TobiasFunke
Premium
join:2007-02-27
Toronto, ON
1 edit | reply to Stewy
Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people
said by Stewy  :Help me understand this. On point number 3, who is judging "undesirable" content? Bell, and Bell alone.
On point number 4, if you were to replace all P2P with the exact same amount of HTTP traffic. Would that have the exact same impact on "Bell's core network" as they put it.
In other words is P2P the same to manage as an HTTP packet? Yes and no, but mostly yes. The asymmetric part of ADSL service means that P2P uses much more upstream bandwidth than your average HTTP session. HTTP also tends to be a lot more bursty, in that it's not a continuous transfer (although this assumption is disappearing with things like YouTube).
That said, I don't think the asymmetry is much of an excuse for Bell. What really matters to them is bandwidth and, once you get to their core network, it doesn't matter which direction the data is going, just the overall volume. At least, AFAIK. |
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Pegasys66
join:2008-01-16
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
2 edits | reply to nanook
Yes:If they failed to maintain their network in order to honor theit agreement and advertisement.It ends up being false advertisement.
No:If you are stuck so far from the CO in the first place you may as well have stayed on dial-up...But it has often been reported by users that Sympatico will upsell you on a faster connection while knowing ahead of time your line can't take it.
Yes:Refer to first statement
PS:If the german autobahns were stuck at 30Km/H 10 hours everyday it would cripple or seriously threaten their economy(remember that goods and people still have to travel)
and disrupt other EU countries' economies.
I think that the german people would demand explanations and heads would roll.Remember that europeans have a more vocal and active way of demonstrating their displeasure with their goverments and organizations that abuse their trust.
P.P.S:The buffet analogy would stand only if Bell was creating the different items of food (Internet content) and their was a Hard limit on a specific item or file.Even if the items of food refered to the different protocols the buffet analogy can not stand...Have they run out of VPN?
The buffet analogy only stands if the restaurant has pre-sold the item to hundreds of people and only allows a few at time to get in while everyone else waits in line. |
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nanook
Premium,MVM
join:2007-12-02
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..
1 edit | reply to Pegasys66
said by Pegasys66 :Meaning no limit in speeds or quantity. Suppose the network gets so congested that everyone is getting only 30kB/s. Would that violate "no limit"? How?
Suppose you live so far from a CO that all you can achieve under ideal conditions is 30kB/s. Would that violate "no limit"? How?
Suppose Bell has to throttle traffic to 30kB/s during certain periods (as they are now doing) in order to distribute their GAS bandwidth equitably (as they now claim.) Would that violate "no limit"? How?
P.S. Suppose you drive on a German autobahn that has no speed limit when you encounter heavy traffic and everyone has to slow down to 30km/hr. Has the German government lied to you? How?
[Again, do not shoot me. Just playing "devil's advocate."]
P.P.S. An even better analogy. You are at an all-you-can eat buffet restaurant. It is late at night and they are running low on roast beef. You step up to the buffet for seconds (or thirds, etc.) of roast beef. The waiter says, "Sorry. No more roast beef for you. We have to save what little is left for the patrons who have not had any. Feel free to eat as much of our other food as you can." Would that violate "all-you-can-eat"? How? |
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Pegasys66
join:2008-01-16
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to nanook
Pow pow!!!LOL
"No limit on data transfer so that your customers can surf and download 24x7"
This statement does not qualify or put any restrictions on the "No Limit" part now does it?
Meaning no limit in speeds or quantity...Point me to a statement to the contrary please.. |
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nanook
Premium,MVM
join:2007-12-02
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to R0CKY
said by R0CKY :said by theninjasqua :Someone should take some screen caps of that for safe keeping before someone from Bell reads this and goes and changes the site. Rest assured this has already been PDFd... If you are referring to "No limit on data transfer so that your customers can surf and download 24x7" Bell's lawyers can argue that throttling does not change that. Your customers remain free to surf and download as much as they can 24x7. And of course, unless similar language appears in the CRTC Tariff and/or the contract you have with Bell, what they say on their website is not legally binding.
[Do not shoot me. Just playing "devil's advocate."] |
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Pegasys66
join:2008-01-16 | reply to Agreed
However,it appears that that url is the entry to their website and the agreement refers to the website alone...
"WEB SITE TERMS AND CONDITIONS" |
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rubberglove
@teksavvy.com
| reply to TobiasFunke
I think those pics are actually quite informative. I have one recurring question, though.
I understand that teksavvy and other independent ISPs rent capacity on Bell's 'core network' to bring data from the COs to their own routers in Toronto. I remember Rocky (or someone) mentioning that they would love to use another carrier for this step, but cannot.
I was just wondering about the reason for this. Is it:
a) because Bell won't allow it (i.e. installing the necessary equipment in the CO)
b) there is no-one else who can offer that much bandwidth between the COs and 151 front street
c) the necessary equipment investment and alternative bandwidth costs are simply too high to even consider
or
d) some other 4th thing |
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avernar
join:2002-05-23
Mississauga, ON
clubs: | reply to Agreed
Those terms never came up before I read the other page and I never had to hit an "Agree" button. Not worth the bits they're printed on... |
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Agreed
@teksavvy.com | reply to Pegasys66
...however: »www.bell.ca/support/PrsCSrvGnl_W···rms.page |
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Pegasys66
join:2008-01-16 | reply to avernar
Done for each tab already |
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avernar
join:2002-05-23
Mississauga, ON
clubs: | reply to Pegasys66
The PDF is not the same as the web page so grabbing a copy of the web page is still a good idea. |
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Pegasys66
join:2008-01-16 | reply to R0CKY
There is a PDF available for download |
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avernar
join:2002-05-23
Mississauga, ON
clubs:
| reply to Pegasys66
From the web page:
"No limit on data transfer so that your customers can surf and download 24x7"
From the PDF:
"Your benefit – Consistent performance coupled with minimal service degradation improves your customers’ experience – and
their perception of your services." |
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R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON
| reply to theninjasqua
said by theninjasqua :Someone should take some screen caps of that for safe keeping before someone from Bell reads this and goes and changes the site. Rest assured this has already been PDFd...
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. |
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Comment
@teksavvy.com
| reply to Stewy
said by Stewy :Help me understand this. BELL has arrogated unto itself the determination of "undesirable". But when you speak of "content", it is not the end payload, (the actual bytes of the file or page), but the 'format' of the data within the packet. Worse, it seems that Bell is operating on a 'negative' test - if the 'format' is NOT one they recognize as "valid" (HTTP, FTP etc), then they "throttle" on the assumption that it is "undesirable". This causes all sorts of "collateral damage".
A packet is a packet is a packet. P2P should really be called MP2MP (Multiple Peers to Multiple Peers) in that the various 'formats' support a DISTRIBUTED data base where each peer is sending to many peers (if 'keeping their end of the bargain') at least as much data as they are receiving from many peers who are not necessarily the same. This conflicts with the nature of ADSL (the "A" being "asymmetric" in that the ratio of download capacity to upload capacity is not 1:1). Because the "tracking" requirements of a DISTRIBUTED data base will entail a slight additional overhead in comparison to a CENTRALIZED data base (such as Usenet where one peer is sending to many using NNTP), the total traffic will be a bit higher, but this is a factor of the data base type, not the 'format' used to transmit the data. |
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theninjasqua
join:2007-09-26
Oakville, ON
| reply to Pegasys66
Someone should take some screen caps of that for safe keeping before someone from Bell reads this and goes and changes the site.
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-theninjasquad |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC | reply to R0CKY
Whatever else happens with the CRTC, you can at the very least nail them for false advertising :P |
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R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | reply to Pegasys66
LOL... interesting second line under "You will get the following benefits"
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. |
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Pegasys66
join:2008-01-16 | reply to TobiasFunke
»www.bcenexxia.ca/wholesale/produ···gate.htm
No comment required I think |
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Stewy
Premium
join:2007-12-12
Kitchener, ON
| reply to recneps
Help me understand this.
On point number 3, who is judging "undesirable" content?
On point number 4, if you were to replace all P2P with the exact same amount of HTTP traffic. Would that have the exact same impact on "Bell's core network" as they put it.
In other words is P2P the same to manage as an HTTP packet?
It's as if Bell is saying that yes we can lease you virtual tunnels but you can only use them at %10 capacity in order for our "core network" to run. |
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