irked
@verizon.net
| water heater installed right? I just had a replacement A.O. Smith water heater installed by someone recommended by a contractor friend. The installer brought an apprentice to do the work, supervised him--I thought. But after they had left I noticed solder dribbling down the incoming and outgoing water pipes (about 3 inches or so, ugly blobs) and solder drips on top of the water heater. Plus other minor indications of a sloppy job. It doesn't leak, but it looks bad.
They also used adhesive aluminum tape around the connection for the exhaust pipe. I've purchased a similar tape in an auto supply store and wasn't too happy with it. One step up from duct tape. Can it be all right to use on a heated appliance?? How long can it possibly last? I assume there's a more solid connection under the tape. The old heater had a sheet-metal to sheet-metal, riveted connection between the heater and the exhaust pipe.
I tried to whack off the solder with a hammer and chisel, but no luck. The installer says he'll come back and clean it up. Should I object to the tape too? This wasn't a cheap job, $830 for a 50-gallon, non-conservationist tank. They used the same plumbing as the old heater.
Thanks to anyone offering insight. | |
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
3 edits | Re: water heater installed right? Don't worry. All those things are normal.
Sure it could have been a little neater but really it's ok. That tape is standard fare now.
Oh, if it was me I would stop chisseling off those dribles now. You're really looking for trouble there. | |
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SandShark
So it goes
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-23
Santa Fe, TX
clubs:
 ·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with mityfowl  about sloppy work being "normal". I take great pride in my installations, including work I do in attics, even if no one but me ever sees it.
If you're not happy with the job, I'd recommend calling the contractor and telling him you're not happy. Aesthetics is important. There's nothing wrong with using an apprentice. How else are they going to learn, but if he did a sloppy job, he needs to know.
As far as the aluminum tape being used on the double-wall vent pipe, I'm pretty sure that's a code violation and would not be allowed by The National Fuel Gas Code. If the vent pipe is installed correctly, there is no reason to use aluminum tape.
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Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas; it is a creative art. - Ansel Adams | |
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 | robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| Re: water heater installed right? I don't see the fact that the solder dripped down indicating the job was done in a sloppy or unworkmanlike manner. Now if the copper were kinked or they made a 3" hole through the ceiling for a 1/2" pipe it would be a different matter. Solder sometimes dribbles and even drips (the solder on the top of the tank should be easy enough to clean up).
I'm not a plumber but I don't think the aluminum tape would be a fire hazard. It certainly would help prevent minor vent leaks. Perhaps one of our plumbers will chime in on this issue. | |
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SandShark
So it goes
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-23
Santa Fe, TX
clubs: | Re: water heater installed right? That's cool. No problem. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. | |
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Rifleman
Premium
join:2004-02-09
p1a
clubs: | Your quality of work will get around. It takes very little extra effort to ensure a neat job. Even on the hidden work behind the walls. | |
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX | But guys tell him to stop chiseling around. Let the GC look at it. | |
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX | Did you pull tags and permits and seals?
Really your asking for a lot. | |
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TODarling
U.S. Army Retired
Premium
join:2004-11-27
Fort Smith, AR
| Found this on a DIY site.
The last step is to wipe the joint. With an old, old rag (which you're going to throw away and never use again), perhaps moistened slightly, folded to several thicknesses to protect your hand from this very hot pipe, quickly wipe the excess solder and flux away. Your goal is a bright, clean, shiny joint, with clean copper on both sides and a little band of silver-gray right at the joint, with no big blobs of solder or streaks of flux. You might imagine you can skip this step, because an unwiped joint doesn't look too bad at first, either, but a few weeks later, the residual flux will have corroded the exterior of the pipe and left ugly green streaks. (Also the greasy flux residue will be impossible to paint, if it matters.) | |
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jlachowin
join:2008-05-29
Milwaukee, WI | I think SandShark knows what he's talking about. Ugly joints are, well, ugly. | |
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
| The joints should have been wiped but there really is no issue if it is not - it will not corrode the copper or anything else - it is only a 'problem' with looks and nothing else. I certainly would not use it as an excuse not to buy a house or anything like that.
The installer offered to come back and fix it up - no big deal and what he should have offered (rather than blowing you off which is what they could have done).
For this reason - I usually have my plumber to this type of work rather than deal with contractor roulette at any big box store (Blue/Orange box).
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Brian
Free health care is 100% a misnomer - it is not free and never will be free. | |
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treetop1000
join:2003-11-07
Lexington, KY
| Thats called flue tape and yes, that is what it's designed for. I've used it on stovepipes on indoor free-standing cast iron wood and coal stoves. Using it on a gas hot water heater is allowed, the adhesive sets with exposure to high temp, and as long as you dont try to remove it, it sets up and provides a really good seal on leaky flue joints.
Think of it as extremely high temp duct tape. I even used it to patch a cars rusted out old muffler (just before I sold it) to keep the noise down. Works well, just dont expect longevity when exposed to the weather.
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SandShark
So it goes
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-23
Santa Fe, TX
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: water heater installed right? said by treetop1000 :Thats called flue tape and yes, that is what it's designed for. I've used it on stovepipes on indoor free-standing cast iron wood and coal stoves. Using it on a gas hot water heater is allowed, the adhesive sets with exposure to high temp, and as long as you dont try to remove it, it sets up and provides a really good seal on leaky flue joints. Think of it as extremely high temp duct tape. I even used it to patch a cars rusted out old muffler (just before I sold it) to keep the noise down. Works well, just dont expect longevity when exposed to the weather. That's useful information, however, on a gas hot water heater there is absolutely no reason to be using any kind of tape on the vent, especially a new installation.
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Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas; it is a creative art. - Ansel Adams | |
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Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs: | How about some pics of the slop job? | |
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irked
@verizon.net
 from:
SandShark
| The tape is OK according to the National Fuel Gas Code. It's nice to know why--thanks, Cheese. Roses to Sand Shark for his high standards.
I had uploaded a photo of the job but it didn't show up. The tape is wrinkled and looks amateurish, but not as bad as the drooling solder. (And hardy har har, mityfowl, about my wanting to pull the permits and tags.)
Thanks again for all your helpful insights and amusing putdowns. DSL reports is the best website on the entire Web, IMHO.
BWT, I was astonished that this thread showed up already on Google, at the top of the list, when I entered the right keywords. | |
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
| Re: water heater installed right? No irked there was another thread, I think it was in the suburbs of Chicago, where the guy DID get fined from the city for not pulling a permit for the water heater he bought either at HD or Lowes. Cost him about $400 extra for that!
Glad it worked out ok. I would like to see the pics too if you get it worked out. | |
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joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| Yes Google does a great job of getting content on popular forums up to the top of search listings. I'm not sure what the reason is but I see it happen all the time, and not just on this site. I think because it could be more likely to be real content and because they know its very fresh.
It's actually a great way to get a message out. Say "john smith plumbers" installed a water heater incorrectly and it blew up and you want to warn people... start a thread "John Smith Plumbers Blew up my House!" and anyone that searches google for "John Smith Plumbers" will find that probably at the top of the 1st page of search results.
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09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0 | |
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tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium
join:2001-02-13
Carnegie, PA
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
2 edits | Re: water heater installed right? Tape is NOT certified by NFGC.
There is no tape certified to hold to 400°F, this is why.
If one of the joints has to hold any weight of the pipe, and the tape lets go, the flue line will fall off and fill the room will combustion components. Then we have dead or sick people.
Sheet metal screws or rivets are the only certified method of securely joining flue pipe.
As it was mentioned before "tape is good for a leaky flue" NOT.
Chimneys operate on -.02" of water column, plus or minus -.03. If the chimney cannot provide enough draw, and hot gasses can be felt either at the joints or at the flue diverter, there is a problem. Metal flue line needs no seals.
Yes I am a licensed plumber.
-j | |
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| | robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
1 edit | Re: water heater installed right? said by tp0d :Tape is NOT certified by NFGC. There is no tape certified to hold to 400°F, this is why. Reading the NFGC I don't see where it states that the material has to be certified. It appears to be OK if the material is used in accordance with manufacturers recommendations. 3M Hi-Temp Flue Tape is recommended for use at temperatures up to 600 degrees Fahrenheit so it would appear to not be a violation of the National Fuel Gas Code to use such tape on a water heater vent flue. If they used sheet metal screws also then there would seem to be even less of an issue.
»www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004Z4DS
"Product Description
1-1/2" x 15' Hi-Temp Silver Flue Tape, Resists Moisture & Temperatures Up To 600 Degrees F, Seals Metal Flue Pipe Joints On Furnaces, Stops Leaks From Hot Air Ducts, Can Be Used Indoors & Outdoors."
said by tp0d :Sheet metal screws or rivets are the only certified method of securely joining flue pipe. Perhaps you should reread the code. Section 12.11.7 gives three methods for fastening vent joints and rivets are not even mentioned. | |
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Crymeariver
@charter.com
thumbs down from:
SandShark
| Not dribbling solder on a pipe! Might want to look over the water heater for fingerprints as well, the cad probably left some on it. I'd also search for any remnants of shiny marks around anything that took a wrench to tighten. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Re: water heater installed right? Always has to be one in every thread.  | |
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TMMerlin
The Devil made me do it
join:2003-06-19
Oxford, MI
·EarthLink
2 edits | If the "plum'mers mate" did that crappy a job on his Union Ticket Practical Test .. he would flunk !! Besides, this is a "paying job" and the installation must be perfect. Demand a "job clean-up"..it's been my experience with craft workers, that they are anal about perfection .. it's also thier ticket to getting $60 to $80 /hour labor rate on a paying job ! | |
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irked
@verizon.net
| TpOd is right about the tape not being OK per the NFGC. I found the following on bradfordwhite.com, part of their manual for installing water heaters, so thought the tape is OK.
"WARNING All joints in the vent/air intake piping must be taped with aluminum tape at the completion of the venting system installation to prevent any possible leakage into the room. Make sure all the pipe connections are firmly pressed together so that the gaskets form a tight seal."
The tape doesn't appear to be on a bearing joint, so would lose function only if the adhesive gave out and it peeled away. It's around the vent where it exits the heater (straight up, out of the top) and may just be a topcoat for the main connection. But I want to be sure about that. (Is that clear? I tried sending the photo again. Uploaded a .jpg straight out of the camera, twice, and even changed it to a GIF, but DSL's website kept saying it couldn't find the attachment.)
Hello again, mityfowl. New York City requires a permit only if the combined BTUs of the gas furnace and water heater exceed 350,000. Everyone except one plumber (a large US chain) said I don't need a permit for this water heater, and I think the chain's rep was just trying to get an extra $400 out of me. (I tried to find out the BTU of my furnace, was unable to easily, so just figured it was unlikely to be 290,000. This is a furnace for a single-family frame house, 2500 square feet.)
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
1 edit | Re: water heater installed right? I think a modern home that size is about a 100,000 btu (forced air). I know mine is.
I do though have a 400,000 btu pool heater. When it starts up it's like a jet plane. | |
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| | | robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX | Re: water heater installed right? Actually it makes a lot of sense -- what the use of investing in a pool if you can't use it 2 months of the year?  | |
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX | Re: water heater installed right? With a little bit of planning a nice turn of the weather I can use the pool from mid April until mid Oct.
Now the reason for it is the spa. 12 months a year and it get hot fast! Plus I got a good deal on that size. | |
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| | | | | robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX | Re: water heater installed right? This time of year the spa needs a chiller! | |
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX | Re: water heater installed right? This time of year I don't even know where the on/off switch is. | |
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robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| Saying that the tape is not ok per the NFGC and then stating that the manufacturer instructions require it is contradictory to the NFGC. According to the NFGC 12.11.7 Joints ... shall be fastened... (2) By vent connectors of listed vent material assembled and connected to flue collars or draft hood outlets in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. | |
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See 10 replies to this post |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
| I found it.
It wasn't tough. | |
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