ErikVKing
Erik the Viking
Premium
join:2008-06-19
Davenport, IA
 ·Mediacom
| reply to Dropper
Re: [Rant] Ridiculous Overgear Expectations
I know I tout EQ1 a lot in here, but to me a good solution to this would be a PvP version of the AAs (Alternate Advancement points):
In EQ1 you could put points in the AA system and get extra stats, extra abilities, extra buffs, etc. for your time spent killing this or that mob, etc.
If they gave something of the sort to PvP players in WoW, you could see some more benefits over and above the full S4/Guardians/etc. and perhaps these people who "have nowhere to go" with their 1900+ ratings would stay there to earn the extra abilities, and perhaps even titles.
Also with the AAs, were LAAs (Leadership AAs) where a group leader could have a wide variety of extras they could do for their group. Give someone "lead" in a team and let them accrue extra goodies for your team and you could see some more fun in the Arenas.
IDK *what* would be the perfect solution, but with so many people complaining, why the hell hasn't Bliz pulled their heads out of their asses and seen the light?
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"I am Jack's utter lack of surprise." |
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Garbs
Mudhole? Slimy? My home this is.
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-27
Garden State |  reply to Dropper
Interesting point. I'm sure that's true, too. |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
1 edit | reply to drew
The only analogy I can apply to this situation so that those who exclusively PvE understand goes something like this.
You started Kara, you have your key, you successfully completed the pull timer on Attumen, you walked round the corner and found Kael waiting for you.
The skill level of a PvP player who earns full S4 is the equivalent of a PvE player who has their vials and moved on to successfully down Illidan.
If you were are someone who's done this, would you be satisfied doing nothing but lower Kara since last June? Because that's the equivalent of what these people are doing. The reasons I can only begin to guess, something in the mentality of a person more suited to playing FPS games I suppose. I still think part of it is when you peak at a rating of say 1900, know you will get no further upgrades and already have the best title you're likely to earn, you are left with the choice of facing top arena players for little or no reward or restarting and having fun beating on the easy to kill.
In other words if an absurd rating system didn't prevent them from completing their gear, they might decide earning more pts in the 1800s to get the next item was a better choice than stealing candy from babies because they have no more upgrades they can feasibly get. |
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ErikVKing
Erik the Viking
Premium
join:2008-06-19
Davenport, IA
·Mediacom
| reply to Garbs
I don't remember the thread I was ranting about this in, but the same crap happened to my friend and I in our arenas. We're still sitting at 1,031 in our team (haven't played in weeks - friend's tour was up, so now we're not on the same time schedule ... plus, we kind of gave up on the whole thing).
Our idea was to play 10 losses, get points for the gloves, BG for Guardian, maybe BG for some S2 while we got more Arena, and then reset to 1500 as we each got better pieces. This way maybe we'd have a fighting chance of climbing UP the ladder instead of falling down on our asses.
Maybe when I get back to the States, but that'll be WotLK time ... so who knows.
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"I am Jack's utter lack of surprise." |
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ErikVKing
Erik the Viking
Premium
join:2008-06-19
Davenport, IA | reply to drew
Agreed! They would just have to deduct honor if you die, add more if you get a kill, and even more if you did X% of the damage, or healed the guy that was whacking on the toon that was killed X%. |
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Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
| reply to drew
i think pvp would be more fun if stats got averaged across all players in the BG. less getting mowed by that WSG team in full S4 just because you are just starting to get parts of S2
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports |
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Garbs
Mudhole? Slimy? My home this is.
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-27
Garden State
1 edit | reply to drew
We lost close to 19 points, actually. It was absurd. The Lock on their team was in Full S4 gear.
It's disheartening, as my teammates and I love Arenas. I hope they come up with a solution that makes sense. So far, this has been nothing but another failed experiment.
Good points raised in this thread, thank you.
Low Self Esteem Support Group will meet Thursday at 7 PM. Please use the back door.
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs:
·wavebroadband
| reply to DownLow
Welcome to Arena.
I wonder, how many points did you lose on that particular match? I would think the system should say 'these teams are significantly different in gear levels, so I'll only take 5 points from the poor team'
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Come play Mafia! |
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DownLow
Nope...I Got Nothing
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Long Island | reply to Thaler
Yay for more wonderful arena matching last night...my 1550 team (at the time) gets matched against a newly formed team, with at least one player in full s4 gear!
/sigh
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Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult! |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs: | reply to Thaler
I have high hopes for Lake Wintergrasp. |
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Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| reply to drew
Heh...I'd definately have to agree. The more Blizzard has mucked with Arena over the course of TBC, the more borked the system has become. Almost every single change they've done to items/ratings/sytem that they've done for beginning/average players have come back to bite that playerbase in the ass. In fact, I'm almost worried at this point as to what they'll do to revamp Arena for beginning players. Maybe make every piece of gear require PR? Issue the title "Fresh Meat" to those not in full Arena gear?
Who knows. Maybe they'll actually fix something this time. |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
| reply to AB_Mobile
The only way a rating system can even semi-work is if you were required to maintain it in order to use the gear you earned. Restart and you lose your advantage until you re-earn your team rating. That takes care of people buying pts to some extent as they would have to convince the team they bought to keep them. I suppose they could maintain their rent, but I reckon it would cut into the numbers a bit.
But overall any system can be manipulated and both rating systems they've tried have been proven to be a disaster to most players.
I don't care if I don't get upgrades until my skill earns them, I do care if I have to face people using bought upgrades with no more skill than me or people who should never be allowed back into my skill bracket after they've worked their way out of it. |
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Hazmat
join:2007-07-10
Laveen, AZ
| reply to drew
said by drew  :Wow, that's a great idea. There's a 'vendor' in some PVP area. I go there and 'outfit' my character in what I'd like to see her in next time I go into an arena. I go and FIGHT in the arena in that gear, and am at the same level as the other guys gear wise, but since I suck at playing, I'm going to get stomped. That's fine, since the problem I have is lack of skill, not lack of skill and lack of gear. The needed progression is then being able to buy that gear and use it in World PVP, PVE and BGs. The point of the 'vendor' is to allow customization so that I can use spell haste gear if I want it. Or I can be spec'd resto and use boomkin gear. That's stupid, but it could be done! Wow, A+ idea. Drew, you went my idea one better.
Now, not only do you have a playing field that revolves around skill, not gear, but also you get to vary your gear to match spec and situations. It's a virtual closet for awesomness, that you can start bringing with you to sever wide as you progress and fine tune.
Good job  |
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AB_Mobile
@spcsdns.net
| reply to Dropper
Barring some OMFG awesome gameplay/PvP in WotLK, if the arena system is as borked as it is now, I'll just as soon stop playing than buy my way into functional gameplay. Sorry, but having to pay gold to work around a failed system just really isn't a solution in my eyes. That just treats the symptoms of a broken system, rather than have Blizzard actually fixing the damn thing.
Not everyone starts off as a PvP ace to the game. Trying and rewarding those who try is what the PvP reward system should be about. But, when there's no real viable means of progression, the insentive to even try and train/progress dies as well. |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
4 edits | reply to drew
Ok I will. I started a new team, 1500 rating, with two others. 2 of us had mostly S2, one was about 1/2 geared in pve blues / greens. We naturally expected to lose, this was for practice.
We met one team 4 times that had at least 2 people in full S4. Not partial S4 with S3 or S2 shoulders. Full S4. Weapons, shoulders, everything. After 2 matches SSPVP showed me they were at 1560, we were at 1470. We met them twice more.
We then started meeting teams with only 4/5 S4, and eventually won a couple against teams that should have been at our level, that is those still wearing S2 shoulders and no gear that didn't require a rating above 1600. We were below 1400 before we met a team that should have been in the 1500-1600 ratings.
Kudos to Blizzard who invented a system of guaranteeing the new customers they got over the summer would never get beyond a 1600 rating unless they were exceptional at pvp or had the gold to buy their way to a level playing field. So much for ratings stopping people from buying arena pts, it actually had the opposite effect.
This kind of imbalance never happened to me when I started playing in the middle of S2. It didn't really happen much in S3 either, because you could still reach 4/5 S3 and therefore fight your way tooth and nail to a 1700+ rating. But when nearly all gear required a rating the balance left the game completely. All it took was a few idiots to realise that restarting guaranteed some easy kills and the tradition of ganking new arena players was born.
edit
And buying my way to a level playing field is exactly what I'll be doing if I find the same crap at level 80. I get to start at the beginning of a season so I should get some rated gear on my own, but I refuse to accept a system of artificially lowering my rating below my skill level.
If I'm geared equally and lose this is fine. Even if it's because of class imbalance I can accept it. But if it's because I meet a rogue with 40-60 more agility than me, because his skill got him to a high rating and he decided he prefers an easy life in the 1500s, screw that. |
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Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA | reply to DownLow
I've seen a S4 rogue w/ dual warglaives when I was 1450-1500 in the 2s. Top that. |
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DownLow
Nope...I Got Nothing
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Long Island
| reply to drew
said by drew :That's the whole idea of the player matching, however it's been my experience that it's a whole lot of crap. Last week I was trying to roll my face across my keyboard (I'm a resto druid) with a ret pally in 2s. When he wasn't being a complete moron, we did OK. However, I found that in the 1485-1560 area, we found several teams with S3 3/5 and like S4 2/5 with the S4 ranged/idol/whatever. Considering I'm rockin part S1 and part S2 with 1 S3 item and some PVE epics and my buddy has mostly S2 from honor, that seemed unfair. You want unfair....how's this for an example of the broken PVP matching system.
Last week on my 3s, around the 1560's, matched up against a rogue, priest, warrior team (I think that is what they were). They destroyed us in literally 15 secs. Turns out according to the armory that the rogue has a 2200+ 2v2 PR and is like the 6th or 7th ranked arena team on their sever (he also was using the legendary warglave). I know this doesn't happen often, but really... |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs:
·wavebroadband
| reply to brrock
That's the whole idea of the player matching, however it's been my experience that it's a whole lot of crap.
Last week I was trying to roll my face across my keyboard (I'm a resto druid) with a ret pally in 2s. When he wasn't being a complete moron, we did OK. However, I found that in the 1485-1560 area, we found several teams with S3 3/5 and like S4 2/5 with the S4 ranged/idol/whatever. Considering I'm rockin part S1 and part S2 with 1 S3 item and some PVE epics and my buddy has mostly S2 from honor, that seemed unfair. |
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brrock
join:2008-09-12
Port Huron, MI
| reply to drew
Or if they want make it tiered where the lower tier gets crappier gear, but everyone in that tier has the same gear. For example you start in S1 but once you hit 1700 you can go for s2 gear, but only with others in S2 gear. This way the better players can play with better gears, but the gear is always on a even playing field. I am sure some people will whine and complain but those people can take the weapons they get from points and gank in the isle or whatever world pvp zone there is. I know it would make things more enjoyable for not just new players getting into pvp, but also character rerolls and alts. |
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Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| reply to drew
said by drew :You can get your fill of undergeared nubs in World PVP (Lake Wintergrasp) and in BGs. True, but that's not what opponents of that idea will see. Grinding new/undergeared players into the dirt has been a long running theme in all MMORPG PvP. It'd take one hell of a revolution to offset the core base of thinking. |
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