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This is a sub-selection from Not news


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
reply to baineschile

Re: Not news

said by baineschile:

Maybe we should open an editorial section? This really isnt "News"
I see the Op/Ed flag.

said by baineschile:

Though, the real question is, who does the internet belong to? The people? The ISPs? The backbones? The companies are the ones who have invested the money and time; shouldnt they have SOME right to dictate what goes on with their networks?
The Internet belongs to The Internet Society and is made up of public and private networks who all have agreed to work together. It's a co-op. This co-op has standards and rules and handshake agreements and just plain-old custom. The access providers are just a part of the Internet ecosystem.

Can ISPs dictate? To a point, yes. But the Internet stops being the Internet if the access providers start acting in non-Internet ways. Blocking or degrading connectivity to some in favor to the traffic of others isn't what made the Internet great and it isn't the kind of service that those seeking Internet connections want.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/


cpsycho

join:2008-06-03
HarperLand
The internet belongs to everyone.


FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
reply to funchords
said by funchords:

Blocking or degrading connectivity to some in favor to the traffic of others isn't what made the Internet great and it isn't the kind of service that those seeking Internet connections want.
Which isn't being done. And some of the proposed net neutrality proposals go way beyond prohibiting such activity. They want to get in to requiring ISPs to provide unlimited bandwidth without regard to cost or practicality. If such proposals become law, only the very rich would be able to afford to use this idealized internet because of runaway costs.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page



Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:39
They want to get in to requiring ISPs to provide unlimited bandwidth without regard to cost or practicality.
You'll have to show me which proposal does that.


baineschile
2600 ways to live
Premium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI

1 recommendation

reply to funchords
Who is the leader of the Internet Society? Can we nominate you Rob


FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
reply to Karl Bode
said by Karl Bode:

They want to get in to requiring ISPs to provide unlimited bandwidth without regard to cost or practicality.
You'll have to show me which proposal does that.
Here is 1 example. The key was prohibition of QOS and admission control of data to the network.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_F···_of_2006
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_ne···islation
quote:
prohibits the use of admission control to determine network traffic priority.
Net Neutrality proponents are still trying to put things like this in to law. The network either is completely unmanageable or so cost prohibitive to make the net non-blocking.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page



Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:39
Oh. I thought you meant current proposals. Not ones defeated in 2006. Yes, I don't think restricting intelligent network management makes sense, and I think most of the newer proposals have evolved to reflect the kind of things Sandvine is doing with real time node congestion detection.

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
reply to funchords
said by funchords:

The Internet belongs to The Internet Society and is made up of public and private networks who all have agreed to work together. It's a co-op. This co-op has standards and rules and handshake agreements and just plain-old custom. The access providers are just a part of the Internet ecosystem.
If its a custom, only fools hold onto it, change or DIE! per byte charging is the future!
Can ISPs dictate? To a point, yes. But the Internet stops being the Internet if the access providers start acting in non-Internet ways. Blocking or degrading connectivity to some in favor to the traffic of others isn't what made the Internet great and it isn't the kind of service that those seeking Internet connections want.
Peering disputes will turn the internet into what it wants to be, phone companies. I get free M2M to X, Y, and Z with Company D, and I get free M2M to A, B, and C with Company E, other sites I must pay for.


funchords
Hello
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Yarmouth Port, MA
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reply to FFH5
said by FFH5:

They want to get in to requiring ISPs to provide unlimited bandwidth without regard to cost or practicality. If such proposals become law, only the very rich would be able to afford to use this idealized internet because of runaway costs.
If someone is proposing that in the name of NN, then they're co-opting the principle.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
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reply to baineschile
said by baineschile:

Who is the leader of the Internet Society? Can we nominate you Rob
"I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected."

(probably)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
reply to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Net Neutrality proponents are still trying to put things like this in to law. The network either is completely unmanageable or so cost prohibitive to make the net non-blocking.
If you're trying to say that NN proponents want all broadband modems to be wide open, then you're mistaken. What they're saying is that prioritization isn't allowed. ISPs can still limit the admission rate, they just generally can't prioritize/degrade among the traffic.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
reply to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by funchords:

Blocking or degrading connectivity to some in favor to the traffic of others isn't what made the Internet great and it isn't the kind of service that those seeking Internet connections want.
Which isn't being done.
Madison River blocking VOIP?
Comcast and Sandvine blocking P2P uploads?
Cox and Sandvine blocking P2P uploads?
Cox's prioritization trial in Arkansas and Kansas?

Thanks to this debate and the creation of federal Net Neutrality policies, there are only a few examples if ISPs blocking or degrading VOIP and user uploads. But even those examples are huge when you consider that Comcast and Cox together were involved in the Sandvine RST thing. Together that's a large fraction of the USA Internet populace, not to mention the peers outside of the ISPs what those RSTs also went to.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/

nevtxjustin

join:2006-04-18
Dallas, TX
reply to cpsycho
said by cpsycho:

The internet belongs to everyone.
But how *you* connect to it, belongs to the people that provide you the connection at their leisure, i.e. they can choose to accept you as a customer or tell you to find some other provider. And of course you can chose to pay or not pay them for your access.


jlivingood
Premium,VIP
join:2007-10-28
Philadelphia, PA
kudos:2
reply to baineschile
said by baineschile:

Who is the leader of the Internet Society? Can we nominate you Rob
FWIW, anyone can become a member of ISOC for free, even individuals. As a non-profit, ISOC welcomes anyone's financial support as well:

»www.isoc.org/membership/
--
JL
Comcast


tschmidt
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join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
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reply to FFH5
said by FFH5:

quote:
prohibits the use of admission control to determine network traffic priority.
Net Neutrality proponents are still trying to put things like this in to law. The network either is completely unmanageable or so cost prohibitive to make the net non-blocking.

I think you are being deliberately hyperbolic.

The issue is not traffic priority per se, it is who gets to set priority levels, the ISP or customer. Concern is ISP will enter into business relationships with preferred vendors and provide enhanced service level to them and lower service level to competitors. This is at odds with the end-to-end paradigm of the Internet as a transparent bit delivery mechanism.

Neither the PSTN nor the Internet is non-blocking. Both utilize different mechanisms to manage overload conditions. Even commercial accounts with Service Level Agreement's (SLA) count on the statistical nature of traffic.

The problem for ISP's is the initial model of bursty Internet access is giving way to media streaming. This results in higher average traffic per unit of time then originally expected. In addition residential accounts were expected to be primarily data sinks. As new services are created upload is becoming more important.

/tom