ISP_Worker
@ody.ca
| Nexxia throttling? I work for an ISP, and I deal with Sympatico/Bell everyday, dealing with tickets and troubles...
Just got off the phone, started with a Nexxia rep telling me that bandwidth is being shapped/slowed down for Sympatico AND DSL Resellers in regards to P2P traffic... I asked for confirmation, she placed me on hold, and came back saying that yes, this is true. Then I asked for a manager... she said she couldn't transfer me, but gave me a name and number to call, talked to that person, and she wouldn't come right out to say yes this is all true, but is not denying it, and tried to explain the impact P2P traffic has on all customers, whether they are on resellers or not...
I can't confirm that any of this is true... 1 person said it is, the 2nd higher up didn't denie it and tried hard to explain why something like this would be done if it were...
I looked around a few forums here to see if anything close to this had been reported... but I see nothing... | |
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 pstewart
Premium,VIP
join:2005-10-12
Peterborough, ON
| Re: Nexxia throttling? They definately have the ability I believe... they have been doing a lot of software upgrades on the backend that lead me to believe it's possible.
Having said that, several Bell reps to ISP's are denying it so hard to prove it out at this point...
--
Nexicom High Speed Internet - »www.nexicom.net/ | |
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HeadSpinning
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
| I have not seem an actual case of Bell using traffic shaping on a wholesale DSL connection, but I have heard rumours that they are going to implement it, or have already started to do so in some cases.
This is contradictory to what my Bell account team has been telling me - specifically, that Bell is NOT using shaping on wholesale connections.
Bell's congestion issues are not in their backbone connections - they're in the DSL aggregation network. Traffic shaping Sympatico only simply chases customers to wholesale DSL providers, and doesn't solve the problem.
It wouldn't surprise me if they did in fact start to traffic shape wholesale DSL connections. | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| Re: Nexxia throttling? As I understand it, they are shaping Sympatico customers and anyone who uses a 3rd party DSL LOGIN account but with a Sympatico connection. In other words, you have Sympatico, but you've used your monthly allowance of 60GB, so you get a $10 login account from a 3rd party which gives you unlimited bandwidth. Sympatico/Nexxia WILL throttle that LOGIN connection.
If you have a DSL connection with the 3rd party then you aren't throttled. | |
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Kardinal
Canadair CT-114 Tutor
Premium
join:2001-02-04
N of 49th
clubs:
| Re: Nexxia throttling? said by sbrook  :As I understand it, they are shaping Sympatico customers and anyone who uses a 3rd party DSL LOGIN account but with a Sympatico connection. In other words, you have Sympatico, but you've used your monthly allowance of 60GB, so you get a $10 login account from a 3rd party which gives you unlimited bandwidth. Sympatico/Nexxia WILL throttle that LOGIN connection. If you have a DSL connection with the 3rd party then you aren't throttled. This would imply the network can see at who the primary account belongs to and would throttle the line no matter what login was used (be it Sympatico or another provider) -- basically, it throttles according to which physical line is being used, not what login is being used. I just can't see that as making sense as traffic shaping would be layer 5 or 6, not layer 1.
--
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars -- Peart/Lee/Lifeson
Join Team Helix
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| | | BozoTheCl0wn
join:2005-04-01
H0H0H0
2 edits | Re: Nexxia throttling? said by Kardinal This would imply the network can see at who the primary account belongs to and would throttle the line no matter what login was used (be it Sympatico or another provider) -- basically, it throttles according to which physical line is being used, not what login is being used. I just can't see that as making sense as traffic shaping would be layer 5 or 6, not layer 1.
»arstechnica.com/articles/culture···lity.ars | |
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ISP_Worker
@ody.ca | Listening on 1 side to a conversation between a Bell manager and the owner of the company here, and it sure sounds like Bell IS messing with reseller traffic... | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| Re: Nexxia throttling? I've now heard this rumour from another source. Still don't know how valid it all is, but if it IS valid, my reaction is what RIGHT does Bell have to throttle a 3rd party ISP's customers' traffic?
This really should go to the CRTC, never mind the CCTS. This stinks of trying to reduce competition. | |
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andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario | Re: Nexxia throttling? I would think this is illegal. | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0 | Re: Nexxia throttling? Without knowing the details of the 3rd party contract, my gut reaction is that you're right. BUT ... it certainly reeks of anticompetitive behaviour! | |
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| pstewart
Premium,VIP
join:2005-10-12
Peterborough, ON
| Re: Nexxia throttling? said by OttawaGal :
It would be interesting to hear from Acanac, Velcom, Teksavvy and Electonic Box about this.
Do you only want to hear from these particular ISP's on this? While I do believe that Bell has capabilities in place (which in my opinion is reasonable to HAVE the capabilities for network protection measures etc.) I firmly don't believe they are actually throttling connections.
I think sbrook "hit the nail on the head" of how it *could* be effecting 3rd party logins from users who have Sympatico as their primary account. We know for sure that Sympatico is getting throttled.
I can also tell you without a doubt that Nexicom customers who are on Bell's wholesale network specifically are NOT throttled AT ALL. We do NOT do throttling, capping or any of that in our network period. Now, I'd be silly to say that some day SOME of this couldn't happen (capping and/or other stuff) but there is definately 100% no plans for any of that today.... all ISP's are faced with massive increases in traffic in the past year - and it's how you deal with that traffic is the key I think personally....
Hope this helps..... | |
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bah 2u
@videotron.ca
| Re: Nexxia throttling? said by JayMan :No were not experiencing throttling YOU are not maybe, but a few others definitely seem to be. All apparently throttled to the same rate too. That's a LOT of coincidence for you to proclaim there is no throttle. | |
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| | | accusync
join:2004-07-16
Rigaud, QC
| Re: Nexxia throttling? said by bah 2u :said by JayMan :No were not experiencing throttling YOU are not maybe, but a few others definitely seem to be. All apparently throttled to the same rate too. That's a LOT of coincidence for you to proclaim there is no throttle. What throttling.... purring along at 621.7 KBps here. | |
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Sears
join:2008-02-17
2 edits | said by bah 2u :said by JayMan :No were not experiencing throttling YOU are not maybe, but a few others definitely seem to be. All apparently throttled to the same rate too. That's a LOT of coincidence for you to proclaim there is no throttle. I understand you are frustrated because of the issues you are facing, but you don't know for a fact you are being throttled so it's a bit presumptuous on your part to declare it as fact. | |
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Angelo_
The Network Guy
Premium
join:2002-06-18
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
| said by bah 2u :said by JayMan :No were not experiencing throttling YOU are not maybe, but a few others definitely seem to be. All apparently throttled to the same rate too. That's a LOT of coincidence for you to proclaim there is no throttle. Jayman is correct we aren't throttled, im getting 300kb on my torrents  for my line thats amazing!
perhaps some users changed something major who knows what they did... or installed... | |
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will see
@videotron.ca
| Re: Nexxia throttling? i guess these users will know for sure if it happens again at "peak hours" today.
If i'm not mistaken bell removes the throttle at around 2-am. They start it around 4-pm. Don't know if they throttle weekends... maybe a sympatico user can tell us the times and days the throttle happens.
But from what I have read around 4ish-pm p2p will drop to 60kB/s for one hour, then drop to 30kB/s till 2-am.
First time i see so many "savvy" users complain at one time. Could have also been a glitch someone in their area... who knows. Call teksavvy and ask maybe, or use their direct forum? | |
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OttawaGal
@anonymouse.org
| Re: Nexxia throttling? If bell is saying that they are throttling certain area's down to below 30kB/s because they can't cope with the traffic that is sold to you and which is resold to the user. Then a complaint for a cost reduction needs to be put in with Bell since they are admitting they can't provide the service that teksavvy is paying them for, and in turn that cost reduction should also be passed on to the users who are paying for below 30kB/s internet. Don't know if thats possible, or if i made sense, or how they work.
But what I'm saying is, why should Harry in Montreal pay 40$ for 5-meg internet and Dick in Toronto pay 40$ for the same service at dial up speed? Why should Teksavvy have to pay full rate as well when bell admitted they can't supply you?
Will this throttle soon spread out to other area's or is there only a predefined area at the moment? What area's?
Is it perm? Estimated length of time?
Are all the other wholesellers affected as well or only Teksavvy?
Should users believe bells side of it, or should they believe this is another strong-arm tactic by bell similar to when they tried to strong-arm you into removing the login access?
Many questions come to mind...
Good luck with your meeting next week! | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| Re: Nexxia throttling? The "leak" mill is definitely busy. As I understand it in one rumour, Bell is throttling 3rd parties in areas where they have the equipment to do so, and intend to extend that to all areas.
I don't see what legal right they have to do this and I hope somebody will raise this to the Department of Industry Anti-Competition bureau. | |
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for sure
@videotron.ca
| Re: Nexxia throttling? said by sbrook :The "leak" mill is definitely busy. As I understand it in one rumour, Bell is throttling 3rd parties in areas where they have the equipment to do so, and intend to extend that to all areas. I don't see what legal right they have to do this and I hope somebody will raise this to the Department of Industry Anti-Competition bureau. FOR SURE!
If this is true, I see price fixing, competition fixing, collusion, cartels, raketeering and so forth.
I would be banging on the industry ministers and the CRTC's door fast. | |
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OttawaGal
@anonymouse.org
| Now, with the news that Rogers is applying the same 60-gig throttled limits as Sympatico, and with dissemination of a leaked Sympatico document announcing further changes to its bandwidth policies, she’s wondering if there’s more to the situation than meets the eye, with the phrase ‘price fixing’ front and center.
Full rumor story at:
»www.p2pnet.net/story/15361
Let the rumours fly.
This should also probably be front page news on dslr.
Should follow this up with as many wholesalers as possible to get their side of whats happening. hmmmmm
Anyone game for an interview? | |
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
·Bell Sympatico
| said by ISP_Worker :
I work for an ISP, and I deal with Sympatico/Bell everyday, dealing with tickets and troubles...
Just got off the phone, started with a Nexxia rep telling me that bandwidth is being shapped/slowed down for Sympatico AND DSL Resellers in regards to P2P traffic... I asked for confirmation, she placed me on hold, and came back saying that yes, this is true. Then I asked for a manager... she said she couldn't transfer me, but gave me a name and number to call, talked to that person, and she wouldn't come right out to say yes this is all true, but is not denying it, and tried to explain the impact P2P traffic has on all customers, whether they are on resellers or not...
I can't confirm that any of this is true... 1 person said it is, the 2nd higher up didn't denie it and tried hard to explain why something like this would be done if it were...
I looked around a few forums here to see if anything close to this had been reported... but I see nothing...
I have also heard this is true, from back channel conversation.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care. | |
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Acanac Inc
Premium
join:2007-03-05
Mississauga, ON
1 edit | Re: Nexxia throttling? Although we have not yet had any complaints on our end about throttling, Acanac has noticed profiles being lowered when they could support higher speeds. This is happening more and more. This in it's self is a type of throttling.
Best Regards,
Paul
www.acanac.ca | |
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itsa shame
@videotron.ca
| Re: Nexxia throttling? said by Acanac Inc :Acanac has noticed profiles being lowered when they could support higher speeds. Something needs to be done and this is probably one of the times where all you wholesellers need to pool your resources and fight back before you really get stepped on more. | |
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| | dcorreia
join:2003-08-08
Mississauga, ON
| This has happen to me a few times, 5meg fast path profiles down to 3meg and sometimes even interleave.
said by Acanac Inc :Although we have not yet had any complaints on our end about throttling, Acanac has noticed profiles being lowered when they could support higher speeds. This is happening more and more. This in it's self is a type of throttling. Best Regards, Paul www.acanac.ca | |
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jpabboud
join:2005-12-12
Montreal, QC |
I think ElectronicBox's cable service here in Quebec looks more and more tempting... I hope Videotron is not planning on following Nexxia in their foot steps. | |
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xmz
join:2005-06-09
Canada
·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | For what it's worth, I'm with Distributel and I am noticing a steady 30kb/s limit on any torrent that I try. As far as I know Distributel is a Bell reseller, not unlike TekSavvy. This is pretty recent as I remember that as soon as last week I was getting full speeds. I am located in KW.
Just to add on: If I attempt to grab something via FTP while I have a torrent client open, speeds are at a dismal 30kb/s as well. This is bullshit.  | |
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See 12 replies to this post |
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Last Parade
One of the Brightest Stars
join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON | I'm downloading torrents at 508.1 KB/sec and uploading at my forced cap, 40 KB/sec. | |
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Bellundo
@teksavvy.com | Re: Nexxia throttling? Maybe hamilton isn't considered a major city and you better hope that never changes. | |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| Question to the various ISP people who participate here:
Is there any chance that ISPs will get together ASAP and pressure the CRTC to force Bell to stop implementing Sympatico policies on the wholesale data transfers ?
If the ISPs won't do it, how many customers would it take to get the ear of the CRTC to take action ?
In such a case, can we also tell the CRTC the reason they are not seeing ISP complaints is that ISPs are scared of Bell and do not wish to jeoperdise their relationshp with Bell by complaining to the CRTC ? | |
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: Nexxia throttling? said by jfmezei :If the ISPs won't do it, how many customers would it take to get the ear of the CRTC to take action ? In such a case, can we also tell the CRTC the reason they are not seeing ISP complaints is that ISPs are scared of Bell and do not wish to jeoperdise their relationshp with Bell by complaining to the CRTC ? The CRTC will not touch this. Broadband is not regulated by the CRTC.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care. | |
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umm hmmm
@videotron.ca
| Re: Nexxia throttling? said by DKS :The CRTC will not touch this. Broadband is not regulated by the CRTC. It is from the wholesalers side. | |
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andrewhaji
Premium
join:2002-03-02
North York, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| I posted this in the TekSavvy thread as well...
At least Bell is consistent. Right at 2 AM my speeds went back to normal, but during the whole afternoon I was bouncing between 30 KB/s and about 100 KB/s. This has to stop. | |
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CanerisErik
Caneris
Premium,VIP
join:2007-10-03
Toronto, ON
| According to one poster on the TekSavvy thread, the throttling is done selectively by realm...
How about all the wholesalers come together and form a new organization providing ISP-independent co-location of aggregation equipment in Bell COs? No need for Bell SLAMs/BASs, just pay for the unbundled loop and have shared DSLAMs, etc. provided by wholesalers for wholesalers. Primus is doing it all on their own for themselves.
One issue would be all the various business models might not be compatible with this... | |
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See 7 replies to this post |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Hi,
Isn't it possible that cross-talk taking place in the wiring
which spreads over our streets reached a saturation point,
that this saturation is the consequence of having so many
customers on 5+ Kbps profiles doing transfers all day long? | |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| PPPoE service is provided under the name "Gateway Access Service" otherwise known as "GAS".
It is tariff approved by the CRTC, numbered 5410
(the non PPPoE (HSA) is 5420).
Bell Canada has a section on its web site which does list all applicable tariffs.
www.bell.ca/tariffs (search for 5410 or Gateway Access Service)
5410 seems to be available at:
»www.bce.ca/en/aboutbce/regulator···20%20%20
This is a .PDF document. Not sure if this is the most current, but this version has seen updates since 5410 was first introduced (for instance addition of dry loop support, and upping of basic speed to 5mbps)
##
2. General | 2. Généralités |
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(a) Gateway Access Service (GAS) is a broadband
access service based on Asymmetric Digital Subscriber
Line (ADSL) technology. This service will enable a
service provider to establish a high speed data access
path between its end-user's premises and a Company
serving wire centre. End-user login and password
authentication are established via a “network selection
gateway” which can enable access to multiple destination
networks.
##
I am no lawyer, but the document mentions only PPPoE (PPP over ethernet) frame transport between end user and Bell,s customer (aka: ISP). Nowewhere is it mentioned that inside the PPPoE frame, it is expected to be TCPIP packet. In fact, it mentions internet access, LAN extensions
##
(e) GAS supports Point to Point Protocol over Ethernet
(PPPoE) across the Company's backbone network.
##
This implies that Bell is to carry PPPoE frames between end use and ISP. Again, no mention of TCPIP.
(PPPoE could be used to transport any network such as DECNET, Appletalk, SNA etc, PPP itself is not tied specifically to TCPIP although TCPIp is the most widely used protocol over PPP or PPPoE lines).
Nowhere is it mentioned that Bell reserves the right to "manage" traffic. In fact, in a separate filing from MTS requiring Bell to provide a mean time to repair of 4 hours, Bell argues that GAS is an unmanaged service (Bell offers managed network services with quick repair garantees).
##
(e) GAS supports Point to Point Protocol over Ethernet
(PPPoE) across the Company's backbone network.
##
It is thus Bell's responsability to ensure its backbone network can handle the load to provide the 5mbps down and 800kbps up rates that are stipulated in the tariff. | |
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mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON | So, if this turns out to be intentional, who's going to be the first to file a complaint with the CRTC? | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0 | Re: Nexxia throttling? Better to file with the Industry Minister. I'll lay odds that the CRTC will pass it off if left to their own resouces. | |
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mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON | Re: Nexxia throttling? Sad but probably true, when they are supposed to be handing it themselves. Always makes me wonder why we still have them around. | |
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anti_competitive
@videotron.ca | not only the industry minister but with the competition bureau. This is (could be) an attempt to control and stifle the competition. | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0 | Re: Nexxia throttling? The competition bureau is under the dept of industry. | |
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CanerisErik
Caneris
Premium,VIP
join:2007-10-03
Toronto, ON | Another issue is remotes... | |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC | Re: Nexxia throttling? You can never cover every CO anyhow, so the lack of remotes doesn't matter so much. The downtown core COs of the major cities cover a fair number of customers... | |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC | Re: Nexxia throttling? There is no ideal solution. If they can cover the major cities, they can help the most people for the least amount of cash, compared to spending all the money on lawyers or building out equipment in small towns. | |
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