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Quaoar

join:2004-08-11
Fort Collins, CO

1 recommendation

reply to sortofageek

Re: Let's keep all DOCSIS 3.0 Discussion in this thread, please

Well, let me cogitate for a minute...

OK, here is the FACT of Docsis 3.0., IMO: Most of Comcast's network cannot support Docsis 3.0. Comcast can barely support user demands for downloads of video, music, etc., even though their users pay for say 8Mbps down and 768kbps up. Comcast is burdened by supplying minimal levels of HDTV content, and HSI is also way behind the demand curve. Comcast's infrastructure is good for 1980, but for 2008, it is a dead end. No way, no how, can Comcast demonstrate to any user that Comcast is providing the contracted up/down speeds at every second of every day. Comcast's network, in general, will not allow Comcast to generate a proof-positive guarantee of network performance since the network, overall, is a dead end without several billions of dollars of improvements.

Comcast, like every other broadband service, is doing a charade, a hand-waving exercise on its users to show that something is like or near what the users are paying for. But, there is no proof positive, because the proof will show that the paid-for tier performance in most areas cannot be obtained.

If Comcast has a reputable method for each and every subscriber to validate that Comcast is providing up/down speeds as advertised and paid for, then Comcast should step up to the plate and bat that proof ball out of the park.

It will not happen. Every high speed internet provider is doing the same smoke-and-mirrors slight-of-hand on up/down speed tiers while they winkey-winkey have services that prevent users from accessing their paid-for speeds. These secret speed limiting services are necessary because the overall networks cannot support the contracted speeds.

I know this, we know this, the only thing that makes this Comcast practice work is that we users do not unite and demonstrate that we are being hood-winked about our paid-for tier price for performance.

Comcast's network, cobbled up from many older cable TV systems, is at its limit. I believe that 99% of HSI users will never see Docsis 3.0 unless they are in the same area that Verizon is installing FIOS. Comcast will go balls to the wall to compete with FIOS, but Verizon has already demonstrated to the world at large that FIOS will be deployed to only the wealthiest of areas and not the world at large.

The evolution of internet access for downloading HD movies, etc., will demonstrate that Comcast has NOT provided for what they advertise and what we are paying for when our download speeds become a fraction of what we pay for in a year or two.

The charade is coming to an end. Comcast will have to own up to the fact that they have been selling us snake oil, and most of us have bought it. Myself included.

Docsis 3.0 is a figment of everyone's imagination, except in those areas that Comcast must counter Verizon's FIOS. 50 HDTV channels is a lost dream on Comcast's network, since Docsis3 and HDTV require much the same capital structure, and Comcast cannot provide the required improvements, except where FIOS magically appears.

Q


Der_Idiot

join:2008-02-10
Norwood Young America, MN

^-- Do you.... even know how the video and hsi operate over the lines? Docsis 3 bonds multiple channels, giving the ability to offer more bandwidth. As for the HD issue, there are plans to remove analogue signal in it's entirety (save for the basic1 plan), and move to on-request video feed -- only the channel you are watching is fed to your box at any time. IMO, I think this idea is a double edged sword..

I'll agree though, it's hard to provide docsis3 speeds to everyone, but be honest, could you build a network to provide bandwidth in excess of 50megabits to millions of subscribers, and operate it for a price that is anywhere near reasonable? I know I couldn't, not something that huge.



EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:9
reply to Quaoar

said by Quaoar:

Well, let me cogitate for a minute...

OK, here is the FACT of Docsis 3.0., IMO: Most of Comcast's network cannot support Docsis 3.0.
So which is it, "fact" as you state, or "your opinion" as you also state ? Seems like a contradiction...


TruSm0ke

join:2005-07-21
Michigan
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Der_Idiot

said by Der_Idiot:

I'll agree though, it's hard to provide docsis3 speeds to everyone, but be honest, could you build a network to provide bandwidth in excess of 50megabits to millions of subscribers, and operate it for a price that is anywhere near reasonable? I know I couldn't, not something that huge.
Not everyone will be able to be moved to DOCSIS v3 right away. This is already, for the most part, apparent(at the moment anyways).

It's hard to imagine any entity being able to supply that amount of bandwidth at any given time. But if they are selling it, they should be able to supply it. In this case, is where having a big corporation with alot of money is put to the test.

And for what it's worth, eventually it's going to come down to customers demanding it. And whether Comcast is smart with future developments, infrastructure future-proofing, and money allocating. Because to put it bluntly, if they don't they won't make it. Thats where the future is going, and thats what customers will demand eventually.

caco
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK
reply to Quaoar

said by Quaoar:

Well, let me cogitate for a minute...

OK, here is the FACT of Docsis 3.0., IMO: Most of Comcast's network cannot support Docsis 3.0. Comcast can barely support user demands for downloads of video, music, etc., even though their users pay for say 8Mbps down and 768kbps up. Comcast is burdened by supplying minimal levels of HDTV content, and HSI is also way behind the demand curve. Comcast's infrastructure is good for 1980, but for 2008, it is a dead end. No way, no how, can Comcast demonstrate to any user that Comcast is providing the contracted up/down speeds at every second of every day. Comcast's network, in general, will not allow Comcast to generate a proof-positive guarantee of network performance since the network, overall, is a dead end without several billions of dollars of improvements.

Comcast, like every other broadband service, is doing a charade, a hand-waving exercise on its users to show that something is like or near what the users are paying for. But, there is no proof positive, because the proof will show that the paid-for tier performance in most areas cannot be obtained.

If Comcast has a reputable method for each and every subscriber to validate that Comcast is providing up/down speeds as advertised and paid for, then Comcast should step up to the plate and bat that proof ball out of the park.

It will not happen. Every high speed internet provider is doing the same smoke-and-mirrors slight-of-hand on up/down speed tiers while they winkey-winkey have services that prevent users from accessing their paid-for speeds. These secret speed limiting services are necessary because the overall networks cannot support the contracted speeds.

I know this, we know this, the only thing that makes this Comcast practice work is that we users do not unite and demonstrate that we are being hood-winked about our paid-for tier price for performance.

Comcast's network, cobbled up from many older cable TV systems, is at its limit. I believe that 99% of HSI users will never see Docsis 3.0 unless they are in the same area that Verizon is installing FIOS. Comcast will go balls to the wall to compete with FIOS, but Verizon has already demonstrated to the world at large that FIOS will be deployed to only the wealthiest of areas and not the world at large.

The evolution of internet access for downloading HD movies, etc., will demonstrate that Comcast has NOT provided for what they advertise and what we are paying for when our download speeds become a fraction of what we pay for in a year or two.

The charade is coming to an end. Comcast will have to own up to the fact that they have been selling us snake oil, and most of us have bought it. Myself included.

Docsis 3.0 is a figment of everyone's imagination, except in those areas that Comcast must counter Verizon's FIOS. 50 HDTV channels is a lost dream on Comcast's network, since Docsis3 and HDTV require much the same capital structure, and Comcast cannot provide the required improvements, except where FIOS magically appears.

Q
Is Fios in the Twin Cities? No!

Now please stop with same argument over and over. You have no clue what you are talking about. Everyone can have an opinion, doesn't have to be right that is for sure!
--
»www.seabee.navy.mil


sortofageek
Runs from Clowns
Premium,Mod
join:2001-08-19
kudos:21
reply to Quaoar

(topic move) [Rant] Users are not reading ...

Moderator Action
The post that was here (and all 1 followups to it), has been moved to a new topic .. »[Rant] Users are not reading ...


pappy97

join:2007-03-12
Dallas, TX

1 edit
reply to Quaoar

Re: Let's keep all DOCSIS 3.0 Discussion in this thread, please

said by Quaoar:

but Verizon has already demonstrated to the world at large that FIOS will be deployed to only the wealthiest of areas and not the world at large.

FIOS rollout is not going to wealthiest of areas, it's going to places where Verizon is the local telco.

If it was about wealthy areas, it would be in Silicon Valley now which has a high average and median income. But not only is it not there, there are no forseeable plans to come to SV. Most of SV does not have Verizon as its local telco, so it's out. And the few areas that do are a bit remote to bring FIOS there.

The point is, it's pretty ridiculous to say that FIOS is only going to wealthy areas. There are areas that are much much poorer than tech-savvy Silicon Valley, yet they have FIOS and Silicon Valley may never have FIOS.
Expand your moderator at work


Quaoar

join:2004-08-11
Fort Collins, CO

2 edits
reply to pappy97

Re: Let's keep all DOCSIS 3.0 Discussion in this thread, please

Verizon is rolling out FIOS and bypassing residential areas that cannot pay the freight.

Q


veldy

join:1999-08-04
Minneapolis, MN

1 edit
reply to caco

said by caco:

Is Fios in the Twin Cities? No!

Now please stop with same argument over and over. You have no clue what you are talking about. Everyone can have an opinion, doesn't have to be right that is for sure!
QWest has announced it is deploying Fiber Optic [to the node] with ADSL2+ from the node. They are going to offer 12Mbps and 20Mbps. Comcast got ahead of QWest in offering this because they know that QWest will NEVER have the ability to do 50Mbps in the near future and that QWest hasn't actually deployed more than probably 5% of the fiber needed to give this capability to its customers. Comcast dropped fiber lines in place 6 or 7 years ago!

In short, they are offering it here first because QWest is poorly run company with ancient infrastructure and they can easily beat QWest at this game, no matter what cat QWest thinks it can pull out of that magic bag. Verizon FIOS on the other hand, is doing fiber to the home and Comcast can NOT compete with that directly should Verizon decide to open the pipe!

In short, QWest is an easy target and Minneapolis is full of tech savvy customers that will fill these forums with how great the Comcast product is!

Now you know why they chose the Twin Cities and now you know that in the end, they are behind the ball compared to the likes of Verizon FIOS.


ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN

As far I can see..Verizon already opened their pipes..20/20 and 15/15..Comcast is NO WHERE near that upload.

Plus Fios doesn't have caps.
--
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYueIC1pjM



eatnaders

join:2005-04-07
Mount Laurel, NJ
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to Der_Idiot

Well I guess I should point out something most people do not know. Most of the HFC in Comcast is from the Ped on the Street to the House. The only difference between Comcast and Verizon is a couple of hundred feet of HFC plant. Now I should also point out that DOCSIS 3.0 is bonding DS and US channels together. Example for your sake. 4 DS bonded channels, each DS channel being 6Mhz gives you 24Mhz using 256QAM, gives you theoretically 160Mb of DS bandwidth. You do the math. The Comcast Cable Plant is built out to 850Mhz. 24Mhz is a drop in the bucket with Comcast reclaiming analog channels back. Thats only 4 analog channels.



EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:9

said by eatnaders:

Now I should also point out that DOCSIS 3.0 is bonding DS and US channels together.
If this is to be interpreted *verbatim*, it is incorrect

Semantics ?? Likely !!!

ComcastTech

join:2008-05-31
reply to eatnaders

from the ped to the house? wow i wanna work where you live. so your saying its fiber to the curb?



cypherstream
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to eatnaders

And no ones built to 850 Mhz either. 864 Mhz technically (industry standard is 860 or 870 Mhz), but many many systems only work up to 750 MHz, and there's even some 600, and 550 MHz systems out there.

I don't understand this phrase: Most of the HFC in Comcast is from the Ped on the Street to the House.

What are you trying to say? HFC means Hybrid Fiber Coax, so your saying most of the Hybrid Fiber Coax in Comcast is from the Ped on the Street to the House. Well that's all coax, and the fiber is brought to a node. The node converts that fiber to RF over coax, and it passes 250 - 1600 homes depending on system architecture, age, investment, etc...

And I'm trying to find Der_Idiot's post that you are replying to.



EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:9

1 edit
reply to ComcastTech

said by ComcastTech:

from the ped to the house? wow i wanna work where you live. so your saying its fiber to the curb?
Huh ?? Why do you assume that is what is meant ?

Ped to the premises is RF..

ComcastTech

join:2008-05-31

eply to ComcastTech
Re: Let's keep all DOCSIS 3.0 Discussion in this thread, please

said by ComcastTech See Profile :

from the ped to the house? wow i wanna work where you live. so your saying its fiber to the curb?
Huh ?? Why do you assume that is what is meant ?

Ped to the premises is RF..

uh yeah i know i work for comcast.



EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:9

said by ComcastTech:

uh yeah i know i work for comcast.
Isn't that marvelous

ComcastTech

join:2008-05-31

lol its almost comcastic. ALMOST


joos

join:2008-06-26
Taunton, MA
reply to ztmike

if you listen to the fast talk at the end of the commercial it says "speeds not guaranteed.do a speed test with fios 20/20 you get about 15/3



EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:9

said by joos:

do a speed test with fios 20/20 you get about 15/3
Speed test to where ?
Expand your moderator at work

Bill03
Premium
join:2007-11-26
Richmond, VA

1 recommendation

reply to Quaoar

Re: Let's keep all DOCSIS 3.0 Discussion in this thread, please

You can't be serious. "No way, no how, can Comcast demonstrate to any user that Comcast is providing the contracted up/down speeds at every second of every day.."

So all of those speed test servers I've been using over the years to check my speeds are somehow magically manipulated by Comcast to show me what I want to see?

I'm not one to be sarcastic but you sound like one of those Flat Earth Society people who won't let go of the idea that the Earth is flat even after being shown proof it's round.