pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
| Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing
I still don't get what workers gain by striking. Why would it be so hard to work under the terms of the current contract until a new one is negotiated, even if it takes years? Workers still get paid for their work, still get raises, and work gets done, everyone stays happy.
Personally, I think the union might be realizing that Verizon's potential cost of replacing them might be going down. If this is the case, then they would be the big losers in a strike.
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neotorian
join:2008-08-03
Sarasota, FL
| Because if we don't stand our ground, the company will walk all over us. What they were bringing to the table wasn't just as simple as making us pay a percentage of our health benefits; they wanted to take our retirement, extend and reduce any future raises, and basically drastically reduce what we got in the previous contract. That's not a negotiation, it's a giant company trying to cut costs at the place where it should be giving back a little more because it's us that keep this company going.
And fyi, it's a little more expensive to replace the bulk of us than you might think. Craft is a trade that can't be learned over night; yes you can train a guy to do it in 1-2 weeks, but if you saw our systems and how screwed up things can get, it would be more trouble than it's worth to send out a bunch of guys that have only seen it in a book because they would quickly learn that what they saw in training is COMPLETELY different than how it is in the real world, which is exactly why our tech support sucks so bad sometimes.
I hope we don't have to strike though, I really do. Even if the company would be doing it for the wrong reasons. |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| The union will sell out future workers and past retirees in the new contract.
The deal will ultimately give current workers a raise and some protection from layoffs. New hires will get reduced pay and benefits and the retirees will be lucky to keep benefits at the same levels they have now, even though their costs(especially health care) continue to rise.
The company will keep hiring contractors as they reduce the size of the union workforce thru retirement and attrition(people who quit or are fired for cause).
Given the world economy, union power will continue to decline.
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
1 edit | Verizon isn't competing in a "World Economy". What foreign competition does Verizon have?
Meanwhile as our gov't continues to sell us out to China and Mexico, US standard of living will decline. |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| said by Dogfather  :Verizon isn't competing in a "World Economy". What foreign competition does Verizon have? The reality of a world economy and lower 3rd world pay scales reduces the costs of labor around the world - even for companies and their workers who don't do business outside the country. As worker pay scales sink in international competitive industries it reduces pay scales in all industries.
All Verizon has to do is say to the union: "we will replace all you union workers and where will you get equivalent pay in other industries." The union leadership knows their workers would take drastic pay cuts if they hit the street. And that is how even a company like Verizon can reduce wages - thru the threat of making their workers compete against foreign workers if they eliminate their jobs at Verizon and force them to find jobs in other industries(where only 15% of the workforce is unionized). And don't forget the threat of using contractors/outsourcing who use cheaper immigrant(legal & otherwise) labor flooding in to the U.S.
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
 ·Verizon FIOS
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4 edits | Verizon doesn't compete in a global economy and doesn't have to compete with anyone but other domestic suppliers. And they would only suffer pay cuts in the open market because of gov't failure to enforce employment law. Gov't always kisses the ass of big business and loves illegal labor.
Outsourced labor (like tech support) should also face 1000% tariffs. |
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Discolarry
join:2008-08-03
Freeport, NY
| reply to pnh102
People should realize Verizon is a 1+ billion dollar profitable QUARTERLY company 4 many yrs, It can afford to TAKE care of me. This is not GM or Airlines, where my fellow union members did sacrifice their wages/benefits. VZ is extremely profitable, and now with FIOS IN NYC, A CASH COW, and I mean a cash cow. it has the money and I as a 28 yr employee of NYTEL/AT&T/NYNEX/BELL ATLANTIC AND NOW VERIZON, BETTER take care of me instead of giving chairman of the board & 5 other directors 82 Million dollars last yr. Come on people UNIONS has lost ground since Regan fire air traffic controllers & Clinton ok NAFTA. we as THE COMMON WORKER are now paying the price for it. Verizon CATERS TO BIG BUSINESS'S/WALL ST & SHARE HOLDERS, UNIONS CATERS TO THE WORKING MAN. SO IT IS DAVID VZ GOLIATH. I am so upset that the company hired contractors and especially brought out MCI (NOW VERIZON BUSINESS)Verizon busines is non-union people, AND WE HAVE A CONTRACT THAT STATES NEW BUSINESS WORK IS "FOLDED" INTO THE UNION, BUT verizon does not look at it that way. They are breaking a contract & fios installed by contractors, that also is contractual, and they are breaking that. This is stuff "outside" folks don't see/know. The union employee is getting less work, then ask if we wanna leave (makes us an offer.)It is very scary and an omen, UNIONS don't have the bargaining and muscle anymore like we use to. Shit I want to work, I am a damn devoted "working" union man, but Verizon don't want me, so I ain't leaving quietly. Again A BILLION DOLLARS PLUS each quarter in PROFITS. trust me they can afford to spend roughly 3 billion dollars it cost each yr to take care of the union employees which is benefits (100+ billion dollar a yr company). They got the money. & remember I am on the landline side of the house which is shrinking, we know that, but again verizon wireless (which also is not union) made 1.5 million new customers this QUARTER. and on top of that now Verizon brought AL-Tel wireless 10 million customers for 28 BILLION and so stupid is 5 billion is the price & 23 billion of it is 'DEBT" NOW THAT IS A WASTE OF MONEY. so again, if u have 28 billion 2 buy another company, u can take care of me. Verizon has no foot to stand on. it has money and as a 28 union employee I want my piece of it. Absolutely no reason for this bargaining to be so stupidly intense. CWA/IBEW Union employees don't ask for the world, only to be compensated "fairly". Verizon will be for ever NEW YORK TELEPHONE, I cant wait for AT&T to buy Verzion so I can wear my New York Telephone Shirt. Remember history, at disvestire, there were 7 baby bells now there are two (well 3 Qwest) are now left, DO I SEE MO-NO-PO-LY AGAIN???? believe me it will happen... |
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mr man
join:2008-08-02
Denver, CO
| reply to neotorian
Be lucky for what you got. Craft folks make over $22 an hour and higher if you are a tech, plus overtime. Asking for union employees to pay part of your medical bennies is not asking much for the type of work/labor craft folks do.
Many other telcos and unionized employers cut out a lot of those bennies and Verizon will be setting a bad precedence if they give in to the union.
Verizon Wireless is non union and they are carrying the weight of the telco. Line loss means less revenue. Be happy you have a job, but be a little more realistic. Wireless employees are paid less an hour and have to pay for part of their bennies, yet they are securely employed. Outsourcing is a way for the company to count their land line lossess. And we know that is happening now. A strike will not stop that.
Expensive to replace? I think not. There are plenty of skilled contractors out there that can splice, test, answer phones, enter orders and install services that would love to have a stable job and pay into a decent health plan. What some may know in the field on a specific issue can be learned by anyone that puts their mind into it.
Unions act like blankets, all or nothing. This means they protect the very hard workers the same way they protect slackers. I used to be in a Verizon telco area and i can tell you that I have seen some techs out there just leeching, practicing to take on their new Walmart jobs while others should be promoted to mid or high management for their dedication to their hard earned money.
Sure, Mr Ivan and his cronies make an insane amount of money and I bet verizon is like a slew of other companies with slews of CEO's of this and that, making money and readying with their golden parachutes before they are made scapegoats; it is coporate greed at it's best. But, no one will intercede with that. So if the company revenues are down, what make you think that biting the hand that feeds you will cry uncle because of a strike vote? They can turn around and employ from the job pool, pay them less in return for a stable job as easy as 123. Read the news, it has happened before.
Be happy for what you have. Cut your spending and invest..even a pension is not enough 10 to 20 years from now.. |
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hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| reply to Discolarry
they do take care of you already. they pay a part of your health care and they give a job with a raise. If you don't like what they already give you go find another job who will give you want you want. VZ does not owe a dime nor job.
and they do NOT have to take care of YOU, your family nor anyone else who works for them. Their purpose is to service their customers and turn a profit at doing so and put more money back in the company. Not pay you damn greedy ass union employees who think you need to hear $40+ an hour sitting your ass putting a fiber optic line in PVC for 3 hours or taking 8 or more hours to install FiOS when you have 2 others set for install the same day but you don't have to install them becuase the Union says you have such a long period to install each of them; VZ can't do anything to you. I call it BULLSHIT! If you don't like the way comapnies work i suggest you start your own and let your employees become union and start paying what they want plus 80=% in their healthcare. It won't happen you'll be on here bitching about how you hate unions too.
VZ SHOULD LOCK YOUR ASS OUT! KILL THE UNIONS! WE HAVE LABOR LAWS FOR A REASON! UNION'S SUCK! LOCK 'EM OUT VZ! |
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mr man
join:2008-08-02
Denver, CO
| reply to Discolarry
Tell me in your words what do you mean by "fairly"? You don't pay for health care and you make a wage higher than many jobs out there. And sorry, the auto industry was extremely profitable too, and they lost revenues, and they closed plants, and they laid off union workers. Find out what they are doing today? |
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Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Boston, MA | reply to Discolarry
Always something for nothing. Sad. |
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MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| reply to Discolarry
said by Discolarry :People should realize Verizon is a 1+ billion dollar profitable QUARTERLY company 4 many yrs, It can afford to TAKE care of me. This is not GM or Airlines, where my fellow union members did sacrifice their wages/benefits. VZ is extremely profitable, and now with FIOS IN NYC, A CASH COW, and I mean a cash cow. it has the money and I as a 28 yr employee of NYTEL/AT&T/NYNEX/BELL ATLANTIC AND NOW VERIZON, BETTER take care of me instead of giving chairman of the board & 5 other directors 82 Million dollars last yr. Come on people UNIONS has lost ground since Regan fire air traffic controllers & Clinton ok NAFTA. we as THE COMMON WORKER are now paying the price for it. Verizon CATERS TO BIG BUSINESS'S/WALL ST & SHARE HOLDERS, UNIONS CATERS TO THE WORKING MAN. SO IT IS DAVID VZ GOLIATH. I am so upset that the company hired contractors and especially brought out MCI (NOW VERIZON BUSINESS)Verizon busines is non-union people, AND WE HAVE A CONTRACT THAT STATES NEW BUSINESS WORK IS "FOLDED" INTO THE UNION, BUT verizon does not look at it that way. They are breaking a contract & fios installed by contractors, that also is contractual, and they are breaking that. This is stuff "outside" folks don't see/know. The union employee is getting less work, then ask if we wanna leave (makes us an offer.)It is very scary and an omen, UNIONS don't have the bargaining and muscle anymore like we use to. Shit I want to work, I am a damn devoted "working" union man, but Verizon don't want me, so I ain't leaving quietly. Again A BILLION DOLLARS PLUS each quarter in PROFITS. trust me they can afford to spend roughly 3 billion dollars it cost each yr to take care of the union employees which is benefits (100+ billion dollar a yr company). They got the money. & remember I am on the landline side of the house which is shrinking, we know that, but again verizon wireless (which also is not union) made 1.5 million new customers this QUARTER. and on top of that now Verizon brought AL-Tel wireless 10 million customers for 28 BILLION and so stupid is 5 billion is the price & 23 billion of it is 'DEBT" NOW THAT IS A WASTE OF MONEY. so again, if u have 28 billion 2 buy another company, u can take care of me. Verizon has no foot to stand on. it has money and as a 28 union employee I want my piece of it. Absolutely no reason for this bargaining to be so stupidly intense. CWA/IBEW Union employees don't ask for the world, only to be compensated "fairly". Verizon will be for ever NEW YORK TELEPHONE, I cant wait for AT&T to buy Verzion so I can wear my New York Telephone Shirt. Remember history, at disvestire, there were 7 baby bells now there are two (well 3 Qwest) are now left, DO I SEE MO-NO-PO-LY AGAIN???? believe me it will happen... The air traffic controller issue is not relevant. Congress passed a law that made it illegal for the gov't union to strike, to protect the people. Reagan was upholding the law as set forth by Congress.
NAFTA opened up free trade. If American companies have goods to sell, doesn't it make sense to try to be able to sell to as many as possible? That allows a company to grow, hire more employees, who will pay taxes, expanding the tax base, which means more revenue for the gov't...... |
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Shamayim
I already have a Messiah.
Premium
join:2002-09-23
| reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather :Meanwhile as our gov't continues to sell us out to China and Mexico, US standard of living will decline. Don't look now but China already owns us. The "For Sale" sign has already been taken down.
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
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4 edits | reply to MrSpock29
All NAFTA did was send manufacturing jobs out of the country along with the jobs of their suppliers. The ever increasing trade deficit despite the falling dollar PROVES free trade to be a total failure. And it's free trade policies that have our economy in the toilet.
US based business will NEVER be able to compete with slave wages paid overseas. And they'll certainly not compete with nations with no labor standards, no environmental standards and often gov't subsidies.
Free trade isn't fair trade. |
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MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
1 edit | said by Dogfather :All NAFTA did was send manufacturing jobs out of the country along with the jobs of their suppliers. The ever increasing trade deficit despite the falling dollar PROVES free trade to be a total failure. US based business will NEVER be able to compete with slave wages paid overseas. And they'll certainly not compete with nations with no labor standards, no environmental standards and often gov't subsidies. Free trade isn't fair trade. Strongly disagree. A weak dollar is a monetary issue. And now, with a weak dollar, some have speculated that manufacturing would come back into the country.
Joseph Schumpter (late economist) had a phrase, "Gales of Creative Destruction", as economies transitioned from jobs of one type to jobs of another. This country is more service-oriented than it was years ago.
100 or more years ago, I'll bet everyone was saying the same about blacksmiths, who used to be quite prevalent back then. We also heard how computers were going to replace people for work, but instead, we needed far more people to program, fix, and write software for them.
Trade deficits occur for other reasons too. When our economy is stronger, we import more than we export.
Some things might need to be fixed, but NAFTA isn't a failure. Look at the unemployment rate. About 7% when enacted, and bottomed at 3.9% before the late 2000 recession. The Fed used to worry about inflation occurring at 6% unemployment, but was taught the lesson that more people working isn't inflationary.
edit: BTW, look at the chart of the dollar. It's been base-building since February, and has been stronger as of late. Oil is a dollar-denominated asset, so a good part of the rise in prices was due to the dollar index falling from over 120 six years ago, to about 70 earlier this year. With the oil bubble bursting, that will act as a tax cut and economic stimulus, helping strengthen the dollar which is already shown signs of turning around, and that stronger dollar will in turn affect oil prices again. Most people don't realize wholesale gasoline prices have fallen by almost 60 cents in the last couple of weeks, it just isn't all reflected at the pump yet. The dollar is also affected by what other central banks do with their currency. The Euro is way too strong, and the EU has kept rates way too high for what is going on there. |
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Discolarry
join:2008-08-03
Freeport, NY
|  reply to hottboiinnc
YOU SOUND UPSET AT THE COMMON UNION PERSON, BUT THEN AGAIN U AIN'T IN MY SHOES. You would want the same thing. U really distate union man, but that is ok, this is america free speech, i repsect your comments, but also again, U are not in my shoes. so if u got a job, and are paying for your benefits, then DO BAD FOR YOU. and each yr your employer will continually stick it 2 u. Being union ain't that badd. don't be angry, we are just talking... |
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Discolarry
join:2008-08-03
Freeport, NY
| reply to mr man
fair is: when a company is profitable then its own workers should share in the profits. We are only asking for our benefits to remain the same or will of course take more, again realize they have the money. Yes auto was extremely profitable but a company is run by managers, not union/or common workers, i blame the big guys WHO MADE the decision in the auto industry. people really don't realize we are asking for a fair package, not the world. just because people pay for their benefits don't mean we have to. We are extremely profitable and will forever be. it is called MONOPOLY, and thats the way it is and I am in it. Again if u were in my shoes u think differently. I respect your comments. |
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jwersan
R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Ziggy, and Max.
Premium
join:2004-12-20
Port Jefferson Station, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
| reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather :All NAFTA did was send manufacturing jobs out of the country along with the jobs of their suppliers. The ever increasing trade deficit despite the falling dollar PROVES free trade to be a total failure. And it's free trade policies that have our economy in the toilet. US based business will NEVER be able to compete with slave wages paid overseas. And they'll certainly not compete with nations with no labor standards, no environmental standards and often gov't subsidies. Free trade isn't fair trade. Someone who UNDERSTANDS reality...
When NAFTA was first proposed, those involved wanted to change the "F" in it from "free" to "fair", and all the companies screamed bloody blue murder!
The auto industry is in the mess it is in because of MANAGEMENT decisions, and has little to do with anything the unions have negotiated for.
One of the first things the auto industry did after NAFTA was signed, was to close plants in the US and open them in Mexico, all the while telling the unions they had no money to modernise the plants in the US, yet they could build BRAND NEW plants in Mexico. 
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Discolarry
join:2008-08-03
Freeport, NY
| reply to MrSpock29
the air traffic controlers only wanted what they deserved and yes did not have a right 2 strike, but please "protect the people". that is true, but Reagan was purely anti union and pro business, just like Bush. NAFTA IS garbage, the businesses all manufacture in canada/mexico & elsewhere casuse it is easier to pay someone 1.00 or less, yes or less than to pay american $7.00+ with benefits. LOOK AT OUR EXPORTS TO IMPORT RATIOS. we are getting FXXK by our american companies manufacturing good overseas and profitable very handsomely, P.S. Hershey chocolate Bar is not he american bar anymore, it is manufactured in MEXICO... please nafta is crap. we lost out the commen american worker. Again i repsect your comments. |
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jwersan
R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Ziggy, and Max.
Premium
join:2004-12-20
Port Jefferson Station, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
| reply to MrSpock29
said by MrSpock29 :[Look at the unemployment rate. About 7% when enacted, and bottomed at 3.9% before the late 2000 recession. You're being myopic if you are ONLY looking at the percentages of unemployment. Real wages are what you should be looking at and that has been declining for OVER 30 years. When someone loses a 40K job and takes a 30K job, the employment percentages may not change, but that person's real income has decreased...
BTW, other reasons for declines in unemployment are due to people who give up looking, not by them finding a job.
Jobs at Wal-Mart have increased over the past few years, has that had a positive impact on wages?
I doubt it. 
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