Steve
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| reply to usa2k
Re: [Chat] C++, Thinking out loud ...
said by usa2k  : I've been conditioned by those I've known, that MS is the evil empire - so why buy into their system and feed it further? Whatever you think of Microsoft, C# is a kick-ass language surrounded by a tremendous library environment - it's exceptionally rich (hey, extension methods alone are worth the cost of admission).
And once you use LINQ you won't ever again say that Microsoft has never innovated.
Steve — C programmer since 1981, C++ since 1990, C# since 2005
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| Thanks Steve. Your opinion and many other like Pete's are highly valued by me.
Excluding Windows is likely the same as avoiding major highways. I need to adjust my thinking to what can do the most in our current age. Plenty of pioneers to play the rebel out there already. 
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| reply to Steve
said by Steve :said by usa2k : I've been conditioned by those I've known, that MS is the evil empire - so why buy into their system and feed it further? Whatever you think of Microsoft, C# is a kick-ass language surrounded by a tremendous library environment - it's exceptionally rich (hey, extension methods alone are worth the cost of admission). And once you use LINQ you won't ever again say that Microsoft has never innovated. Steve — C programmer since 1981, C++ since 1990, C# since 2005 Steve doing C#?.. you know that's almost java  .. "C# for java programmers" is a pretty thin book. (»www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001···ava.html)
That said, a lot of java programmers have jumped ship and are now coding groovy (»groovy.codehaus.org)
Bottom line. No matter what you've learned, ya' gotta keep on top of the current technologies.
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Steve
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| said by Gomez : Steve doing C#?.. The difference between C# and Java is that Java sucks |
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| said by Steve :said by Gomez : Steve doing C#?.. The difference between C# and Java is that Java sucks Yep, other than the syntax being the same, the exception handling being the same.. One sucks the other doesn't..
NIH (Not invented here) syndrome me thinks.
I know you won't bite this bullet, given the friendly cross fire over C vs java for years.. Makes it all that much more fun
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nil
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1 edit | reply to Steve
said by Steve :said by Gomez : Steve doing C#?.. The difference between C# and Java is that Java sucks .. and while both languages are quickly becoming irrelevant outside of business-type programming, Java looks like it has a brighter future than C#.
Groovy is one language worth looking into, Scala is another.
That's only if you want to stay current on technologies, of course. Otherwise, there's always cobol.
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Steve
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| said by nil : Otherwise, there's always cobol. I prefer the object-oriented version: ADD ONE TO COBOL
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| said by Steve :said by nil : Otherwise, there's always cobol. I prefer the object-oriented version: ADD ONE TO COBOL Wouldn't that be ADD 1 TO COBOL? You give more credit to the parser than it deserves.
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drew
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| reply to nil
Here's my question: if Java and C# are going away for everything but desktop business, what's there for desktop consumer?
I say that because computing in the cloud, so far, sucks. Google Apps is by far the most prevalent and well known IMO, yet even in Chrome, which should be the *best* performer for Google Apps, it's dog slow. What happens when I want to work on a letter to grandma when I'm not able to get online?
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| There are many new languages coming up. A few are mentioned in this thread.
Let me put it this way:
10 years ago, enthusiastic geeks were using Java and business managers were scoffing, these days business managers want Java and enthusiastic geeks moved on.
If you want to stay relevant, you have to stay current.
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1 edit | reply to drew
said by drew :Here's my question: if Java and C# are going away for everything but desktop business, what's there for desktop consumer? I say that because computing in the cloud, so far, sucks. Google Apps is by far the most prevalent and well known IMO, yet even in Chrome, which should be the *best* performer for Google Apps, it's dog slow. What happens when I want to work on a letter to grandma when I'm not able to get online? it's a matter of the best solution.. There is a paradigm shift happening, and those who are not noticing are in trouble.. Win32/.net/other current MS tech isn't going away.. It's firmly entrenched.
Web technologies are evolving rapidly. All the web technologies that were safe bets two years ago are out of favor now. the new hotness is ruby/rails, jruby/rails, groovy/grails, php/symphony..
Doesn't really matter if you are a couch hacker. But if it's a career, it's vital to adapt.
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| reply to nil
My apologies -- even after a quick re-read, I'm not seeing anything about new languages for the desktop. Only web techs.
@Gomez: I respect that the web is evolving VERY rapidly. We've had conversations about this and you've told me to get started on symfony, yesterday so to speak.
I'm personally concerned that there's too much movement towards the web. I can speak in detail about the problem due to experience in a product we're working right now.
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| said by drew :My apologies -- even after a quick re-read, I'm not seeing anything about new languages for the desktop. Only web techs. @Gomez: I respect that the web is evolving VERY rapidly. We've had conversations about this and you've told me to get started on symfony, yesterday so to speak. I'm personally concerned that there's too much movement towards the web. I can speak in detail about the problem due to experience in a product we're working right now. (box + Brain).moveOutside
Any application that has human interaction can and should be web-based.. it's a common interface. Just as Chris Date said there is no reason that a relational database can't perform on par with a non-relational system many have have said the same about UIs.
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| I *hate* web browsers though. Absolutely hate them.
None of them work as they should, there's no standardization.
Form design on a desktop app is not only significantly easier, it's far simpler to handle input from. Any time you design a web app, no matter if it's standards compliant or not, there's at LEAST one of the browsers you have to add in some kind of hack for.
I don't think my head's stuck in a box -- I'm open to new ideas. I'm just talking from a very low skill programmer's [insert word here for what I really am] perspective but mostly from a user's.
The only thing I've seen from a web technology that's really made me go "Whoa..." was Flex. Even then, it's not *that* cool.
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| reply to Gomez
said by Gomez :Any application that has human interaction can and should be web-based.. For n-tier, client server based systems, sure...
But for pure desktop applications? I'm not buying that. You'd have desktop applications like photoshop and Nero be web-based? Acronis true image? AVG apps? Video games like World of Warcraft? What would be the benefit for a complex desktop application to run locally inside of a browser? IMHO you'd be setting desktop application development back, not moving it forward.
Adobe could make photoshop web-based. Blizzard could make WoW web-based. Why aren't they doing that? There's lots of web-based office productivity applications out there, yet people still like desktop apps like MS Office...
Maybe it's the same as arguing religion lol. |
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| reply to drew
That's where you will likely see most language development in coming years. Until there is some new technology to focus on.
My prediction: biggest areas of development in the next couple years will be cross-device computing. Think applications that can run on phones, TVs, game consoles, web and yes, desktops.
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| reply to drew
said by drew :I *hate* web browsers though. Absolutely hate them. None of them work as they should, there's no standardization. Form design on a desktop app is not only significantly easier, it's far simpler to handle input from. Any time you design a web app, no matter if it's standards compliant or not, there's at LEAST one of the browsers you have to add in some kind of hack for. I don't think my head's stuck in a box -- I'm open to new ideas. I'm just talking from a very low skill programmer's [insert word here for what I really am] perspective but mostly from a user's. The only thing I've seen from a web technology that's really made me go "Whoa..." was Flex. Even then, it's not *that* cool. That's strictly a matter of prioritization. What do you want vs. what does the customer want.. Odds are the requirements are vastly different, and one of opinion holders writes checks.
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drew
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| said by drew :Am I not a consumer? We are all both..
But the context is providing software solutions, and in the most part in an SAS environment.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm working on the assumption at this point of the thread diversion (perhaps it should be split?) that it's technology to back a business model.
Cool thing about a web business model is that it's not hard build an app.. The thing that sucks about a web business model is that "it's not hard build an app.."
Classic business models are based on IP (Intellectual property) you can protect that hinders someone from entering your chosen space. i.e. Adobe, Microsoft, Apple..
But the web space has little IP.. Facebook, MySpace, Digg, Yahoo, even Google.. None that's solid. There are some weak attempts, but there are no real IP barriers prohibiting any of us from attempting to enter any of those spaces..
The spaces are won by good timing getting there, and being agile to your consumer requirements once you are there..
If you want to play in this space, you have to play to win, and that means being on-top of the technology race, understanding what your users want, and deploying it as timely as possible.
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| But even the web 2.0 sites have desktop utilities that make the web app simply that much better.
Take TweetDeck as an example. While it's done in Adobe AIR, it's an app I run from the desktop and I don't browse to in a web browser. It consolidates many pages worth of Twitter AND facebook data for easy viewing.
I don't dismiss the viability of SAS (software as a service if I understand correctly) and its business model, I just don't think, nor do I want, web applications to be it.
Browsers are the bottleneck there and until Microsoft either gets off the stage and the WebKit guys join up with Mozilla and Opera dies or comes up with the "killer app" browser, I don't think we'll see the end of the consumer desktop application.
Maybe when the technology is there so I don't have to dick with things like CSS (All of you please tell me how on earth you like CSS after doing any kind of Windows or GTK (?) forms based development) to make a web app decent... I'm playing around with Symfony and doing their Jobeet "advent" calendar, but they completely disregard the style-side, because that's out of scope! While serious enterprise class desktop developers often, from my understanding, usually hook into forms and UIs created by real designers, the non-enterprise developers can still do a fantastic job without the same kind of bullshitting you have to do on the web.
I don't think the web technologies are there yet. That's all I'm saying.
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