Search:  

 
 
   All ForumsHot TopicsGallery






how-to block ads


 
Forums » US Cable Support » Comcast » Comcast HSI » Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
Share Topic:
RSS topic:
toggle:
flat / full
normal / watch
Posting:
[Spam] Comcast reporting spam from my IP »
« [CDV] Outgoing Static on calls  

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype


4 edits

News: Comcast to end P2P interference

Several breaking news stories reveal that Comcast and BitTorrent Inc. have struck an agreement to stop the RST interference.

The details are still cloudy...

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20080327_Comcast_agreement_in_dispute_with_BitTorrent.html
Excerpted Key Points:

Comcast says it will halt its practice of interfering only with BitTorrent file-sharing programs when the Internet congests and slows speeds for everyone.

The Philadelphia cable company also will boost broadband capacity to make it easier to transmit online video and other rich media, it says.

BitTorrent Inc., based in San Francisco, will make its free software more efficient and will make sure software developers learn of those efficiencies. (I presume this means that some proprietary "BitTorrent DNA" information will be openly shared. --Robb)

Tony Werner, executive vice president and chief technology officer at Comcast Cable, said yesterday that the agreement had "an awful lot of promise" and that Comcast would move quickly to implement it.

The cable giant would continue to manage traffic on the Internet, as other network operators do, but without singling out BitTorrent, according to the agreement.

"We are working hard on a different approach that is protocol-agnostic during peak periods," Werner said.
The Wall Street Journal seemed to have a relatively different set of the details ...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120658178504567453.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Excerpted Key Points:

Rather than slow traffic by certain types of applications -- such as file-sharing software or companies like BitTorrent -- Comcast will slow traffic for those users who consume the most bandwidth, said Comcast's Mr. Warner. Comcast hopes to be able to switch to a new policy based on this model as soon as the end of the year, he added.

BitTorrent will also work to optimize its software to run more effectively over Comcast's network, said Mr. Navin. BitTorrent plans to publish its findings in technology forums so that other application developers looking to work with Comcast can benefit.
BitTorrent's CEO spelled it out this way:
http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/419-comcast-and-bittorrent-do-a-non-deal-deal-to-work-together/
Excerpted Key Points:

Ashwin Navin, president of BitTorrent, provided additional information:

1. Network management will be protocol agnostic & disclosed to consumers… and there will be no more connection resets.
2. Network architecture will be optimized for media delivery
a. Comcast is increasing capacity overall and particularly for upstream traffic (good for p2p)
b. Bittorrent is developing new client features to optimize for ISP networks (eg, cache discovery protocol)
c. Comcast/Bittorrent will jointly investigate a new network architecture for the benefit of our users (servers in the comcast network which will accelerate file transfer rather than impede it)
3. Openness: We will publish our findings and optimizations in open forums for the benefit of other ISPs and application developers… including our open source Bittorrent implementation.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.

koitsu
Premium
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

said by funchords See Profile :

Comcast says it will halt its practice of interfering only with BitTorrent file-sharing programs when the Internet congests and slows speeds for everyone.
Am I the only one who read this 4 or 5 times before saying "Uh, WHAT?"
--
Making life hard for others since 1977.
I speak for myself and not my employer/affiliates of my employer.

MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX
clubs:
I have a feeling they will try something else. I don't think this will be the end.
--
Team Discovery-Join the fight

Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Boston, MA

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

said by MysticGogeta See Profile :

I have a feeling they will try something else. I don't think this will be the end.
Of course not, the article says quite explicitly that all traffic will be shaped, not just BitTorrent. I'm not exactly sure where the victory is here.
--
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

Well, the victory is that they claim the new traffic management will be "protocol agnostic", but yeah, the proof will be in the pudding.

»www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stori···5&EDATE=
»Comcast Claims They'll Stop BitTorrent Throttling

I'm not sure anybody reasonably expects any cable operator to not engage in some form of traffic shaping. But getting away from packet forgery is at least a step in the right direction, assuming we're not talking about some arrangement where only official BitTorrent Corp. BitTorrent traffic is being treated fairly, which if that were the case the PR folk wouldn't have used the term "protocol agnostic" in the press release....

As always, we'll see.

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

which if that were the case the PR folk wouldn't have used the term "protocol agnostic" in the press release
Are you new, here?

Wow, Karl, you sure are generous in the morning!

ComcasticTales.pdf 64057 bytes
History of Comcast's Statements regarding P2P interference


--Robb
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

Well, my point is that with the threat of regulation looming, a second hearing coming, the FCC in the midst of an investigation, and the entire tech news media watching every word they say, it would be suicide to boldly lie via press release.

I've been buried in telecom PR for the better part of this decade. PR guys talked to one on one generally fib and flub. Press releases generally try to stay straight as lawyers and professional writers have had time to cook each word. If they were going to come back and throttle only "non-legit" BT traffic, the wording would be much more vague.

I imagine the new system likely won't target specific protocols...who knows what kind of pattern consumption they will target, and we won't probably know until the end of this year.

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype


1 edit

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

I know. Sorry to have a little fun at your expense, but I did want to take that opportunity to remind people that what Comcast says is often interpreted differently by its customers.

In rental cars, you have "Hertz" and you have "Not exactly." In CATV Internet, Comcast is the "Not Exactly" company.

Well, my point is that with the threat of regulation looming, a second hearing coming, the FCC in the midst of an investigation, and the entire tech news media watching every word they say, it would be suicide to boldly lie via press release.
Or to pay people to stuff a meeting, again.

Stanford is going to be a circus. Everyone in the gallery will be suspicious of everyone else in the gallery. (I, myself, will be wearing an assortment of highlighters.)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.
SuperWISP

join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY

This article implies that Comcast is going to go to shaping (e.g throtting back longer lasting connections), limiting of the number of simultaneously open connections, or both. This is not an uncommon method of traffic management. However, the problem with it -- from an ISP's standpoint -- is that it does not detect or stop the taking of bandwidth by third parties (e.g. Vuze). Furthermore, it means that any user who attempts to do P2P will have to be throttled back quite a long ways to allow the provider to even break even on the connection. (At $30 per month per subscriber, we would be lucky to break even if we let the user run even at 200 Kbps continuously, because that 200 Kbps would soak up $20 per month in bandwidth costs alone -- and we also have tech support, billing, and other functions to provide that would eat up the other $10.) In short, simple arithmetic dictates that both ISPs and users are likely to be unhappy with this approach, whereas before only would-be bandwidth hogs and third party companies trying to take bandwidth from ISPs were unhappy. Not an improvement, in my personal opinion. The best thing to be doing is to prevent P2P from appropriating ISPs' bandwidth without compensation.

--Brett Glass
kelso

join:2007-04-06
Ashburn, VA


1 edit

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

said by SuperWISP See Profile :

The best thing to be doing is to prevent P2P from appropriating ISPs' bandwidth without compensation.

--Brett Glass
I believe an ISP targeting p2p is not a good solution.
There must be a better solution.
We need the real "Brett Glass to the rescue" "http://www.brettglass.com".

Let just let customers use the bandwidth they paid for in what ever way they want (p2p, mail, news, or ssh tunnel).

edited...
SuperWISP

join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY


3 edits

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

said by kelso See Profile :

Let just let customers use the bandwidth they paid for in what ever way they want (p2p, mail, news, or ssh tunnel).
This is not appropriate in the case of P2P, because they didn't pay for that bandwidth. Our terms of service for residential customers prohibit P2P and the operation of servers, and so the customer did not pay for bandwidth to use for those purposes.

We prohibit servers -- and hence P2P -- because P2P uses so much bandwidth that we'd lose money on every customer unless we doubled or tripled our rates. Customers want responsive, economical Internet, and that just isn't possible in the presence of P2P.

comcastuser565

@comcast.net

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

said by SuperWISP See Profile :

This is not appropriate in the case of P2P, because they didn't pay for that bandwidth. Our terms of service for residential customers prohibit P2P and the operation of servers, and so the customer did not pay for bandwidth to use for those purposes.
We prohibit servers -- and hence P2P -- because P2P uses so much bandwidth that we'd lose money on every customer unless we doubled or tripled our rates. Customers want responsive, economical Internet, and that just isn't possible in the presence of P2P.
sorry to say, but why does comcast used to day 'unlimited' (it has been removed now) but it had a soft cap..
the cap still exists however it is not in ANY print (fine or bold). So how does a customer know what he/she paid for.
also your 'server' argument does not hold.. there are lot of softwares which run on computers which could classify as 'server'.. (yahoo messanger is one of them). So do you mean to say that yahoo messanger is not allowed ?
SuperWISP

join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

YIM isn't a server. It doesn't accept incoming connections from all and sundry. BitTorrent does.

As for the use of the word "unlimited" -- it never meant unlimited bandwidth or an unlimited number of bits. It was used in the early days, when most folks were on dialup, to indicate unlimited "connect time" -- that is, 24/7 connectivity. It's not used anymore because people now understand this -- not because management practices have changed.

As for bandwidth limits: the cable and telephone companies are locked in an advertising arms race in which they claim "up to" the maximum theoretical speed of your hardware, and then put a disclaimer in the ad (it's always there) which says that you're not guaranteed any speed at all. Neither one dares back down from this, because consumers always look for one number on which to peg their choice (just as they base their choice of computer on "megahertz" or "gigahertz" even though clock speed doesn't always reflect computing power).

Our ISP quotes guaranteed minimum throughput to the backbone (for activities we don't prohibit), and the users can verify that they're getting it. But believe it or not, this greater disclosure hurts us, because the quoted number is smaller. Again, it's not what the number means; it's just whether it's bigger.

koitsu
Premium
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

said by SuperWISP See Profile :

YIM isn't a server. It doesn't accept incoming connections from all and sundry. BitTorrent does.
Re: Yahoo: Bzzzzt, wrong. You should take the time to examine commonly-used programs; you will find many of them DO accept incoming connections "from all and sundry". Here's a very short list I made back in October (in this thread nonetheless!):

»Re: Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections

If you explicitly state you block P2P applications in your TOS, then your customers indeed do not have the right to complain about said blocking. However, it would do you well to consider mentioning specific network protocols in your TOS, rather than just saying "P2P".

You can't say "any peer-to-peer applications which involve the transfer of files", because IM clients, IRC, and even Remote Desktop/Terminal Services fall under that category. So, you would be best stating explicitly what protocols you block -- and if you make an update to the TOS (to add a new blocked protocol), inform your users and provide them a changelog of the difference so they can read and understand what you've changed.
--
Making life hard for others since 1977.
I speak for myself and not my employer/affiliates of my employer.

jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

said by SuperWISP See Profile :

As for the use of the word "unlimited" -- it never meant unlimited bandwidth or an unlimited number of bits. It was used in the early days, when most folks were on dialup, to indicate unlimited "connect time" -- that is, 24/7 connectivity. It's not used anymore because people now understand this -- not because management practices have changed.
Bullshit.

Maybe that's what it meant in the context of dialup, and I suppose they could have had errors in their early marketing, but I don't think so. I have advertising fliers that specifically say (for dsl and cable) - unlimited and always on, from ~1997 onwards. Your interpretation sounds plausible, but it sounds more like after-the-fact rationalization. Unlimited absolutely now means unlimited transfer amount, where the only real limit is your bandwidth cap (see iPhone data contracts). In fact, when buying any cell based internet access for the past 5 years (maybe longer), you could buy an "unlimited" plan where the contract was explicit: you didn't have to pay per byte.

Never say never. The only reason to make your argument now is to try to ease customers into new, much more limited contracts, and that's just not going to happen without a lot of grumbling (as if semantics is going to quell the uprising anyway). With severe enough byte/month restrictions, free dial-up starts making a lot of sense.
--
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
SuperWISP

join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY


2 edits

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

said by jig See Profile :

Maybe that's what it meant in the context of dialup, and I suppose they could have had errors in their early marketing, but I don't think so.
I do. It's completely irrational and impossible for someone to expect to download an infinite number of bytes. What's amazing is how spoiled some P2Pers are. Not only do they want to break the law with impunity and steal all the intellectual property they want; they have the audacity to want to take infinite bandwidth from the ISP and slow down legitimate users as they do so. On the other hand, the lack of consideration inherent in the former sort of suggests that they wouldn't be considerate about the latter.
said by koitsu See Profile :

You should take the time to examine commonly-used programs; you will find many of them DO accept incoming connections "from all and sundry". Here's a very short list I made back in October (in this thread nonetheless!):
There was nothing in your list. I guess that means that you do not believe that any programs act as servers?

Seriously: The YIM client is just that: a client. It connects to Yahoo's server.

koitsu
Premium
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

said by SuperWISP See Profile :

There was nothing in your list. I guess that means that you do not believe that any programs act as servers?

Seriously: The YIM client is just that: a client. It connects to Yahoo's server.
There was nothing in the list? Yeah, I guess all that text is invisible, and funchords gave me a thumbs-up for no particular reason.

"" is right.

tacouch
Wasn't Me

join:2001-12-26
Chandler, AZ

It's completely irrational and impossible for someone to expect to download an infinite number of bytes. What's amazing is how spoiled some P2Pers are. Not only do they want to break the law with impunity and steal all the intellectual property they want; they have the audacity to want to take infinite bandwidth from the ISP and slow down legitimate users as they do so. On the other hand, the lack of consideration inherent in the former sort of suggests that they wouldn't be considerate about the latter.
There was nothing in your list. I guess that means that you do not believe that any programs act as servers?

Seriously: The YIM client is just that: a client. It connects to Yahoo's server.
Oh my god it's people/companies like you that are ruining this country.

There is so much dark fiber in this country it's not even funny. Capacity isn't and was never the problem!!!!

Giving up that big fat Gov incentives tit is.

Providers know that if they actually start using whats out there (many thousands of miles of fiber they got incentives to lay), the Gov is going to take away its incentives tit because theres no reason in hell to give a perfectly healthy industry help by paying for the same service twice.

By the way look up the definition of a server. Roughly 80% or more of todays applications are some form of a server+client and have been for quite a few years.

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

said by tacouch See Profile :

There is so much dark fiber in this country it's not even funny. Capacity isn't and was never the problem!!!!
... and how much of that fiber runs directly to your house?

While it is true there is a massive supply of cheap bandwidth available for backbone carrier connectivity, the capacity limitations on the last mile are very real.
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC

I don't doubt that there is a lot of fiber out there. OTOH, I know that there is no fiber within 3,000 feet of my premises; though both AT&T and Comcast have fiber in the neighborhood.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
mudtoe

join:2005-10-09
Cleveland, OH

Re: News: Comcast to end P2P interference

It seems to me that what this all boils down to is a "disclosure" issue, and the real question is: Is Comcast's advertising at odds with the fine print (i.e. TOS agreement), and with their actions (e.g. spoofing RST commands as coming from other users).

It does seem to be the case. From my point of view one thing that the FCC, perhaps combined with the FTC, could and should do is to require all the ISPs to be completely up front and honest about what you are buying when you sign up.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the whole relationship between telecommunications providers and consumers is based on advertising one thing, and delivering another. Just look at the cell phone business. They tout one price, but when you get your bill there are lines and lines of fees added that can make your bill 30-40% higher than the rate you were quoted. Some of the most complicated software programs in the world are the telecom companies’ billing system applications, which are designed to allow all kinds of “add-on” fees to be put in the bill.

What should happen here, IMHO, is that all these telecommunications providers should be required to state up front what limitations, both bandwidth usage wise, and application wise (e.g. running servers, bit torrent, etc.), are placed on the service. Also, any prices quoted have to be the "out the door" price, not some base price that gets a ton of fees attached later. All of these companies are doing everything possible to prevent the consumer from comparing apples to apples when choosing a provider. Obfuscation, misdirection, and word-smithing nuance are the name of the game today with regard to how these companies communicate with their customers. That’s what the FCC should be addressing.

mudtoe

jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

said by SuperWISP See Profile :

It's completely irrational and impossible for someone to expect to download an infinite number of bytes.
i think you need to read my post more carefully. the part about being limited by the available speed, just like all the cell providers currently contract for.

as far as being considerate, if my isp was a co-op, then maybe. even then, if the advertising is: unlimited! 24/7! downloads! games! streaming media! 10Mbit! (oh, and we don't guarantee our advertised speed, just our Best Efforts(tm). also, upload is 512k)!, then i'm going to use it exactly as advertised.

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype


1 edit
All,

Let me start by saying that no matter what I post, Brett (SuperWISP) will disagree. He considers me a liar.

Brett operates Lariat.net, a Wireless ISP who competes with wireline service in Laramie. More importantly, his business serves people in the surrounding area who normally would have no Internet options outside of dialup.

Someone mentioned a cooperative, above. Interestingly, Lariat.net started as a cooperative. It went private in 2003. What Brett and his group did is nothing short of wonderful Internet history:

Lariat traces itself back to a computer users' group that decided, in the early 1990s, to take into its own hands the problem of good Internet access in a city of only 25 000 residents. After setting up a bank of dial-up modems, Glass and his friends considered the needs of Laramie's small businesses.

At the time, a standard U.S. Internet connection cost $3500 a month, buying a data rate of about 1.5 Mb/s. Lariat found it could buy radios and provide 2-Mb/s connectivity for a one-time fee of $3500 and monthly charges of $600 (nowadays, only $125 for setup and $125 per month). Thus in 1994, when most people were first hearing of the Web and PC modems were just breaking the 28-kb/s barrier, Lariat was offering wireless Internet access at data rates that are still unavailable to many people today.

»www.buffalowireless.net/what_s_n···less.htm Broadband A Go-Go, Steven M. Cherry; IEEE Spectrum archive Volume 40 , Issue 6 (June 2003)
Brett is extremely prejudiced against all P2P-distributed services. This includes file sharing and Skype. It probably doesn't include simple P2P connections like FTP and HTTP. Facts about network impacts and efficiency matter less to Brett than the principle of the thing: Brett feels that distributing processing and bandwidth among users actually steals from their ISPs.

Most of all, Brett is extremely concerned that government Network Neutrality actions might ruin his business. His position is that any limit on what any operator can do risks the years of personal investment as well as the livelihoods of his employees.

My advice: do not try to change his mind, you cannot. He is also on a campaign to prevent any kind of government action. But learn from Brett -- he has "feet on the street" experience and his business has different dynamics than traditional wireline services like Cable/DSL/FIOS.

I'm just a user here, and the above is simply my opinion and interpretation of the situation. I've been reading Brett's messages for months. Hopefully this message helps those meeting Brett for the first time. Brett's entitled to his own opinions, and you are to yours. And while it may look like I'm speaking or advocating for Brett in the words above, remember that he considers me a liar who is intent on destroying his business. I am not.

Robb Topolski

PS: Brett and I are not on good terms, as you can imagine. Rather than inflame debate, I generally just let him have the floor alone. MY SILENCE DOES NOT INDICATE AGREEMENT, DISAGREEMENT, OR LACK OF A DIFFERENT VIEW.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif.

comcastuser676

@comcast.net

said by SuperWISP See Profile :

Our ISP quotes guaranteed minimum throughput to the backbone (for activities we don't prohibit), and the users can verify that they're getting it. But believe it or not, this greater disclosure hurts us, because the quoted number is smaller. Again, it's not what the number means; it's just whether it's bigger.
umm.. so where is the 'quotes guaranteed minimum throughput' for activities which comcast doesn't prohibit ?
also you mean to say - if comcast discloses the lower guaranteed speed, it will hurt their business, so they are free to quote any speed upto any number (Gigabit lan anyone ??) and is rightful in doing so ?? to win customers it is okay to lie ?? wait till Martin at FCC hears it ..
(topic locked)
Forums » US Cable Support » Comcast » Comcast HSI[Spam] Comcast reporting spam from my IP »
« [CDV] Outgoing Static on calls  


Sunday, 29-Nov 12:50:16 Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Hosting by www.nac.net - DSL,Hosting & Co-lo | feedback | contact
over 10 years online! © 1999-2009 dslreports.com.
page compression OFF
Most commented news this week
· [124] Time Warner Cable Fires Broadside At Broadcasters
· [112] New AT&T Ad Campaign Hits Back At Verizon
· [96] Apple Joins AT&T Verizon Snark Fest
· [87] New Bill Takes Aim At Higher Verizon ETFs
· [80] TiVo Sees Record Customer Losses
· [76] Verizon CEO: Hulu Will Be Dead Soon
· [76] Weekend Open Thread
· [69] In-Flight Internet Headed For Bumpy Landing?
· [62] Thanksgiving Open Thread
· [40] EFF Wages War On Fine Print
Most people now reading
· Is Easynews down? [Filesharing Software]
· Are GPS's better today? [General Questions]
· Windows 7 boot manager editing questions [Microsoft Help]
· Surfers beware !!! [TekSavvy]
· Anyone have a problem [Software]
· 3.x Feral Druid - Bear Tanking Guide [World of Warcraft]
· [ PVP] Druid pvp where to start? [World of Warcraft]
· [Snow Leopard] NFS Mounts - no more Directory Utility [All Things Macintosh]
· Shareport problem on DIR-655 [D-Link]
· Grey Cup on the Web? [Canadian Chat]