voip confused
@verizon.net
| How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? I only use VoIP with asterisk for my business. I post ads on craigslist for my business. Well last Thursday they made a new requirement to post in their services section. You have to use an account and it has to be phone verified. No problem I though until you read the fine print. You can verify a VoIP or a perpaid cell phone number. Well I use VoIP only for business and I use a T-Mobile Flex-pay for my mobile. In other words I am screwed.
My question for the experts is, How do they know I am using VoIP? I use vitelity and Voicestick as an inbound trunk.
Thanks in advance. | |
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nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
 ·ViaTalk
 ·Comcast
1 edit | Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by voip confused :
My question for the experts is, How do they know I am using VoIP? They don't.
Don't think there is a way to tell for most providers.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation | |
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curious123
@verizon.net
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? They do know somehow. I tried on my voicestick number and multiple vitelity numbers. I have an inbound route that goes straight to my extension. somehow they know. Try it yourself. I'm stumped by it! But the crazy thing is they know my mobile is prepaid as well. CRAZY! | |
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soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
1 edit | Apparently they use the services from reducefraud.com which does indeed attempt to identify the type of phone line it is.
If you go here, you can see how your phone number is IDed (limit of 5 demo lookups per day--appears cookie-based):
»www.reducefraud.com/demo/phoneid.php
They have at least the following categories:
Mobile
Mobile telephones are provided by companies such as Verizon, Cingular, or Sprint. Users of these phones must sign contracts, making these telephone numbers traceable. These phone numbers are generally low-risk. However, some prepaid mobile phones will be identified as Mobile. Internationally, phones identified as mobile may also include TETRA mobile phones, cordless access systems, proprietary fixed radio access, and fixed cellular systems
IDed: AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile prepaid
Fixed Line
Fixed-line phones include traditional landline phones and VOIP phones that can be traced back to a particular address and cannot be obtained by a user outside the phone number\'s designated country. Because these phone numbers are traceable, they are low-risk.
(IDed: Vonage number, Future-Nine temporary number, old Qwest number which was ported to Vonage and then Future-Nine)
Non-fixed VOIP
Voice Over Internet Protocol (VOIP) phone numbers are Internet-based telephone numbers. Non-fixed VOIP telephone numbers can easily be obtained by users who are not located in the country associated with the telephone number. They are untraceable and disposable; some can even be obtained for free. This means that a fraudster in Romania could easily obtain a US-based telephone number using a non-fixed VOIP service and receive a call to this number in his/her home in Romania.
IDed: GrandCentral, k7, IPKall, Callwave, VoiceStick
Prepaid Mobile
(I don't have a number that came up like this--my T-Mobile prepaid number came up like a normal mobile)
Toll-Free
Toll-Free numbers are numbers starting with toll-free area codes, such as (800) numbers. Although sometimes used by legitimate users calling from companies, fraudsters can easily obtain toll-free numbers that either forward to their telephone which is located in another country or toll-free numbers that terminate at an Internet voicemail box. Toll-free numbers always forward to non-toll-free numbers. For this reason, any legitimate user who provides a toll-free number and is asked to provide a non-toll-free number will be able to do so. We therefore recommend blocking users of tollfree numbers
I believe Craigslist will deny you if the number comes up as Prepaid Mobile, VoIP, or Toll-Free. | |
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| | soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14 | Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? Do you have one of those Ohio (567) Future Nine numbers or one from another area? (FN uses a different provider for them.)
You can check more numbers is you just delete the cookie from reducefraud.com with COUNT in it. | |
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N9MD
Premium
join:2005-10-08
Wayne, NJ
·VOIPo
·ViaTalk
·PHONE POWER
·Callcentric
1 edit | said by soitgoes2  :Apparently they use the services from reducefraud.com which does indeed attempt to identify the type of phone line it is. If you go here, you can see how your phone number is IDed (limit of 5 demo lookups per day--appears cookie-based): » www.reducefraud.com/demo/phoneid.php I've played around with the "reducefraud" site --- but I don't come up with the conclusions you've reached, soitgoes2.
It seems that this site is simply looking at the Area Code + Exchange + 1st digit (xxx-xxx-x---) to come up with the original NANPA assignment, not taking any inter-provider ports into account.
• My Verizon PSTN port to a ViaTalk VoIP account still shows as a "fixed line" (non-VoIP).
• My Verizon PSTN to Cingular/ATT/SBC cell phone still shows as a "fixed line", not cellular service.
• My NetZero VoIP DID port to Cingular/ATT/SBC cell phone still shows as a "non-fixed VoIP", not cellular service.
So, no matter how much porting goes on, the site you referenced only shows the originally assigned service for the number --- and, frankly, one can obtain more information form the »www.localcallingguide.com site.
If I recall correctly, the Sprint-Nextel site did provide up to date info on the current holder of a DID (PSTN, cellular, CLEC) at one time --- but because the site was overwhelmed by techies (probably all coming from the BBR Forums), they have blocked access. | |
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| | soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
2 edits | Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by N9MD :I've played around with the "reducefraud" site --- but I don't come up with the conclusions you've reached, soitgoes2. I think we actually agree and have reached the same conclusion.
ReduceFraud.com claims to do more than it does, but all it seems to do is look at the original provider assignment of the NPA-NXX-X or NPA-NXX.
said by N9MD :If I recall correctly, the Sprint-Nextel site did provide up to date info on the current holder of a DID (PSTN, cellular, CLEC) at one time Yes, it did, so the technology/database exists. ReduceFraud.com just isn't using it/doesn't have access to it. That, too, isn't foolproof, but it would be more accurate than their current service. | |
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burgerwars
join:2004-09-11
Northridge, CA
·voip.ms
·RoadRunner Cable
| said by soitgoes2 :Apparently they use the services from reducefraud.com which does indeed attempt to identify the type of phone line it is. If you go here, you can see how your phone number is IDed (limit of 5 demo lookups per day--appears cookie-based): » www.reducefraud.com/demo/phoneid.phpI believe Craigslist will deny you if the number comes up as Prepaid Mobile, VoIP, or Toll-Free. I tried it and my cellphone came up as VoIP. This is because I ported this number from a VoIP company last year. So it looks like it only knows how the number originated, and not that it has gone through a port. | |
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| zaldy
join:2007-12-07
·OneSuite
1 edit | said by soitgoes2 :Apparently they use the services from reducefraud.com which does indeed attempt to identify the type of phone line it is. If you go here, you can see how your phone number is IDed (limit of 5 demo lookups per day--appears cookie-based): » www.reducefraud.com/demo/phoneid.php I put in my Onesuite VoIP number and it shows fixed line and I put in another VoIP number and it shows Non-fixed voip. It's inconsistent at the moment. | |
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mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA | said by voip confused :
How do they know I am using VoIP? Is there any problem if such a company knows your line is VoIP or PSTN? | |
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| soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by mazilo :Is there any problem if such a company knows your line is VoIP or PSTN? The problem is if the company (in this case, Craigslist) denies you the ability to use their service if your number comes up as Prepaid Cellular or VoIP. | |
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| | mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by soitgoes2 :said by mazilo :Is there any problem if such a company knows your line is VoIP or PSTN? The problem is if the company (in this case, Craigslist) denies you the ability to use their service if your number comes up as Prepaid Cellular or VoIP. AFAIC, this isn't a problem at all. Just use other VoIP services.
--
Mazilo always prays for FREEBIES!
US Phone: +1-678-601-0907
UK Phone: +44-703-194-2574
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| | | soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
2 edits | Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by mazilo :AFAIC, this isn't a problem at all. Just use other VoIP services. What VoIP service do you intend to use? Vonage and FutureNine (Verizon/Global Crossing DID) were the only numbers not coming up as VoIP for me. Not everyone has access to such numbers. If you have a good suggestion of providers whose numbers come up as fixed line, please let me know (or PM). | |
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| | | | hwittenb
join:2003-12-20 | Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? My T-Mobile prepaid says OK, GrandCentral voip and IPKall voip.
They probably lookup who owns the NPA NXX X number block in a database like www.localcallingguide.com. If it is Level3 or somone suspect they reject it.
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| | | | | druber
join:2000-04-11
Marlborough, MA | Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? My verizon landline number ported to voipo comes up as fixed too, so I think you may be right. | |
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| | | | | soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
| said by hwittenb :They probably lookup who owns the NPA NXX X number block in a database like I would hope they look up more than that, but who knows.
I do know that current carrier info is contained in some databases. There was a while when the Nextel website would let you do an LNP check that gave the current carrier (not the carrier of the NPANXX block). | |
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| | | | | | Elecconnec
join:2008-02-21
Littleton, CO
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by soitgoes2 :said by hwittenb :They probably lookup who owns the NPA NXX X number block in a database like I would hope they look up more than that, but who knows. I do know that current carrier info is contained in some databases. There was a while when the Nextel website would let you do an LNP check that gave the current carrier (not the carrier of the NPANXX block). I just tried my cellphone number that I ported from a land line 3 years ago, and it came up "Fixed Line." I think the "ReduceFraud.com" guys are simply charging for NPA NXX lookups! (Nice work if you can get it!)  | |
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| | | | mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
| said by soitgoes2 :What VoIP service do you intend to use? Vonage and FutureNine (Verizon/Global Crossing DID) were the only numbers not coming up as VoIP for me. Not everyone has access to such numbers. If you have a good suggestion of providers whose numbers come up as fixed line, please let me know (or PM). I think what you tried to say is CL requires a PSTN and not VoIP number?
--
Mazilo always prays for FREEBIES!
US Phone: +1-678-601-0907
UK Phone: +44-703-194-2574
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| | | | | soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
1 edit | Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by mazilo :I think what you tried to say is CL requires a PSTN and not VoIP number? Nope. What I said is accurate.
Craigslist requires that your number be identified as "Fixed Line" or "Mobile" (not "Non-Fixed VoIP" or "Prepaid Mobile") by their provider, ReduceFraud.com, in order for you to be able to complete phone number verification and post in certain sections on CraigsList.
(As ReduceFraud.com says in their description of "Fixed Line" it may include some VoIP numbers, but they claim those are numbers for which the subscriber's identity has been verified.) | |
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voip confused
@verizon.net
| soitgoes2: Great info. So there is a way to identify the type of phone number. CRAZY! You guesses it. My voicestick and vitelity both came up as non-fixed voip.
So the questions, is there a asterisk friendly, low cost, did provider?
TIA | |
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| soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
1 edit | Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by voip confused :
So the questions, is there a asterisk friendly, low cost, did provider? Future Nine (»www.futurenine.com) offers Global Crossing/Verizon DIDs for $4/month. Prayer reported an FN DID coming up as Voip, but I think that was one of the other FN providers...hopefully Prayer can confirm that. (I tested both my ported in DID and my temp DID and they came up as fixed line.)
Also, a couple of us reported T-Mobile prepaid as coming up as normal mobile (though I think you said yours came up as prepaid). Someone mentioned TracPhone working as well. | |
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voip confused
@verizon.net
| So future-nine, I have seen allot of posts from you on this and other forums so maybe you will read this, any plans of offering DID that are not unlimited usage? That would be the best scenario for me. I would end up using the incoming, but wouldn't need that much incoming. Maybe a buck for the DID and pay as you go? | |
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| soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by voip confused :
Maybe a buck for the DID and pay as you go? Nitzan will have to speak for himself, but I think it has to do with the rate structure he pays. If you want an inbound only service or additional DIDs, I think the cost drops to $3/mo., but Nitzan will have to clarify that.
It would make sense that those FN numbers (from Global Crossing/Verizon) are coming up as Fixed Line, as Nitzan has said they are registered in the end-user's name.
I know that BruceN from VoiceStick indicated they were leaving Level3. I don't know if their new provider would be more compatible with coming up as a Fixed Line.
Also, VOIPO is set to be making a broader release. There's talk of their having a $24/yr. DID VoipO Express plan. However, I think their underlying carrier might be Level3, so that might not work for this purpose. Maybe one of the VoipO alpha/beta testers who didn't port in a number but had one assigned by VoipO could check their number. | |
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burris
Premium
join:2000-08-22
Miami, FL
·VOIPo
 ·AT&T Southeast
·ViaTalk
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by soitgoes2 :said by voip confused :
Maybe a buck for the DID and pay as you go? Nitzan will have to speak for himself, but I think it has to do with the rate structure he pays. If you want an inbound only service or additional DIDs, I think the cost drops to $3/mo., but Nitzan will have to clarify that. It would make sense that those FN numbers (from Global Crossing/Verizon) are coming up as Fixed Line, as Nitzan has said they are registered in the end-user's name. I know that BruceN from VoiceStick indicated they were leaving Level3. I don't know if their new provider would be more compatible with coming up as a Fixed Line. Also, VOIPO is set to be making a broader release. There's talk of their having a $24/yr. DID VoipO Express plan. However, I think their underlying carrier might be Level3, so that might not work for this purpose. Maybe one of the VoipO alpha/beta testers who didn't port in a number but had one assigned by VoipO could check their number. I just tried this with a temp number given to me by VOIPo.
I shows as a fixed line.. | |
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soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
| Even though I am not a heavy CraigsList user, I'm following this closely because of its potential to become an issue in a number of industries.
I am doubtful that this type of verification will do anything to reduce fraud or spam in the long run (the reliability is suspect, for one). Also, I know that ReduceFraud.com is being used by companies other than CL, and if that spreads, it could be harmful to those of us who no longer have traditional landlines unless we have a phone number that is deemed by this company as a good risk. It could become sort of like a credit report, except that you don't know who the reporting agency is (I had to do some digging to find repairfraud.com) and there's no way to dispute the info.
Fraud is a problem--as BruceN, Nitzan and others can confirm--but I wonder if this opens up new access issues as well.
If I were a company interested in implementing ReduceFraud.com's verification system, I would probably add an alternative verification process for those numbers that don't meet more stringent criteria. Otherwise, you're shutting out a huge market. | |
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| lowno
join:2008-05-11
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? This creates serious access issues. How is someone that is def going to be able to post. The city I grew up in has a very large def community.
But more common is the adoption of VoIP. I use VoIP for my business and love it. I also setup IP PBX's. The way things are going, VoIP is going to be commonplace. It's really messed up if services exclude these users. | |
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| | soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by lowno :This creates serious access issues. How is someone that is def going to be able to post. The city I grew up in has a very large def community. They will provide the verification code as a text message (there is a choice between voice and text.) | |
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anon121
@sbcglobal.net
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? soitgoes2: I don't think that option does what you think it does. That applies to your method of regurgitation the "audio only" code. If you choose text, CL takes you to a page to manually use text input for the code. A text message is not sent to you.
nitzan: I would love to get a few of these DID's from you if possible. | |
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| | | | soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by anon121 :
soitgoes2: I don't think that option does what you think it does. That applies to your method of regurgitation the "audio only" code. If you choose text, CL takes you to a page to manually use text input for the code. A text message is not sent to you. No, it really sends a text message if you select 'text'. If you select voice, it calls you. With either method, it takes you to a page to input the number in a text box.
(I tested this today.) | |
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| | | | | ejrobinson
Premium
join:2003-05-16
Miami Beach, FL | Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? My vonage comes up as fixed line number. Lingo number says non-fixed voip. Go figgur!
-er | |
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| nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| I just tested this against some of our DIDs, and just like you guessed the 567's come up as VoIP, everything from Verizon comes up as fixed.
Their statement that "Fixed" numbers cannot be obtained by people overseas is absolutely incorrect.
I was looking at the site from a provider perspective to see if it can help us reduce fraud at Future Nine. Unfortunately it is not reliable nor accurate enough. Maybe a nice afterthought to see if it matches everything else we check for - but that's about it.
Having a DID for verification purposes only does sound like something which might be necessary if a lot of businesses implement stuff like this. We'd be glad to do it (after we verified your identity, of course  but there is a caveat:
DIDs from Level 3 (VoiceStick and many others) are priced with a very low monthly fee, and per-minute fees. DIDs from Verizon have a higher monthly fee, but no per-minute fee.
What that means is that it doesn't matter if you use your DID or not - the cheapest I could offer it currently is $3 - and that is assuming it's on a "incoming only" type account (so we can avoid E911). What we could do however is set up some type of forwarding where we'll keep these DIDs on incoming-only accounts and forward them on to a PSTN # of your choice.
This applies if you're looking for a local DID to get verified with. We are currently working on an agreement with a California CLEC to get better termination and origination rates over there, and part of that will give us a very low monthly price on DIDs. We do have to pay for the channels we require, but if you're only going to use the DIDs for verifications, we could probably do it for something very low like $1/month.
That is, assuming their DIDs show up as "Fixed". We will have to test that.
We also have contacts in a NYC CLEC for the same thing. We didn't take them up on their offer because we didn't have enough NYC customers yet to justify the monthly commitment they would require, but I just checked and they do show as Fixed, and their pricing structure is the same (very low DID monthly fee + price per channel).
If/when we decide to take the plunge with both of these, it will also mean we'll be able to offer cheaper "unlimited" type DIDs for CA and NYC, and probably free porting too.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation | |
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Fisamo
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Apex, NC
·VOIPo
·AT&T CallVantage
| Summary of my reported #'s:
•Voipo Beta # - FIXED
•Stanaphone # - Non-fixed VOIP
•AxVoice # - FIXED line
•CallVantage # (ported from BS) - FIXED
•CallVantage test # (no longer mine) - FIXED
•Verizon wireless # - Mobile
•FireFly Wireless # - Mobile (not prepaid, which it is; don't remember what ID info I gave when signing up, besides email address) | |
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| soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? The data points we're collecting really does make it seem as though all they are doing is looking at the NPA-NXX-X original carrier assignment and not anything more advanced than that. Pretty silly, but, hey, it's cheap, easy data, and they can charge for it. | |
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CyberSultan
Premium
join:2006-07-20 | Just tried my VT line. Showed up as a fixed line. | |
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See 7 replies to this post |
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lowno
join:2008-05-11 | So, so far the only 2 providers with pay as you go plans are future-nine at $4 per month and voipo which is still in beta? | |
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| druber
join:2000-04-11
Marlborough, MA | Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? not sure what you mean? there are a zillion PAYG providers:
voipstreet
vitelity
callcentric
voicepulse connect
(and many more) | |
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| | lowno
join:2008-05-11 | Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? Yea, I am just listing the PAYG providers that come up as a fixed number. Should be clear if you read the thread. | |
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ssj4android
Redefining Reality
join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI
| said by voip confused :
I only use VoIP with asterisk for my business. I post ads on craigslist for my business. Well last Thursday they made a new requirement to post in their services section. You have to use an account and it has to be phone verified. No problem I though until you read the fine print. You can verify a VoIP or a perpaid cell phone number. Well I use VoIP only for business and I use a T-Mobile Flex-pay for my mobile. In other words I am screwed.
My question for the experts is, How do they know I am using VoIP? I use vitelity and Voicestick as an inbound trunk.
Thanks in advance.
I'm confused, do you mean you can't use VOIP or a prepaid cellphone?
And I tried two Virgin Mobile phone numbers on that site, come up as just 'mobile'. | |
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| soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14
·Future Nine Corpor..
| Re: How does craigslist know I am using a VoIP service???? said by ssj4android :I'm confused, do you mean you can't use VOIP or a prepaid cellphone? And I tried two Virgin Mobile phone numbers on that site, come up as just 'mobile'. If ReduceFraud.com identifies your number as "non-fixed VoIP" or "prepaid mobile", CraigsList will not let you verify your account with that phone number.
The system, as we've discovered here, is far from accurate.
said by druber :not sure what you mean? there are a zillion PAYG providers: I believe lowno was referring to PAYG providers whose DIDs were being identified by reducefraud.com as "fixed lines". | |
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goodchefro
join:2007-02-21
Macomb, IL
·Logonix Corporation
1 edit | said by voip confused :
I only use VoIP with asterisk for my business. I post ads on craigslist for my business. Well last Thursday they made a new requirement to post in their services section. You have to use an account and it has to be phone verified. No problem I though until you read the fine print. You can verify a VoIP or a perpaid cell phone number. Well I use VoIP only for business and I use a T-Mobile Flex-pay for my mobile. In other words I am screwed. So if you CAN verify either a VoIP or a prepaid cell phone number what's actually the point of the post/thread?
Did you mean CANNOT?
And if that's the case, it is Craigslist the only Internet venue where you can advertise, professionally, for your business? | |
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