gmracing
join:2000-12-01
Illinois
|  More CPE stuff
What I believe I need is a DSSS client with an ethernet port that would allow for hubs, switches and routers in the customer premise.
Do you all have any ideas or suggestions as to what AP/bridge I might try? The Wipop is an AP-1000 / COR running in AP mode for client connections.
Thanks again to all of you...MK | |
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 pvbbdotnet
join:2001-04-12
Fairfield, CA | Re: More CPE stuff Have u looked at the Karlnet 802.11b compatible stuff? They make firware that fits on an Rg1000 that turns it into bridging CPE. | |
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aldonorth
join:2001-04-21
Carlisle, AR
| Orinoco Ethernet Converters and Apple Airports are what I have seen used. ECs only handle 2 meg and according to some are being phased out. Karlnet doesn't support ECs so we are about to change all of them out to RG-1000s. Karlnet does support the Airport and it operates at 11 meg. | |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| We're considering using RG-1000 with Karlnet too. I've heard of a nice unit for about $350 that runs Power over Ethernet and includes the radio card and RG-1000 guts in a NEMA-type box. Only thing to add is the antenna.
HTH!
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| tenspeed
join:2001-12-15
Harrington, DE | Re: More CPE stuff We're running into the same problem here with CPE options.
Have you tested this unit config?
Tenspeed
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Re: More CPE stuff Not yet, tenspeed. I'm still on the fence whether we should go with a DSSS-based solution in Richmond (it's a good size metropolitan area so I'm very concerned about interference) like Orinoco or with an FHSS solution like Cirronet. The thing about Cirronet is that it only allows speeds up to 920kbps and is only USB compatible for now. That currently means no Mac or Linux support.
The plus, though, is that it's only $370 for all the CPE and is entirely customer installable, i.e. no truckroll, i.e. no setup fees.
Gotta make a decision soon though because Excite@Home is shutting off Comcast's network on the Southside at the end of the month and Comcast is rushing to move their subs to their own network. With all the problems the other @Home people have been having with these moves, I'm anticipating demand for our service to increase significantly.
Anyway, have a good one!
K.
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| | | tenspeed
join:2001-12-15
Harrington, DE
| Re: More CPE stuff We in the process of setting several area's and the common complaint is the CPE cost is to high. They love the service once they get on.
Also they truck rolls are getting out of hand.
I've looked at all kinds of setups, but I want to stay with the Orinoco solutions, it at all possible. I have to much invested in equipment to change mid stream.
Tell me a little about your setup.
tenspeed
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Re: More CPE stuff Well, tenspeed, fortunately, we don't have too many customers on our current Alvarion BAII setup so it won't be too much to redeploy with Orinoco or Cirronet or whatever else we're looking at.
I still love the performance of the Alvarion gear but the CPE is simply too high.
I'm actually working with a gentleman who offers the RG-1000 in the NEMA box for about $350 apiece. But it runs Karlnet's client software so our entire infrastructure would have to be Karlnet driven. Adds a bit more cost to the infrastructure but it's worth it to me since it also offers bandwidth management, a higher level of security control and more. Of course, if we go with a straight 802.11b network, we can add a bandwidth management tool such as YDI's solution.
The biggest concern for us is if a DSSS-based network can handle the good sized metropolitan area we're deploying in. That's why we're looking at Cirronet too.
HTH!
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| | | | | tenspeed
join:2001-12-15
Harrington, DE
| Re: More CPE stuff Go wireless,
I've looked at quite a few setup, about the only one I haven't tried is the YDI etherant setup. It's a bit pricey.
But I'm still looking. I can't justify ordering a kit all the time to play with it. I've got enough in my stock pile now.
Is anyone here using the YDI kit?
tenspeed
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dongato17
VIP
join:2000-07-28
Atlanta, GA
| Hey Kory,
Have you thought about making your own rg1000/karlnet/nema enclosure? Methinks it would be pretty cheap. Plus you could put a router? between two of them, put a directional antenna on one and an omni on the other, set them to different channels and set up your own little "routing" node to build out your network.... Just a thought. If you were strategic about where you put your repeater nodes, then it could save you some infrastructure [read tower] costs in the long run....
-Hal | |
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
|  Re: More CPE stuff
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| aldonorth
join:2001-04-21
Carlisle, AR
| RG-1000 The RG-1000s may be getting phases out for the 1100s? I just bought 20 of them for $59 each. According to Winncom, the 1100s have DSL modem in them instead of 56K modems. I bought some up since the modems don't really mean anything to me anyway. There may be some more cheapies out there for a while? | |
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Dirk Daring
join:2000-08-03
Ashburn, VA
| Have you tried looking at the YDI EtherAnt?
It has a card installed inside a 18dbi flat panel, 50 feet of outdoor rj45 cable (powered). They will give you a break on price if you order 100+. $400 isn't bad for 100 of em.
We have been looking at it for our community project.
»www.ydi.com/etherant.asp
Dirk
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The YDI EtherAnt is the latest product in the Go Wireless Data WiFi Compatible product line! It features a Wireless Ethernet Converter with a YDI Diamond WLAN card built into an 18dBi flat panel antenna. Quickly and easily connect a PC, Internet Appliance or router at your subscriber's location without installing any drivers and without opening the PC!
By using the YDI RS-1 Router (or other similar device) the EtherAnt can provide Wireless Internet Access subscribers that have computers on a LAN.
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs: | Re: More CPE stuff Just to clarify, Dirk, it sounds like if you order 100+ of the EtherAnt, that's $400 apiece, not for the entire lot.
Still, that's not a bad price for the entire set up.
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Dirk Daring
join:2000-08-03
Ashburn, VA | Re: More CPE stuff heh $400 for the lot --- Don't we wish!
Of course $400 each. 
Dirk | |
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woodix
join:2002-01-05
Atlanta, GA
| Glad somebody cranked up a thread on this one! I'm wrangling with this end to and it feels like I'm just hitting my head against the wall. I want to keep CPE price low (doesn't everyone) to be competitive with other solutions in the area (in case they try to increase service area) and keep the install as low impact as possible. It seems like the YDI solution is the best out of box. I'm a bit turned off by Karlnet b/c the drivers are only available for MS operating systems. Even if 95% of the world uses it, I don't and I know many others who don't either (but that's another thread).
woodix | |
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
|  Re: More CPE stuff
P.S.Sorry-just had to get that off my mind-I wont rant and rave for awhile!!;)
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| | tenspeed
join:2001-12-15
Harrington, DE | Re: More CPE stuff Superdog1,
what are you paying for CPE equipment? and is it FSSS equipment?
Tenspeed
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
| Re: More CPE stuff
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Did I Say That? | |
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| | | | tenspeed
join:2001-12-15
Harrington, DE
| Re: More CPE stuff Tim, is the Raylink equipment Fsss or Dsss. Where getting ready to deploy in a new area and I need distance in some cases?
Anyone else had good results with raylink?
Jay
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA | Re: More CPE stuff
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Did I Say That? | |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Ahhh...thx much for clarifying, Tim. It's very much appreciated.
And, you're totally right about the backhaul. One's network is only going to be as fast as their backhaul, at best. That's why I've figured on putting in a 10Mbps WMUX Tsunami for our backhaul out to the tower instead of a 45Mbps for now. Saves about $6k. And, if we're running DSSS out there, we'll never use the whole 10Mbps. We'll upgrade as we grow, of course, since we're tapped into two T3's right now as it is.
As far as using Raylink for a business install, you could probably save yourself some support costs and headaches by running a Netgear router or something. Just an idea. Either way is certainly cheaper than going with Breezecom (which you'd only see 1Mbps of throughput anyway instead of 2Mbps of throughput with an all Raylink solution)
Actually, I might just consider using Raylink in town!  (hint, hint, Tim!)
Thx again for the input! 
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Re: More CPE stuff I got kind of lucky, GPrix2K. We're playing $250 per month for a port right on a Cisco switch that's connected directly to a Cisco router with a T3 backed up by another T3 for redundancy and load balancing. We're paying an additional $5 per month per Gb.
HTH!
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Re: More CPE stuff At the risk of going off topic, something you might consider, GPrix2K, is partnering with the local governments to see if they have any towers and/or excess bandwidth you could use to provide access to residents while providing access to government buildings, vehicles, etc.
One of the names of this game is partnering, IMHO.
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cmaenginsb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA
| Kory, I'm now working with a wireless ISP just North of LA now and I have to say DSSS can have major problems in areas with a lot of 2.4Ghz traffic. (This does not neccessarily mean Metro areas alone, as we've found intermittant 2.4 Ghz signals on almost every military base.)
The current network is all DSSS and works well most of the time, we have to use a lot of highly directional antennas to miss the radio farms which teem with 2.4Ghz.
I'm not sure given a large amount of 2.4 GHz noise that even a FH unit will work in all cases.
As to CPE while it's expensive, we are using Cisco workgroup bridges for our customers (most of them are businesses and can afford the cost.) We've been looking at single board computers running BSD or Linux as replacements which can offer everything that Karlnet does for less.
We figure we could have a working CPE for about $350 to $400 including radio.
I use a Cisco aironet Access point as a poor mans spectrum analyzer (you can put it in a mode where it gives your carrier busy and noise levels for every DSSS channel) and we've got an area with high noise on all channels. | |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Re: More CPE stuff Very cool input, cmaenginsb. Thx much!
We'd probably be okay deploying DSSS in the city, but I'd be concerned about having the network go down from time to time due to all the other 2.4GHz AP's in the area. I'd hate to invest a lot of money into a DSSS infrastructure only to find it wouldn't perform as we needed it to.
I actually started researching Cisco because I'm impressed with their 100mW bridges and AP's. But, yeah, residential subs couldn't afford the CPE.
As far as the single board computers, I'd like to consider doing the same thing and run Mikrotik or something. That way we could include not only Windows users but Linux and Mac's too; something you can't do with Karlnet, unfortunately.
Is the solution you're thinking of utilize power over Ethernet in a NEMA box? Would it include the antenna and cabling?
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dongato17
VIP
join:2000-07-28
Atlanta, GA
| Re: More CPE stuff said by korym:
As far as the single board computers, I'd like to consider doing the same thing and run Mikrotik or something. That way we could include not only Windows users but Linux and Mac's too; something you can't do with Karlnet, unfortunately.
Hey Kory,
What do you mean about not being able to support linux or macs with karlnet? wouldn't it just be an ethernet port if you used something like an rg1000 running karlnet?
Confused,
Hal | |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Re: More CPE stuff said by dongato17:
Hey Kory,
What do you mean about not being able to support linux or macs with karlnet? wouldn't it just be an ethernet port if you used something like an rg1000 running karlnet?
Confused,
Hal
Actually, Hal, I just got word today that Karlnet will support Macs and Linux via Ethernet! I think I was getting confused about a USB port (been a long week already!)
Later!
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cmaenginsb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA
| Kory: What we're looking at would be a low end single board computer with a PCMCIA slot and built in ethernet in a NEMA 3X or better box. By using PCMCIA we can choose any PCMCIA radio (FHSS or DSSS) as the situation requires.
Cisco boxes actually use a similiar design. The radio portion of their boxes are simply LMC350 PC cards (These cards have dual MMCX connectors).
We would use power over ethernet to get power up to the boxes with little fuss and then use voltage requlators to step power down to whatever voltage we need.
I feel we could get a sub $500 CPE cost including antenna and mounting hardware. This is still alot, but is lower than the solution we are using now. Since we target mostly businesses they are willing to pay for the higher CPE cost. | |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs: | Re: More CPE stuff Sounds very similar to what we're looking at, cmaenginsb. Excellent info! Thx much!
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odnc$
join:2002-01-08
Richmond, VA
| On the single board computer question.
Has any one considered QNX or EmbeddedLinux?
With an off the shelf pc, packed into a weather tight enclosure, you must deal with a floppy or hard drive, which is another point of failure.
Intel has a specification called PXE where the bios boots from the network using dhcp and grabs the OS from a boot server.
»www.linuxdevices.com describes a diskless wan router | |
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drjim
Premium,MVM
join:2000-06-13
Torrance, CA
clubs:
| Actually, there's an adapter available which will let you plug Flash Memory cards directly into the IDE port. If your SBC has an IDE port, you're dancin'. Check out »www.tapr.org for more info. There may be other products like this, but I know these work. We use them in the Amateur Radio Packet Network, up on cold, nasty mountain tops, where you don't want electromechanical devices if you can avoid the.
drjim
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odnc$
join:2002-01-08
Richmond, VA | Re: More CPE stuff Tasty stuff, reminds me of alohanet in hawaii
and your correct, few things are worse than a 4am service call in freezing rain. | |
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odnc$
join:2002-01-08
Richmond, VA
| One more thing, environmental protection.
Since we're discussing some outdoor solutions, especially microprocessors mounted near antennae may, I humbly suggest a peek at the Bellcore 1089 standard for electrostatic discharge before a system wide roll-out. (The local WISP here, FrontierBroadBand takes earthing rather seriously, so I thought I'd mention it.) | |
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gmracing
join:2000-12-01
Illinois
| Thanks for all of the responses...
Based on what I read here my best options are RG1000s - RG1100s and Orinoco ethernet adapters. For those of you running Karlnet Turbocell to support the AP-1000/COR and the RG-1000 client can you describe for me the basic licensing and pricing structure. On the Karlnet website it basically reads like the Orinoco COR>>ROR>>ORC structure simply renamed. How many clients will a host AP support given the licensing model?
-As I have not used the RG1000 can you confirm for me that it does have an ethernet port to essentially act as a bridge to an ethernet LAN from a host AP-1000/COR.
-Finally, can anyone tell me why an 802.11b device designed to be interoperable with other 802.11b devices won't communicate with each-other. For example - My home LAN currently uses a Linksys BEFW11S4 wireless access point / DSL router. The AP works well communicating with Orinoco PCMCIA silver cards. I attempted to use the Linksys AP as a wireless client to a Orinoco AP-1000 to test if it may work as a CPE option...It does not. I figured it wouldn't but I am not certain as to why. Is there proprietary code? If so why does the Linksys AP work with the Orinoco silver as a client but not when the card is in an AP-1000 as host?
What I am really driving at is - are all of the other DSSS products out there...Buffalo, D-Link etc, etc unable to act as the CPE client with ethernet support other than the 3 Lucent products listed above?
Thanks again...
BTW... my 3 new Superpass test antennas arrived yesterday- a 15dBi 90* sector, 14dBi panel and a 13dBi panel. John is a good guy...
I also received a spankin new AP-1000 that is ready for the COR software upgrade as soon as initial testing is complete. Just waiting on an additional 2 50' LMR-400s and some Orinoco pig-tail jumpers that are scheduled to arrive tomorrow.
I too am addicted | |
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gmracing
join:2000-12-01
Illinois
| Good links Kory...
OK, I am with you on the quality issue. For the record, my AP of choice and the one I am using for testing is the Orinoco AP-1000 as the host interface. As I get further along I will likely upgrade the AP-1000 to a COR using the Agere software available for this purpose.
The reason I am spending so much time on this is CPE costs. This is a critical component of my business plan and I am looking at all possible CPE solutions to add value to the business as well as my potential customers. A single USB interface for example, while cost effective is quite limited in what it can do for customers with multiple PCs
Ken, If I understand you correctly the AP/CPE unit requires bridging mode in order to work as described, so perhaps the WAP11 would work where the 11S4 will not. My approach to quality or value is to take all reasonable inputs and then prove to myself if it will work or not. My personal experience with Linksys gear (for home use) has been nothing but positive. I use both an SR41 Router and 11S4 Wireless router here and have recommended the 11S4 to others who have also had very good results.
Is it safe to say that an AP that supports bridging will likely work as a CPE option with the AP-1000?
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"If cards on ORs are configured as AP's then they talk to customer equipment but not if the OR's are in bridged (slave/master) modes". --
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Got it - Is this true also? The only way to use the ORC is to run one or both of the AP cards in COR mode. If you run it in AP mode then the value of upgrading to the COR is limited only to the Point to Point functionality that allows a COR to support 1-16 RORs. The other principle reason for running a COR is that it fully supports 32 ORCs providing for user authentication, bandwidth management, air collision avoidance technology, etc. To me there is value in this but it has it's draw backs in that the (ORC) client software must run on a PC thus taking me right back to installing the PC card via an adapter and running the cable up to the roof top antenna with no ethernet option.
Thanks much...MK
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| aldonorth
join:2001-04-21
Carlisle, AR
| Re: More CPE stuff We have a network made up of 9 CORs which provide our wireless backbone as well as APs for broadcasting to customers. We only use CORs because they can do everything RORs can do plus more. We have COR slots configured as CORs, RORs, and APs. In most situations, where we have two CORs at each location, they have the RJ-45 ports set to bridge mode. Usually, the B slots are set as APs and the A slots are set to master or slave, depending on which is necessary.
A COR can handle more PtP clients than an ROR. They are only about $200 more so they are all we use.
For CPE we use USB client, ECs, and are beginning to use Apple Airport because they handle 11 meg as opposed to the 2 meg ECs. We really use USB for single computer and Airport for networks. We spent 8 months installing PCMCIA cards and dealing with resource conflicts so short of a laptop, we do not do that anymore. | |
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gmracing
join:2000-12-01
Illinois | Re: More CPE stuff Great info aldonorth. Looks like I need to investigate the Apple Airport option. Have you decided what you are going to do with the Ethernet converters that you pull? I may be interested in a few of them so let me know...
Thanks...MK | |
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