dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
uniqs
22
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei to Davesnothere

Premium Member

to Davesnothere

Re: Fourth Meeting: Media Coverage

A petition is filed with the clerk of the privy council.

They do an initial vetting. Then, it is passed on go Industry Canada who has responsibility to accept it or reject it.

If it rejects it, then it is dropped/forgotten. No legal obligations.

If it accepts it, it gets published in the Canada Gazette with a process calling for comments (usually 30 days but has been made longer in the past). From that point on, a response is required.

When accepted, the CRTC must also send a copy to the interested parties. This was done by the CRTC a few weeks ago when I had been told that the petition would be published on the 19th. This means that at that point in time, the CRTC had been told by IC that the petition would be accepted. Something changed afterwards to cause the petition to go back to "being considered" status.

Governor in council : clerk of the privy council aka: cabinet secretary. )

At the conclusion of the cnsulattion, the minister of industry reports back to cabinet with his suggestion for action, that suggstion is approved by cabinet, after which the clerk of the privy council issues the order in council whic is sent to the CRTC.
jfmezei

jfmezei

Premium Member

Note: clement and his advisors would be very aware of my petition. They are the ones who make the decision on whether to accept it or reject it, and usually such items also get "advise" from the prime minister.
NCRGuy
join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON

NCRGuy to jfmezei

Member

to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

Governor in council : clerk of the privy council aka: cabinet secretary. )

I just want to correct this. The Clerk is not the Governor in council. The Governor in council is the Governor General acting on the advice of the Cabinet.
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei

Premium Member

NCRguy, I had been told by the PCO that the governor general was not involved at all. While the GG has to sign bills into law, it is not clear to me whether he/she has to sign an order in council.

Note that an order in council is ussed by cabinet without the need for a vote in the house or without getting the senate involved. These are discretionary powers to the cabinet.

Perhaps the title refers to the GG, but in practice she/he is not involved in such matters.
NCRGuy
join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON

NCRGuy

Member

said by jfmezei:

NCRguy, I had been told by the PCO that the governor general was not involved at all. While the GG has to sign bills into law, it is not clear to me whether he/she has to sign an order in council.

Note that an order in council is ussed by cabinet without the need for a vote in the house or without getting the senate involved. These are discretionary powers to the cabinet.

Perhaps the title refers to the GG, but in practice she/he is not involved in such matters.

This is functionally correct. Essentially, the Cabinet exercises the authority on behalf of the GG. The GG does not physically sign an OiC (nor does he sign a bill to make it law), but rather it is signed by another in his name.

My concern with your earlier characterization of the Clerk as the GiC, was it seemed to suggest the Clerk was the decision making authority. That authority rests with the Cabinet, with others, including the Clerk, merely carrying out the orders.
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei

Premium Member

I never intended to imply the clerk had decision authority. The minister of industry suggests a decision which is approved by cabinet, and the clerk then processes it and issues the order in council.

Once the PCO has vetted a petition, it passes it on to Industry Canada. From that point on, PCO has no role to play with the petition anymore.

It will have a role to play once the cabinet has signed the order in council and the PCO is in charge of issuing it and sending it to the CRTC. (and publishing it in the appropriate government documents).

BTW, I just checked with the gazette folks. Once a document has been submitted to the Gazette folks, it will still get published if the government is disolved the day after it was submitted, unless the minister wishes to widthdraw it. A disolved government generally won't file any new documents, but the Gazette continues to be published because there are also many documents that are issued by government operations and independent bodies such as the CRTC. (CRTC decisions are published in the gazette for instance).

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

4 edits

Davesnothere to jfmezei

Premium Member

to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

A petition is filed with the clerk of the privy council.

They do an initial vetting. Then, it is passed on go Industry Canada who has responsibility to accept it or reject it.

If it rejects it, then it is dropped/forgotten. No legal obligations.

If it accepts it, it gets published in the Canada Gazette with a process calling for comments (usually 30 days but has been made longer in the past). From that point on, a response is required.

When [a petition to GiC such as JF's is] accepted, the CRTC must also send a copy to the interested parties. This was done by the CRTC a few weeks ago when I had been told that the petition would be published on the 19th. This means that at THAT point in time, the CRTC had been told by IC that the petition would be accepted.

Something changed afterwards to cause the petition to go back to "being considered" status
....

.
That's what was confusing to me, the part about WHO has the authority to tell whom what will happen with a petition to GiC.

At some point yesterday, it was said (I forget just where ATM) that the CRTC could decide whether or not a petition to GiC would be published, but here, YOUR explanation said that IC has the say over what CRTC will do, AND over any petition's fate, which is consistent to how you had explained it in the past.

So you are saying that ALL of the incumbent telcos & cablecos, participating organizations, and some Indie ISPs, each currently have a copy of your petition to examine ?
Davesnothere

Davesnothere to jfmezei

Premium Member

to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

Note: Clement and his advisors would be very aware of my petition.

They are the ones who make the decision on whether to accept it or reject it, and usually such items also get "advice" from the prime minister.

.
Which again I say makes Clement's remark at yesterday's meeting confusing, about "NOT HAVING KNOWN about your petition until some member of the public had TWEETED him".

Or did I miss some other subtlety in what he said ?

Strange....

GNca George
GorillaNET Wireless Broadband
Premium Member
join:2008-07-12
Minden, ON

GNca George

Premium Member

said by Davesnothere:

Which again I say makes Clement's remark at yesterday's meeting confusing, about "NOT HAVING KNOWN about your petition until some member of the public had TWEETED him".

Or did I miss some other subtlety in what he said ?

Strange....

I heard what you did, but we knew about it right after JF submitted it. Mr. Clement may not have heard about it for a few hours/days after we knew. Someone that reads here could well have Tweeted Tony before he found out from formal channels.

What's good for the goose (Clement tweeting before he spoke with Konrad) is good for the gander (Clement gets to hear about the petition from a member of the public through Twitter instead of normal channels)...

Geo

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to jfmezei

Premium Member

to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

A petition is filed with the clerk of the privy council....

.
Methinks a FLOWCHART would help us understand the process, using boxes labelled with names, titles, and departments of all involved officials.

Add branches for what happens if an election is called at various points along the process, and so on.

Worthwhile ?
Davesnothere

1 edit

Davesnothere to GNca George

Premium Member

to GNca George
said by GNca George:

said by Davesnothere:

Which again I say makes Clement's remark at yesterday's meeting confusing, about "NOT HAVING KNOWN about your petition until some member of the public had TWEETED him".

Or did I miss some other subtlety in what he said ?

Strange....

I heard what you did, but WE knew about it right after JF submitted it.

Mr. Clement may not have heard about it for a few hours/days after we knew. Someone that reads here could well have Tweeted Tony before he found out from formal channels.

What's good for the goose (Clement tweeting before he spoke with Konrad) is good for the gander (Clement gets to hear about the petition from a member of the public through Twitter instead of normal channels)...

Geo

.
FOC, ROFL !

For ONCE we have the fucking inside track on something, and WE get confused as a result !

And Clement did not specify exactly WHEN he was tweeted.

Therefive, we can only speculate that it was sometime between when WE heard, and the start of yesterday's meeting, though the vibe that I got from Clement was that it was later rather than sooner.

Hmmmm....

BTW, folks, McDonalds Canada has FREE COFFEE all this week until end of March 6th, to again give Timmies a shake on their annual 'Roll-Up' promotion. (same as last year)
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei

Premium Member

Clement knew a few minutes after the petition was received. He got a copy.

Remember that they had to modify a press release to add reference to the petition. He knew. And I can tell you that his boss also knew. This was well received initially, but somewhere along the way, they changed their mind (or some lobysists sent a letter which caused them to change their mind).

mazhurg
Premium Member
join:2004-05-02
Brighton, ON

mazhurg

Premium Member

said by jfmezei:

but somewhere along the way, they changed their mind (or some lobysists sent a letter which caused them to change their mind).

Political interference?

Who would have thought!

.. It IS an ironical comment
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei

Premium Member

It isn't political interference. The decision to accept (aka: publish) or reject a petition is purely political. The Minister decides.

The Minister gets lobbied all the time. And they have their own agenda as well (especially with a possible election).

Saying he was not aware of its status was, in popular vernacular, total and utter bullshit. He was fully aware of it, and the fact that IC staff (non political) were told to not return my calls means that the decision came from high up.

However, there is no point in challenging this. This is the type of white FIB that any politician will do and get away with.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by jfmezei:

However, there is no point in challenging this. This is the type of white FIB FIBE that any politician will do and get away with.

Fixed it.

andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario

andyb to GNca George

Premium Member

to GNca George
I tweeted him on the Saturday morning after I checked the gazette.Whether he seen it or not I do not know.But the following week parliament was on an off week where none of the MP's were in Ottawa.It is conceivable he didnt get in contact with whoever about it until later.I'm not sure if his minions had the week off too or not

GNca George
GorillaNET Wireless Broadband
Premium Member
join:2008-07-12
Minden, ON

GNca George

Premium Member

I think he may have been back in Muskoka that weekend too which may have slowed the petition reaching his hands.

Makes a lot of sense, which makes me nervous!

Geo

trainwreck6
join:2010-09-21
off track

trainwreck6 to jfmezei

Member

to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

It isn't political interference. The decision to accept (aka: publish) or reject a petition is purely political. The Minister decides.

The Minister gets lobbied all the time. And they have their own agenda as well (especially with a possible election).

Saying he was not aware of its status was, in popular vernacular, total and utter bullshit. He was fully aware of it, and the fact that IC staff (non political) were told to not return my calls means that the decision came from high up.

However, there is no point in challenging this. This is the type of white FIB that any politician will do and get away with.

The same IC staff, like Luigi Buffoon, who ignored my Measurement Canada concerns?