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join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
| reply to en102
Re: Waiting...
said by en102  :It would be easier to deal with overloaded nodes at times than going through caps/filters/traffic shaping techniques. Only for those CAUSING the overload. For everyone else, this will be an improvement.
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·DSL EXTREME
| I don't know.. I've never had issues with an overloaded node on cable or DSL... which is why I see this as a method of rate increase for consumers.
Eg. Lowest tiers ( 1.5Mbps or less) should not need caps, yet they're typically capped hard to purchase a higher rate plan, which is now set as an overloaded node, and requires traffic shaping and/or caps. The end result for the AVERAGE user is not much (i.e. going from a 1.5 to 10Mbps) unless they are bit torrent / gamers / VOD users.
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
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join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
 ·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
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| said by en102 :I don't know.. I've never had issues with an overloaded node on cable or DSL... which is why I see this as a method of rate increase for consumers. Unfortunately your experience doesn't necessarily match that of all other Internet users. Just look at the poor bastards on Embarq service in Indiana that regularly see latency shoot to 300+ms round trip because Embarq doesn't throttle anyone:
»Embarq network congestion, latency and packet loss in IN
P2P users don't care - they can fire up their client and walk away. For anyone else trying to use VoIP, game, or even just surf the web the situation just sucks. |
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | True - not all nodes are good on all providers.
DSL-Extreme has been good.
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Canada = Hollywood North |
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jc100
join:2002-04-10
| reply to espaeth
Simple solution. Limit the speed of high users, hence alleviating congestion and free up speed for everyone else. If everyone has 10/1 and say 10 percent of users exceed a CLEAR CUT TRACKABLE CAP (IE offer software or online counter to track usage), these 10 percent get throttled to a slower speed. Say maybe 3/512 or 2/512 for the remaining month. This A) Cuts down on lawsuits and investigations as no traffic shaping is taking place. B) ISPS say UP TO in their speed clause meaning they can offer less. C) Make it clear to users. This way you don't alienate everyone. Also, no one is disconnected. The worst that happens is their speed is slower. |
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
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join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
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| said by jc100 :Simple solution. Limit the speed of high users, hence alleviating congestion and free up speed for everyone else. That's exactly what it sounds like Comcast is implementing here, no? |
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jc100
join:2002-04-10 | Nope they are instituting usage caps (X amount allowed) versus speed caps (no limits on usage but limits on bandwidth capacity). I think a bandwidth capacity limit would be better than a usage cap. My 2 cents. |
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
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join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
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| Actually, I don't disagree with that at all. The key constraint in networks is rate, not quantity, so it only makes sense to come up with a good mechanism for balancing the traffic rates that each subscriber gets. In the hosting world quantity based limits are loved by users and hated by providers, because all too often someone will wait until the last 3 or 4 days of the billing cycle to decide they want to move 400GB of data but still be under their 1500GB/mo limit.
The problem is that most users have trouble with the difference between rate and quantity when it comes to talking about bandwidth. It happens in nearly every thread on this site.
I wonder if there is any good way to bridge that gap in understanding to arrive at a shared network plan that is truly fair? |
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jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Well the honest truth is this, and honestly this. You have a large share of users who are not tech savvy. They are susceptible to hackers, viruses, botnets, etc. These users wouldn't know the difference if they used the bandwidth or someone else. The other half are tech savvy but probably could care less. You have a small amount who given the tools would be conscience of their usage. Therefore, my solution above is the most reasonable. For the less tech savvy, their bandwidth is slowed down. It will cut usage on the network, and make them solve the problem of why they consume bandwidth (virus, hacked, etc). For the other portion that like to download a ton, capping them with speed limits would make them more conscientious. Let's face it, people don't want to wait a long time on their download. Making a 10mbit line 2-3mbit down is quite a punishment. It is enough to where it might discourage high users but not to the point where it pisses them off. Plus, it lessons the strain on the network. I know some foreign isps do this. Cap high users during peak hours. It would be a start. |
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funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
1 edit | reply to espaeth
said by espaeth :The problem is that most users have trouble with the difference between rate and quantity when it comes to talking about bandwidth. It happens in nearly every thread on this site. Q. What's the difference between 60 miles per hour or a mile per minute?
A. None
Bandwidth is bandwidth is bandwidth. If you have an amount divided by a time period, that's an expression of bandwidth.
Only in Comcast land do people invent concepts to purposefully cloud the issue. What's surprising is that people actually buy it and repeat it!
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
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join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
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| said by funchords :Q. What's the difference between 60 miles per hour or a mile per minute? 60 miles per hour could be 50 minutes of 0 miles per minute, and 10 minutes of 6 miles per minute.
said by funchords :Bandwidth is bandwidth is bandwidth. If you have an amount divided by a time period, that's an expression of bandwidth. But interfaces are only capable of moving so many bit per second. It doesn't matter if 1mbps is roughly 330GB/mo -- that doesn't mean you can try to move 330GB in just one of those 30 days and have it work.
This is like reporting how many cars a highway can move per hour vs how many cars it can move per day. Those are vastly differently numbers with very different meanings.
You're demonstrating my point quite nicely though, Robb. You're an incredibly sharp guy (I mean this genuinely, no BS), and yet you're falling into the same pitfalls most on this site do. |
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funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
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| I feel like the guy who wakes up as if he was struck by lightening, shakes his head to ward off the effects, and says "what the hell happened?"
We never used to talk about bandwidth as if it was a datarate versus consumption. A few people found reason to do so (the bandwidth aggregators). But why do we drink the cool-aid?
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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jc100
join:2002-04-10
| reply to espaeth
ESP,
I think a better exampled would be one like this in clearer terms. Say Highway X can hold 10,000 cars along a 25 miles stretch at capacity. Normally, there are only 5,000 cars or less and traffic runs pretty smooth. There are few backlogs, traffic jams, etc during the day. Yet, at 5 P.M. everyone gets off work, and now there are 10,000 cars on that highway for the next two hours. Obviously, everyone is slowed down, making less efficient time. This is pretty typical of MOST highways in major cities.
Basically put, this example correlates with my bandwidth model of slowing high users down. It's about the best win win anyone can ever see. ISPS seem to think building out is a swear word, and would like to find ways to make their outdated and oversold systems last. Customers are use to the "Unlimited" marketing we've seen for the last ten years. So the only solution is to do this. During the day (or non rush hour), let everyone have full capacity. However, during peak hours, everyone who has exceeded a CLEARLY stated cap has their bandwidth turned down so faster cars can go around. It would be like building a bypass so those 10,000 people are not all stuck in traffic longer due to the accident up the road. It sucks that a few people can ruin it for all, but in this day and age where businesses have millions to lobby, it won't change. As long as they keep lining Washington's pockets, we the customer, will rarely so pro consumer initiatives. The only way this changes is when consumers either
A) Speak up
B) Speak with their wallets
C) mobilize lots of people to rally around a central idea. |
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
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join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
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| reply to funchords
said by funchords :We never used to talk about bandwidth as if it was a datarate versus consumption. A few people found reason to do so (the bandwidth aggregators). But why do we drink the cool-aid? Who's we?
The discussion has always traditionally been speeds and feeds. Some of the rate qualifications has dropped out of the public vernacular, but the rate is always a critical component. We talk about "10 meg" NICs and "8meg" broadband and "56k dialup", but all those things refer to the number of bits per second the interface is capable of. You can't buy a 5GB/mo interface.
I think you're missing the premise of increasing speed to improve efficiency, not necessarily to increase quantity. One of the reasons broadband providers are giving high speeds (ie powerboost) is to get you on and off the network faster. The websites you visit push the same quantity of data whether you have a 1mbps or a 100mbps line, so providing you with a faster connection gets you on and off the network faster. In a network where access EVERY SECOND is statistically multiplexed, this is important.
When it comes to broadband scaling, it's a matter of adjusting for both increasing speed to increase quantity and increasing speed to improve efficiency. Of course, some applications are natural enemies to the improve efficiency goal. |
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