dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
58
share rss forum feed


pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA
reply to fonzbear2000

Re: Bandwidth Limits - All discussion here

When you think about it, every other commodity or utility we buy is metered. Water, natural gas, oil, gasoline, electricity, cell phone minutes....

Why do we expect bandwidth to be different?
--
For a list of the ways technology has not made life better, please press 3.



dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

1 recommendation

said by pianotech:

When you think about it, every other commodity or utility we buy is metered. Water, natural gas, oil, gasoline, electricity, cell phone minutes....

Why do we expect bandwidth to be different?
Because, at this point in time, HSI is a luxury.
When it does become a utility, expect metered billing.
My bill will be way less than most other people, I almost look forward to it.
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

said by dadkins:

Because, at this point in time, HSI is a luxury.
When it does become a utility, expect metered billing.
You brought that up in one of the now-closed threads. I disagree with you on the "utility" designation (I think it is), but agree with you that it's a "luxury." In my non-authoritative single-perspective value set, it's about the same as POTS service. And increasing affordable access to broadband is a federal priority, in lip-service if not also in fact.

In that prior message, I gave the example of a street-lighting district. In that example, the prices are fixed. Being a utility doesn't require metered billing. It doesn't make sense to meter street lights.

For certain, technology will continue to get faster, or cheaper, or both. Hopefully that's not debatable. Our various appetites for it might seem like an equalizing factor, but they're volatile between us. They fluctuate among users as gaming gets quite a bit more dynamic, video moves back and forth between streaming and "burst-and-store" over the years, parents monitor their kids by watching live AV streams from devices attached to their clothing, and who knows what else.

I think for that reason alone, this debate will continue. Those that don't use a lot right now will use a lot 5 years from now, and vice versa. Right now, the streetlights are on and I'm paying for them, but someone else is making greater use of them than I am.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More features, more fun, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...

dimitri_

join:2004-11-10
Valencia, CA
reply to pianotech

You are almost correct on the water/gas/oil but you are way off on the cell phone minutes and internet bandwidth!

Cell phone "minutes" has/is/and always will be a scam. The problem is when everyone is doing it and you don't have a choice well...you don't have a choice. So if you want a cell phone, you pay for a minimum usage so to speak. Because if everyone paid only for what they use, the cell phone companies would be making any money.
It doesn't cost any less or any more to the cell phone company whether you talk for 1 minute or 600 minutes a month.
It's not like you are "wearing out" the transmitting tubes

Same thing with bandwidth, 10Kb,10MB or 100GB, it not causing them to "work any harder".

It will be funny if keyboards start having warranty warnings like instead of 1 year warranty, warrantee it for the first 2 million keystrokes or one year, whichever comes first. After all why not, car manufacturers do it by mileage or time.

Everyone tries to do as much as they can get away with.
And that includes both sides

Capping usage at least in principle, when all the providers try to get you to bundle the services, phone/tv/internet seems a most sleazy idea.

Next thing you know they will start filtering content....
Yikes



bondo

@comcast.net
reply to pianotech

said by pianotech:

When you think about it, every other commodity or utility we buy is metered. Water, natural gas, oil, gasoline, electricity, cell phone minutes....

Why do we expect bandwidth to be different?
oh yeah, that's a good comparison. I just love it when the phone, water, gas, electricity decide to shut off and ban me for a year for using too much of it any given month.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

1 recommendation

It is actually a better comparison that you are giving credit for. You pay for gas and water by the cubic foot, and electricity by the kilowatt hour. The more you use, the more you have to pay. If you use more than you can afford to pay for, and fail to pay the bill, you do get cut off.

So what will happen when you are charged by the GB for your Internet use?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum



pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA
reply to dadkins

said by dadkins:

said by pianotech:

When you think about it, every other commodity or utility we buy is metered. Water, natural gas, oil, gasoline, electricity, cell phone minutes....

Why do we expect bandwidth to be different?
Because, at this point in time, HSI is a luxury.

I used to think that, but I'd have to respectfully disagree now. High speed internet is definitely a necessity now. Schools, libraries, hospitals, fire departments, government agencies, banks, Homeland Security, Amber Alert system, banks, etc etc etc all depend on this commodity we call bandwidth now.


pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA
reply to bondo

said by bondo :

said by pianotech:

When you think about it, every other commodity or utility we buy is metered. Water, natural gas, oil, gasoline, electricity, cell phone minutes....

Why do we expect bandwidth to be different?
oh yeah, that's a good comparison. I just love it when the phone, water, gas, electricity decide to shut off and ban me for a year for using too much of it any given month.
I said METERED. METERED. As in, you pay for your usage. The electric company charges you more when you use more electricity and less when you use less. The water company charges you more when you use more electricity and less when you use less.

I'll ask you again: why should we expect bandwidth to be different?
--
For a list of the ways technology has not made life better, please press 3.


FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

said by pianotech:

The water company charges you more when you use more {sic}electricity water and less when you use less.
I don't know about your water company. But mine and all the others I know pay a minimum FEE no matter how much water you use. Even if you use none, you still pay a minimum amount.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to pianotech

said by pianotech:

When you think about it, every other commodity or utility we buy is metered. Water, natural gas, oil, gasoline, electricity, cell phone minutes....

Why do we expect bandwidth to be different?
Because it's not like other commodities. You don't have to extract it, refine it, purify it, manufacture it, etc etc. Once the initial investment is made in equipment, there is negligible cost difference from sending 1 byte of traffic to sending a trillion bytes of traffic.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)


dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

1 recommendation

reply to funchords

The Street Lights can and do use a finite amount of power that is fairly consistent.
Since there isn't an A/C unit or clothes dryer that may get switched on to the same paid circuit as the street lights, the bill is set to a nominal charge - it doesn't vary by much, if at all.
Bad example, sorry my friend.

Me - I use 30-35GB per month - this can vary on a whim.
I have gone days and even weeks without switching on a computer - not a utility.
Power? Of course!
Water? I showered and made coffee - so yeah.
Internet? Nope!
Moms has no interest in the internet.
Moms does use power and water.

Many people don't even have dialup - or own any internet capable device.
It's available more than likely but not necessary.

If you treat it as a utility, that's your choice.
It is not a utility.
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera



dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18
reply to pianotech

said by pianotech:

said by dadkins:

said by pianotech:

When you think about it, every other commodity or utility we buy is metered. Water, natural gas, oil, gasoline, electricity, cell phone minutes....

Why do we expect bandwidth to be different?
Because, at this point in time, HSI is a luxury.

I used to think that, but I'd have to respectfully disagree now. High speed internet is definitely a necessity now. Schools, libraries, hospitals, fire departments, government agencies, banks, Homeland Security, Amber Alert system, banks, etc etc etc all depend on this commodity we call bandwidth now.
Residential broadband is a luxury.
Schools and the like have had a need for communications longer than Joe Six Pack.

Comcast HSI is a residential service.
It is not a utility for homes. Sorry!
Maybe someday, but not at this point in time.
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to dadkins

said by dadkins:

I have gone days and even weeks without switching on a computer - not a utility.
Power? Of course!
Water? I showered and made coffee - so yeah.
Internet? Nope!
Moms has no interest in the internet.
Moms does use power and water.

If you treat it as a utility, that's your choice.
It is not a utility.
I agree with you but a survey by the Pew Internet & American Life Project group says that a majority of people think internet access should be a human right.

»www.informationweek.com/news/int···Internet
Sixty-six percent of Internet stakeholders from government, industry, and society at large favor the establishment of a global Internet Bill of Rights, according to a Pew Internet & American Life Project survey.

Key rights granted under the global Internet Bill of Rights would be freedom of information, freedom of expression, and the right of people to have affordable access.
Full report here:
»www.elon.edu/docs/e-web/predicti···RVEY.pdf

Socialism here we come.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?


dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

1 recommendation

Yeah, there are a few hurdles and speed-bumps to clear before it can be considered a utility or a right.

Internet and High Speed Internet were around for a while - I had no interest in it - no *NEED* for it.

I now use it for a distraction, even entertainment.
A utility? Not exactly.
If I were still able and had a bike, I wouldn't *need* a computer or internet.
I would still need that water and power though.
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera



Johkal
Cool Cat
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-13
Happy Valley
kudos:9

1 recommendation

Absolutely correct; Internet is not a utility.

What do I do with my internet access:
Pay bills through my bank
Buy items from retailers
E-mail
Surf
Help on BBR

What would I do if I didn't have internet access:
Write checks to pay bills
Go to the retailer's stores
Use a phone to call the people, write letters, TXT MSG
Read a book, take a walk, swim, visit more friends, etc
As for helping with BBR; oh well, you're on your own
--
Write me up a 125.......I Can't Drive 55 »redrocker.com/ »cabowabo.com/



RichATL

@zoominternet.net
reply to dadkins

said by dadkins:

A utility? Not exactly.

If I were still able and had a bike, I wouldn't *need* a computer or internet.

I would still need that water and power though.
If one were going to be precise, electricity is not exactly something that is REQUIRED for life. The Amish get along quite well without it. And yet electricity is widely considered to be a "utility".

Is electricity a luxury or a necessity.?


dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

3 edits

said by RichATL :

said by dadkins:

A utility? Not exactly.

If I were still able and had a bike, I wouldn't *need* a computer or internet.

I would still need that water and power though.
If one were going to be precise, electricity is not exactly something that is REQUIRED for life. The Amish get along quite well without it. And yet electricity is widely considered to be a "utility".

Is electricity a luxury or a necessity.?
Another bad example.
The Amish are a small community.
The Amish, some of them at least, have made a choice to not use electricity.
Some Amish communities use trucks.
Trucks use electricity to run, right?
Some Amish do use and rely on electricity.
»pittsburgh.about.com/cs/pennsylv···sh_2.htm

" Electricity is sometimes used in certain situations, such as electric fences for cattle, flashing electric lights on buggies, and heating homes. Windmills are often used as a source of naturally generated electric power in such instances. It is also not unusual to see Amish using such 20th-century technologies as inline skates, disposable diapers and gas barbecue grills, because they are not specifically prohibited by the Ordnung. "


--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


RichATL

@zoominternet.net

The point is that you can get along in life without electricity, even if YOU think it is a necessity and would categorize it as a utility.



dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

1 edit

It's not that *I* categorize it - I'm nobody!
*THEY*, the city municipalities, the Government, have classified water and electricity as utilities.

Remember, if *I*, the nobody, claims that internet is a utility, that doesn't make it so, does it?

You can dig a well, so much for water, right?
Is that on me too?
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera



RichATL

@zoominternet.net

said by dadkins:

It's not that *I* catagorize it - I'm nobody!
*THEY*, the city municipalities, the Government, have classified water and electricity as utilities.

Remember, if *I*, the nobody, claims that internet is a utility, that doesn't make it so, does it?

You can dig a well, so much for water, right?
Is that on me too?
You are certainly arguing as though internet service should not be categorized as a utility. Somewhere along the way, electricity went from being a luxury to being a necessity (ie utility). Internet service will follow the same path.

By the way...if you are nobody...and we all know that nobody's perfect...does that make you perfect...?...


Johkal
Cool Cat
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-13
Happy Valley
kudos:9

1 edit

1 recommendation

said by RichATL :

said by dadkins:

It's not that *I* catagorize it - I'm nobody!
*THEY*, the city municipalities, the Government, have classified water and electricity as utilities.

Remember, if *I*, the nobody, claims that internet is a utility, that doesn't make it so, does it?

You can dig a well, so much for water, right?
Is that on me too?
You are certainly arguing as though internet service should not be categorized as a utility. Somewhere along the way, electricity went from being a luxury to being a necessity (ie utility). Internet service will follow the same path.

dadkins See Profile already stated this!

About »Re: Bandwidth Limits - All discussion here

"Comcast HSI is a residential service.
It is not a utility for homes. Sorry!
Maybe someday, but not at this point in time."
--
Write me up a 125.......I Can't Drive 55 »redrocker.com/ »cabowabo.com/


dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to RichATL

said by RichATL :

said by dadkins:

It's not that *I* catagorize it - I'm nobody!
*THEY*, the city municipalities, the Government, have classified water and electricity as utilities.

Remember, if *I*, the nobody, claims that internet is a utility, that doesn't make it so, does it?

You can dig a well, so much for water, right?
Is that on me too?
You are certainly arguing as though internet service should not be categorized as a utility. Somewhere along the way, electricity went from being a luxury to being a necessity (ie utility). Internet service will follow the same path.

By the way...if you are nobody...and we all know that nobody's perfect...does that make you perfect...?...
LMAO!
I never said that Internet shouldn't be classified as a utility - re read *ALL* of my posts.
I stated that it is NOT a utility. Simply because it has not been deemed as one by the powers that be.

I look forward to Internet being a utility!
At This Time, it is not.
Was never my decision, was it?

Tell me, how long was electricity around before *THEY* decided to label it as a utility?

Me? Perfect? F*** no! No one is! No one ever has been either.
Facts are facts though... Someone, somewhere(not me!) classified our utilities *AS* utilities.
When *THEY* label internet as a utility, then I suppose it will be.

Can you, or anyone else, show me where the Government has classified internet as a utility?
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA
reply to FFH

said by FFH:

said by pianotech:

The water company charges you more when you use more {sic}electricity water and less when you use less.
I don't know about your water company. But mine and all the others I know pay a minimum FEE no matter how much water you use. Even if you use none, you still pay a minimum amount.
That goes without saying. But after that minimum fee, you pay based on your usage.


pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA
reply to KrK

said by KrK:

said by pianotech:

When you think about it, every other commodity or utility we buy is metered. Water, natural gas, oil, gasoline, electricity, cell phone minutes....

Why do we expect bandwidth to be different?
Because it's not like other commodities. You don't have to extract it, refine it, purify it, manufacture it, etc etc. Once the initial investment is made in equipment, there is negligible cost difference from sending 1 byte of traffic to sending a trillion bytes of traffic.
Disagree. You DO have to manufacture it. Infrastructure doesn't just appear out of nowhere. And infrastructure needs to be maintained. Lines, servers, switches deteriorate over time.


pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA
reply to dadkins

quote:
The Amish are a small community.
You obviously are not from Pennsylvania.
--
For a list of the ways technology has not made life better, please press 3.


pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA

1 edit
reply to Johkal

said by Johkal:

Absolutely correct; Internet is not a utility.

What do I do with my internet access:
Pay bills through my bank
Buy items from retailers
E-mail
Surf
Help on BBR

What would I do if I didn't have internet access:
Write checks to pay bills
Go to the retailer's stores
Use a phone to call the people, write letters, TXT MSG
Read a book, take a walk, swim, visit more friends, etc
As for helping with BBR; oh well, you're on your own
I'm not really following your argument. If I understand correctly, you seem to be saying that Internet access is not a utility since you can find other ways to do thing you otherwise do on it.

Using that logic, municipal water is not a utility because you can dig a well or buy bottled water or drink Coke. Electricity is not a utility because you can generate your own.

??


dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18
reply to pianotech

said by pianotech:

quote:
The Amish are a small community.
You obviously are not from Pennsylvania.
You obviously are not from the rest of the planet.
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA

said by dadkins:

said by pianotech:

quote:
The Amish are a small community.
You obviously are not from Pennsylvania.
You obviously are not from the rest of the planet.
Good, we've established that you are not from where I am from, and I am not from where you are from.

Where I am from the Amish are a very large community. Truly statewide. On any given day driving through the state you will encounter many Amish buggies and farms. Just point out to you that just because your experience says that the Amish are a small community, I would say that there often is more to an issue than your experience of it.


pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA
reply to dadkins

But we are getting way off course. I still have not heard a good reason why net users shouldn't be charged according to the bandwidth they use.
--
For a list of the ways technology has not made life better, please press 3.



dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18
reply to pianotech

You don't grasp that NO individual can decide what is or is not classified as a utility.
No one is forcing you to have water or electricity, but it usually does have to be offered to the curb.

I have a friend that has water at the road/curb(no actual curbs on his road, but you get the idea) - he uses his well.
The fact is, the water is offered as a utility because it is a utility.
Electricity, yeah! Duh!

No internet or cable until he requested it.
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera