FJ007
@qwest.net
| reply to nwrickert
Re: Where did my spam go?
I work for a medium-sized ISP and recently we have noticed an increase in customers who cannot send to AT&T, yahoo, or sbcglobal, even though the IP address they are sending from is not blacklisted. We pay close attention to RFC compliance, especially reverse DNS matching both the MX record for the zone as well as the mailserver greeting. Sometimes they receive an error message, other times they do not. Here is the latest error message received by a customer:
Response: 553 5.3.0 nlpi046,DNSBL:RBL To request removal of,
xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx, send the complete error message in an E-mail to removeme@sbc.
I have created a yahoo group called Internet Service Providers aimed primarily at ISPs who are experiencing difficulty sending to sbcglobal, AT&T, et al. This group is also open to any user who is having difficulty sending email to these domains, and will be closely moderated. Feel free to join in the discussion! |
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tonyreo
join:2004-02-04
Mentor, OH
| reply to David
Re: Definitely not getting emails
David,
Here is the text of error message:
Delete Prev Next Reply/All Forward/Inline Open Trash 276 of 297 Inbox Draft Junk Mail Sent Trash
Date: Fri 4 Apr 06:10:19 EDT 2008
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Add To Address Book | This is Spam
Subject: Returned mail: Cannot send message within 8 hours
To: breo08@jcu.edu
The original message was received at Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:49:01 -0400 (EDT) from mirapoint.jcu.edu [76.227.135.244]
----- The following addresses had permanent delivery errors ----- tonyreo@scbglobal.net
Reporting-MTA: dns; mirapoint.jcu.edu
Arrival-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:49:01 -0400 (EDT)
Final-Recipient: rfc822; tonyreo@scbglobal.net
Action: failed
Status: 4.4.7
Remote-MTA: DNS; scbglobal.net
Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 06:10:19 -0400 (EDT)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Attachment: message.rfc822 (1k bytes) Open
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:49:01 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Subject: Receipt for message:
To: "Tony"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Delete Prev Next Reply/All Forward/Inline Open Trash 276 of 297 Inbox Draft Junk Mail Sent Trash |
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David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs: | reply to tonyreo
Can you post the error or message you are getting? |
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tonyreo
join:2004-02-04
Mentor, OH | reply to David
I have tried the "removeme@sbc.sbcglobal.net", it didn't work. I hate to complain but what the heck are they doing?
|
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David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs: | reply to Rosie
Did the someone get a bounce message back? If he/she did all they should have to do is send it to removeme@sbc.sbcglobal.net and they typically unblock it. |
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Rosie
@pacbell.net
| reply to nwrickert
Someone sent an email reply to me and CC'd a friend -- he received it, I didn't. (I hadn't put this person's email address into my Outlook Express address book though.) Other reports of not receiving emails also. This is awful. I don't know what to do now. I'm paying $15.99 a month just to keep my stupid sbcglobal.net email address also (my Internet connection is included in my rent). This is ridiculous. |
|
David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs:
 ·DIRECTV
 ·magicjack.com
 ·AT&T Midwest
| reply to rolande
Re: Where did my spam go?
said by rolande  :The good thing is I am married to a super advanced warning system that detects problems the instant they occur. All I know is is when the whining starts about missing email, then there is a problem. No whining going on here yet...  You employ THE WIFE too? What version you running? I am running BLONDE 1.0 rev. 2
--
If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this.
Koetting Ford, Granite City, illinois... YOU'RE FIRED!!
|
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rolande
Certifiable
Premium,Mod
join:2002-05-24
Powell, OH
clubs:
Host:
Linksys
AT&T Midwest
| reply to nwrickert
So, strangely enough I have noticed the same trend in Spam drop off on my own mailserver over the past few weeks which I host behind my DSL line on a static IP using my own direct MX forwarding. I have probably been getting 10% of the normal Spam volume hitting my SpamAssassin filters. I wonder if the DNSBL's have gotten more aggressive. I did a variety of maintenance work and updates to my SpamAssassin install during this time and I thought that was related but the messages are not even getting beyond the intial milters on port 25 if they are even coming in at all. The only stuff I see getting through has fairly valid headers and SpamAssassin has been catching pretty much all of that crap.
The good thing is I am married to a super advanced warning system that detects problems the instant they occur. All I know is is when the whining starts about missing email, then there is a problem. No whining going on here yet...
--
Ignorance is temporary...stupidity lasts forever!
»www.thewaystation.com/
»blog.thewaystation.com/ |
|
justbits
More fiber than ATT can handle
Premium
join:2003-01-08
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to David
Re: Email domains w/Disposable or Wildcard Addresses now a PITA
This is a great way for AT+T to lose some of the more advanced customers that run services from their home DSL line.
With this change, the primary alternatives are:
* switch to a different provider that provides a static IP address. (For me, SpeakEasy, Covad, Lightning Bolt DSL, maybe others.)
* switch to a business package that has a static IP address.
* find a third party to pay that provides wildcard email domain address forwarding.
Unless this is a marketing decision to get people running email servers to switch to business accounts (non-RBLed static IPs), I don't see how preventing wildcard email domains is a spam or security threat to AT+T/Yahoo. I can see how this makes complete sense for "free" Yahoo! accounts where anybody can create an account, abuse it, and leave it. However, AT+T/Yahoo's service is directly tied to monetary payments and a billing system that can physically locate the person responsible for a particular email account.
If they're worried on the technical side that someone may decide that they want to send as *@gmail.com, I can understand where that trust issue comes from. Therefore, I propose doing something similar to what Google Apps requires. Require that the customer provide a DNS record that AT+T Yahoo generates, and can thus verify by a DNS lookup.
Google does domain verification by requiring the customer to create a new DNS CNAME record, such as:
googlefffffafbfcfdfefg.mydomain.com. CNAME google.com.
By having the customer modify their DNS domain information, this provides sufficient proof that the requester owns that particular domain and has the capability to edit the DNS records for that domain.
I understand that adding a DNS verification method to validate wildcarded email domains for email verification could require significant work on AT+T/Yahoo's side of the world and that it probably can't be done overnight. But, it's a solution to a problem that they're otherwise ignoring that could result in an exodus of a certain kind of AT+T/Yahoo customer.
Another alternative that AT+T could provide to solve my problem is single static IP addresses. I'd be happy to pay $5/month (maybe $10/month) to get a single static IP address that is NOT listed in any RBL (realtime black list). As I understand it, single static IPs can be done with changes to PPPoE Authentication on the customer side (@static.sbcglobal.net?) and configuration on the Redback(s). I'm sure there are several blocks of addresses out there that AT+T hasn't registered with RBLs as dynamic IP addresses. |
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Ozzie4
join:2006-10-02
Palatine, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to nwrickert
Re: Where did my spam go?
Just another person chiming in, but mostly in thanks. I visited this forum after not being here in a week or so and read the post. Not thinking much of it, I realized I had gotten a lot less spam. Looking in the spam folder though I found all sorts of stuff blocked that shouldn't have been - job offers from companies I've gotten mail from for years, legitimate business I do work with and for including some requests for work (!), and even a note from my mom that was bounced for some reason (apparently AOL is unsafe now?).
The new spam filter is a bit too agressive. If I hadn't read this, I'd have lost actual money from those job offers I saved last night. |
|
David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs:
·DIRECTV
·magicjack.com
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to justmb
Re: Email domains w/Disposable or Wildcard Addresses now a PITA
I turned your request over to a few friends and from what I got back it only accepts individual addresses at this time not domains. Basically from what I got Yahoo! is not budging on the issue. Apparently it was covered prior to you guys thinking it. |
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justmb
join:2005-08-19
Naperville, IL | reply to justbits
I vote for this too!
I need disposable address support! |
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NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to justbits
said by justbits :Therefore, I propose that on the "Step 2: Enter Email Address" page, "Name:" be allowed to be "postmaster@mydomain.com" and "Email:" be allowed to be "*@mydomain.com" so that postmaster@mydomain.com is responsible for all email originated as *@mydomain.com for my AT+T Yahoo email credentials. The "verification" email would be sent to postmaster@mydomain.com. If AT+T Yahoo would require me to implement DomainKeys or DKIM, I'd be glad to enter that information as a part of the configuration process for getting wildcard domains approved. I will second this proposal.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
|
justbits
More fiber than ATT can handle
Premium
join:2003-01-08
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
2 edits | reply to David
I'd like to point out that the error 553 document and »help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/o···-07.html URL describe a procedure that only works with the "Classic Mail" interface. It also fails to work with email domains that provide disposable/wildcard addresses.
I run my own email server. I have my own version of Disposable Email Addresses that works similar to how wildcard email domains work. The "error 553" change now requires that I "Verify" every single unique email address that I expect to originate email from by going though a configuration page on the AT+T Yahoo Email configuration web site. That is going to be nearly impossible to automate with my email domain(s) that provide wildcard and/or disposable email addresses.
What I'd like to propose is that domains can be added and validated such that *@mydomain.com is acceptable not just oneaddress@mydomain.com. (Where "*" represents that any email address user is valid.)
Therefore, I propose that on the "Step 2: Enter Email Address" page, "Name:" be allowed to be "postmaster@mydomain.com" and "Email:" be allowed to be "*@mydomain.com" so that postmaster@mydomain.com is responsible for all email originated as *@mydomain.com for my AT+T Yahoo email credentials. The "verification" email would be sent to postmaster@mydomain.com. If AT+T Yahoo would require me to implement DomainKeys or DKIM, I'd be glad to enter that information as a part of the configuration process for getting wildcard domains approved.
Can you help get this change to allow wildcard/disposable email domains? Whose cage should I start rattling? |
|
David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs:
·DIRECTV
·magicjack.com
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to Rosie
Re: AT&T and Yahoo servers
For those that are needing it, here is the err553 document and details. |
|
Rosie
@pacbell.net | reply to NormanS
Wow, NormanS, thank you so much for the very detailed answer, with screen shots and all. I skimmed it for now and will study it later when I have the time. Very enlightening, thank you. |
|
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to Rosie
Re: List of domain names
Email messages in the Pegasus Mail client. | 
Email address in the Yahoo! Mail Options. |
said by Rosie :
Thank you NormanS for the clarification on the AT&T domain names. I'm unclear about the "handed off" thing. Does that mean that the spam filters are applied at the AT&T MX server first such that some emails may be deleted or bounced back before they can get "handed off" to the Yahoo servers?
Based on some tests I did a while ago, the AT&T MX servers do some basic filtering by DNSBL, and similar criteria. Email will either be accepted, or rejected a this point. Rejected email results in a "bounce" generated by the sending relay client (if that relay client is a spamming 'bot, no "bounce" is generated). Accepted email is forwarded to Yahoo! Mail Delivery Agents for placement in the user's mailbox.
Are the emails that get through being filtered again at Yahoo?
Yes. The Yahoo! MDAs provide additional filtering based on the criteria established for SpamGuard. Nearly as I can tell, no "bounces" are generated at this point; rather, email is either routed to the Inbox, or the Bulk folder. This is actually a "Good Thing®" because a "bounce" generated at this point could only go to the Return_Path email address; in spam this is forged, or fake, about 99% of the time. This would result in "backscatter": Sending "bounces" to uninvolved parties.
Just an example of what you should see in this process:
The "Received" line at the bottom of the list is reporting my client connection (Windows Live Mail) to a Windows Live Mail account.
The "Received" line in the middle is the ATTIS MX server for the 'pacbell.net' domain accepting the email from the 'live.com' SMTP relay agent. This is where the initial filtering will take place; and the "accept/reject" decision would be made.
The "Received" line at the top is the Yahoo! MDA for this 'pacbell.net' account. This is where the filtering decision for "Inbox/Bulk" will take place.
By comparison, here is a straight Yahoo! email address. These headers from a 'yahoo.com' email address added to that 'pacbell.net' account as an "Extra" email address through the Mail Options:
This was picked up by the same account. You will see that this time the email goes straight to the Yahoo! server, bypassing the ATTIS server.
The screen shots show both email messages in the client folder, and the Yahoo! Mail Options screen where the extra accounts are set up.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
|
dxiv
join:2005-04-12
Wheaton, IL
| reply to David
Re: Where did my spam go?
said by David :send that [bounced message with full headers] to the removeme@sbc.sbcglobal.net address. They will need that info. I got the reply from "AT&T Internet Services Security Center" to "please try resending your message" (a bit off the mark, since it wasn't my message which was being bounced to begin with). Anyway, something did change for the better, and the previously bounced emails now get through to my inbox (using the same server on the sending side which was "blocked" before). Thank you, and I hope this case is closed for good. |
|
nwrickert
sand groper
Premium,MVM
join:2004-09-04
Geneva, IL
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to Rosie
Re: List of domain names
Does that mean that the spam filters are applied at the AT&T MX server first such that some emails may be deleted or bounced back before they can get "handed off" to the Yahoo servers? That is my understanding of what is happening, based on the evidence thus far. Unfortunately AT&T has not given official information about this.
Are the emails that get through being filtered again at Yahoo? Yes, but the Yahoo filtering mainly is for deciding what goes into your bulk folder.
And yes, things have changed a lot since the 80s.
--
AT&T dsl; Westell 327w modem/router; SuSE 10.1; firefox 2.0.0.13 |
|
Rosie
@pacbell.net
| reply to NormanS
Thank you NormanS for the clarification on the AT&T domain names. I'm unclear about the "handed off" thing. Does that mean that the spam filters are applied at the AT&T MX server first such that some emails may be deleted or bounced back before they can get "handed off" to the Yahoo servers? Are the emails that get through being filtered again at Yahoo? I don't understand the terminology well enough to follow the explanations. I'll have to do some reading online in order to understand the messages in this thread. I was a comp. sci. major in college in the '80's -- 3 classes shy of a B.S. when I had to drop out for health reasons -- but I never actually worked in the field. The Internet was not in widespread use at that time, that I can recall. |
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