 access point for a few seconds and reconnects to the AP. |
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Mediaman
join:2008-02-04
| reply to Cliff Zinphron
said by Cliff Zinphron :
I bought one of these as Best Buy as well. Best damn piece of networking equipment I've ever bought for my home! I stream HD Divx files to my XBox 360 like a champ. Huge files mind you. I haven't hooked it up to my notebook to test speeds, but I don't really care its the lolcat's meow. Just curious, what type of 5GHz network card to you have in your laptop?
I have an Intel 2200bg (2.4 GZ) which I know cannot work... thinking of a WDNA3100 might be a good choice.
»www.netgear.com/Products/Adapter···100.aspx |
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mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
1 edit | reply to ANSWER
said by ANSWER :
This is Som Choudhury, Product Line Manager of Advanced Wireless from NETGEAR .
Multiple spatial streams make use of multiple paths to send multiple streams of data. This effectively doubles the maximum throughput possible compared to G wireless which has single stream. Also using channel bonding 40 MHz channel it doubles the speed once again. 801.11n also enhances the MAC efficiency.
The WNHDE111 is 802.11n Draft 2.0 certified by WiFi Alliance.
The objective of the WNHDE111 device is to do multiple 1080p HD streams (typically 2-3)typically 20 Mbps each throughout a single family home. If you are close enough in a single room, you will get the benefit of over 100 Mbps with gigabit ports. But you will see as you move out from the source, the effective TCP or UDP wireless throughput typically goes below 100 Mbps in any 802.11n gear and hence putting in gigabit ports on this device currently is an overkill unless later generation of 802.11n supports 450 Mbps or 600 Mbps Maximum PHY rate. Based on my experiences implementing wireless systems in the field MIMO technology properly implemented has the following characteristics:
Properly implemented MIMO systems divide a data stream into multiple unique streams, each of which is modulated and transmitted through a different radio-antenna chain at the same time in the same frequency channel. By taking advantage of multi-path, reflections of the signals, each MIMO receive antenna-radio chain is a linear combination of the multiple transmitted data streams. The data streams are separated at the receiver using MIMO algorithms that rely on estimates of all channels between each transmitter and each receiver.
Each multi-path route can be treated as a separate channel creating multiple virtual wires over which to transmit signals. Properly implemented MIMO employs multiple, spatially separated antennas to take advantage of these virtual wires created by multi-path and transfer more data. In addition to multiplying throughput, range is increased because of an antenna diversity advantage, since each receive antenna has a measurement of each transmitted data stream.
With Properly implemented MIMO systems, the maximum data rate per channel grows linearly with the number of different data streams that are transmitted in the same channel.
A Properly implemented MIMO system is Not a Typical Smart Antenna System -- consider the following:
Typical one-dimensional smart antenna wireless systems sometimes use a combination of beam-forming to focus the transmitted signal energy, and receive combining or receive diversity to capture the strongest signal. Beam-forming may provide better range in certain applications, but serious issues include the creation of hidden nodes, a reduction in the number of clients that can be supported, and power consumption requirements that limit the number of transmit chains. In receive diversity solutions, the diversity antenna switches between multiple antennas to receive the strongest signal and improve reliability, but since there is no additional signal processing the quality of the signal remains the same. Similarly, while receive combining can process signals from multiple antennas to accommodate the affects of fading and multi-path, neither technique increases data rates or capacity.
And from reading your commentary it sound to me like the Netgear WNHDEB111 has implemented a Typical Smart Antenna System ... which IMO is why you're not going to get the performance that many should be able to get with a Properly implemented MIMO system.
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
|
ANSWER
@comcast.net
| reply to chucko
NEtworking Enthusiasts,
This is Som Choudhury, Product Line Manager of Advanced Wireless from NETGEAR .
Multiple spatial streams make use of multiple paths to send multiple streams of data. This effectively doubles the maximum throughput possible compared to G wireless which has single stream. Also using channel bonding 40 MHz channel it doubles the speed once again. 801.11n also enhances the MAC efficiency.
The WNHDE111 is 802.11n Draft 2.0 certified by WiFi Alliance.
What we are talking about is the path loss as you move away from the source and at distance what the actual throughput is. If you look at any material on wireless, the effective throughput goes down with distance. This is plain simple physics. This will happen with or without MIMO. As I explained earlier, the maximum 300 Mbps is the max PHY rate with the effective throughput typically 50-60% of the PHY rate.
The objective of the WNHDE111 device is to do multiple 1080p HD streams (typically 2-3)typically 20 Mbps each throughout a single family home. If you are close enough in a single room, you will get the benefit of over 100 Mbps with gigabit ports. But you will see as you move out from the source, the effective TCP or UDP wireless throughput typically goes below 100 Mbps in any 802.11n gear and hence putting in gigabit ports on this device currently is an overkill unless later generation of 802.11n supports 450 Mbps or 600 Mbps Maximum PHY rate.
I will request you to look at an interesting white paper on Aruba website to learn more about wireless-N.
»www.arubanetworks.com/pdf/techno···.11n.pdf
Thanks
-Som |
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mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
| reply to meowBB
said by meowBB :If it cannot achieve 100Mbit wireless throughput even in close range, 100Mbit ethernet port is enough. That maybe the reason. And the real point is IF it cannot achieve 100Mbit wireless throughput THEN Netgear failed to properly implement MIMO technology for this expensive gear.
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
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meowBB
join:2002-01-21
Hayward, CA | reply to chucko
If it cannot achieve 100Mbit wireless throughput even in close range, 100Mbit ethernet port is enough. That maybe the reason. |
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mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
| reply to ender9
said by ender9 :Doesn't that make the WNHDE111's completely useless as far as MIMO data rates go assuming every other device on the network is Gigabit and high-end? I mean, the data can only move as fast as the slowest part. Am I missing something here? If this is the case, does anyone know of any 802.11n MIMO gear that does not have this bottlenecking problem? Yes the WNHDE111 is inhibited for the reasons that I have already articulated.
IT is difficult to compare Apples to Apples in this instances because the WNHDE111 is unique in it's class of gear -- hopefully in a couple of months the other Vendors may release similar product to the WNHDE111 or I am hoping that Netgear wakes up and improves the WNHDE111 by adding the Gig Ports.
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
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ender9
join:2008-02-13
| reply to Zaibatsu
I am very interested in this as well and just for clarification ...
Netgear's WNHDEB111 HD/Gaming 5GHz Wireless-N Networking kit says the wireless AP and bridge have 6 antenna's with MIMO abilities giving speeds up to 300Mb/s if *I believe* using 2x2 MIMO, yet the ethernet interfaces are 10/100 ports.
Doesn't that make the WNHDE111's completely useless as far as MIMO data rates go assuming every other device on the network is gigabit and high-end? I mean, the data can only move as fast as the slowest part. Am I missing something here?
If this is the case, does anyone know of any 802.11n MIMO gear that does not have this bottlenecking problem? |
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Zaibatsu
@comcast.net
| reply to chucko
I'd love to get a few of these I have a RangeMax 240 router, any upgrade suggestions would be appreciated. I need to stream HD 1080p to multiple HTPCs in a 5000 Square Foot house, with a Home Theater in the basement as well. Any help would be appreciated. In addition I'm in a mixed mode enviroment, 802.11g, g+ and the 240 stuff |
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Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
| reply to ANSWER
A long winded effort by an enganeer, to state use the 1/3 rule for wifi throughput (54=18, 108=36). In the case of "N" its more like 1/4 (300=75). For marketing reasons companies always quote two way throughput, and lets face it, we usually are asking one way throughput (how fast can I download etc...). The rest is standard losses due to wiring, propogation and so forth.
As far as expense, mozerd, your forgetting that in terms of volumes it can be expensive. Taken on one unit, an extra $3 may seem small potatoes, but companies looking at 500,000 units ....... well I think you get the picture.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"
LlamaWorks Equipment |
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mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
2 edits | reply to ANSWER
said by ANSWER :This is Som Choudhury, Product Line Manager of the Advanced Wireless group at NETGEAR. Here are a few answers to the questions and issues raised on this forum.
4) Few secrets about WiFi is the 54 Mbps and 300 Mbps you see on all products are the maximum PHY (physical layer) rate. The actual TCP/UDP throughput (which we call the actual payload removing the overhead of packet header, correction bits and so on) is usually half and then it falls with distance. This is the physical nature of any Wireless. The bandwidth falls with distance from the source. Case in point, take your existing Wireless-G AP. It says 54 Mbps in the box, but you will be glad if you get 20 Mbps at close distance and 10 Mbps across 2 rooms and lucky to get 2 Mbps in your corner bedroom.
Gig ports are expensive and if you look at the true value of the product in replacing cat5 cables running from one end of the house to another, 10/100 ports do the job for your high performance gaming and streaming multiple HD videos. Gig ports will give you over 10/100 speeds at close distance, which implies you could just simply wire it up with an ethernet cable. I find some of your commentary to be self-serving:
Network transmissions can only be as fast as their slowest link, since there is no way for data to pile-up somewhere if one leg of the journey tried to move faster, and the slowest link in any data chain that includes the WNHDEB111 is its 10/100 LAN port. Data cannot [and will-not] move faster than 100Mbps because that is the speed at which attached devices communicate with the WNHDEB111. So a GIG port is important to have. And Gig ports *today* are not expensive relative to how expensive they have been in the past.
Since the WNHDEB111 is 'N' gear and supports MIMO then I have to wonder where you are comming from insofar as the WNHDEB111 is concerned -- IF an effective MIMO implementation is factored in THEN some of your arguments IMO are flawed insoafr as range and througput is concerned. This topic is based on the WNHDEB111 and not other non-MIMO technologies.
If properly implemented -- Explicitly what differentiates MIMO from all other technologies is that MIMO requires not only multiple antennas and radios on both the transmit and receive sides of the link but also the ability to do spatial multiplexing.
Spatial multiplexing allows for the transmission of multiple distinct data-stream's over multiple radios in the same band at the same time, effectively doubling [or tripling] data throughput.
A proper and effective implementation of MIMO Technology should be capable of listening to multiple signals simultaneously. So if any one of those signals is disrupted, the GOOD MIMO gear automatically maintains your network connection and throughput while at the same time ALSO extending your range within your home or small-office.
After reading your commentary its apparent to me that Netgear's MIMO implantation is flawed -- I now will not consider the Netgear WNHDEB111 kit.
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
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