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tecon

@alicedsl.de

[DSL] Need something better than QoS

My Setup: DSL 4500/500kbit/s to Router (WRT54GS+TomatoFW) to Win7 64bit PC

I'm tired of QoS not being able to regulate the downstream, because by the time it could do that the packets are always blocking the bottleneck anyway. It's logical but I don't like it. I'm tired of trying to limit the downstream by adjusting the upstream, involving alot of guesswork. I'm tired of mechanisms that do not allow instant internet usage, because first my router has to throttle back bulk traffic to allow my http requests through. I'm tired of trying to seperately identify Streaming Video, HTTP Downloads and Web surfing in the router via Layer7 filtering (which somehow does not work for me) and KB-Transferred filtering (which also won't work).

I know the ultimate solution to this but I don't know which programs I need for this. Here it goes:

I have to be able to "split my Internet connection" into 2 virtual connections (or something similar to that). Everything has to be happening on the Windows PC, NOT the Router, because routers cannot see enough (because of OSI Layer Modell). As I said QoS is also not a solution because it cannot effectively limit downstream. I have to coordinate the programs on the PC directly.

First Connection: X Amounts of Mbit reserved only for what I actively do: Surfing, Youtube, Gaming, VOIP, things I have my Attention on. This never gets used if I'm not actively working the Internet.

Second connection: Y Amounts of Mbit reserved for all stuff I set in motion in the background: Torrent, Usenet Downloads, HTTP Downloads, stuff that I really don't care about that much.

SO I want to split my Internet connection so that X Mbit is always free for me, without having to wait for some mechanism to MAKE it free for me beforehand. Ideally, if connection 1 fills up, it could start using connection 2 bandwidth too.

But after 10 Minutes of inactivity on virtual connection 1, I want virtual connection 2 to take over everything, until I come back to my PC to do something on virtual connection 1. This is only for me sleeping, out of my home etc.

I see how this would be easy with 2 PCs, but I can only afford one.

That would be the ultimate solution. I was thinking about something like Netfilter. But how to I seperate HTTP downloads from Surfing/Streaming (Port 80)?


tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
·FirstLight Fiber
·Hollis Hosting
·G4 Communications
I'm not aware of any mechanism that will be able to do what you want. If you find a solution to the problem please let us know.

You might find this presentation about the negative effects of overly large buffers have on latency interesting.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbIozKVz ··· ozKVz73g


/tom

Kirby Smith

join:2001-01-26
Derry, NH
Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..

2 recommendations

Thanks, tschmidt, that was quite interesting and important. To avoid hijacking the thread, I'll avoid further comment on it.

To tecon, I fear even partially solving your problem requires two broadband connections and a dual wan router capable of binding different traffic types to particular wan interfaces.

kirby


tubbynet
reminds me of the danse russe
Premium,MVM
join:2008-01-16
Chandler, AZ
kudos:1
reply to tecon
said by tecon :

I'm tired of QoS not being able to regulate the downstream,

welcome to the internet. the downstream is out of your control. for qos to be effective, each router needs to ensure that the cos/dscp values are marked and obeyed. you may have queuing set up on your router to look for higher level protocols and "place the rest behind", but i don't believe that simple soho routers perform such packet re-writes. additionally, even if they could -- your provider would null it out anyway, since they have their own qos policy to make sure that things that they need in their network function the way it should. long story short -- for qos to work bi-directionally, you either (a) need to be in control of the entire path or (b) have an mpls provider working with you to provide some sort of mpls-te support. within the mpls vpn -- qos is obeyed -- allowing you to mark packets and ensure they are moved accordingly.

I have to be able to "split my Internet connection" into 2 virtual connections (or something similar to that). Everything has to be happening on the Windows PC, NOT the Router, because routers cannot see enough (because of OSI Layer Modell). As I said QoS is also not a solution because it cannot effectively limit downstream. I have to coordinate the programs on the PC directly.

qos is a very broad term. what you're looking at is known as "shaping" or "policing" the connection. this is very possible with a much more expensive router. additionally -- your policies would be very complex and convoluted and may not work as desired -- especially as you've defined "http transfers" as bulk and "web surfing/youtube" as immediate. this requires inspection of the layer-7 application headers (possible on a router, but *very* process intensive). asking a router to look at the layer-7 application information, queue if needed, then shape the outgoing parent class to a single ip is very tough to do without spending a lot of money on a high horsepower telco router.
i think what you're going to do in order to accomplish this is create a program that will identify actions on the internet and use that as a cue to tie in to application "x" using an api call to set the download speed to position "p_x".
or -- you could just manually tweak the settings (i.e. have a position "p_b" for busy usage and "p_a" for away usage) in your torrent/usenet application and make it a habit to change them.

q.
--
"...if I in my north room dance naked, grotesquely before my mirror waving my shirt round my head and singing softly to myself..."


NetFixer
Bah Humbug
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
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reply to Kirby Smith
said by Kirby Smith:

To tecon, I fear even partially solving your problem requires two broadband connections and a dual wan router capable of binding different traffic types to particular wan interfaces.

That was what I used to do when I had two limited bandwidth DSL connections.
--
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
-- Thomas Jefferson

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to tecon
said by tecon :

First Connection: X Amounts of Mbit reserved only for what I actively do: Surfing, Youtube, Gaming, VOIP, things I have my Attention on. This never gets used if I'm not actively working the Internet.

Second connection: Y Amounts of Mbit reserved for all stuff I set in motion in the background: Torrent, Usenet Downloads, HTTP Downloads, stuff that I really don't care about that much.

So, you want to have two groups with different priorities. The easiest solution for you is to go to the second group individually (program by program) and set low priority for using network in each of them. E.g, torrent clients usually allow to limit upload speed (not sure that you can do that to its download traffic, but I guess it depends on the client). Set it to appropriate level and see. HTTP downloads? I guess download managers should allow to set such limit too.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

Bink
Villains... knock off all that evil

join:2006-05-14
Castle Rock, CO
kudos:4
Reviews:
·VOIPO
reply to tecon
You can do QoS on the downstream, but it’s not as effective and you’d need to set your maximum bandwidth to a value lower than your actual maximum bandwidth to prevent the provider from dropping your packets. TCP will lower its transmission rate when packets start getting dropped.

HELLFIRE
Premium
join:2009-11-25
kudos:19
reply to tschmidt
OT @tschmidt
Interesting discussion, wish the slides were available online as well to follow along.

Regards


tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
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·Hollis Hosting
·G4 Communications
said by HELLFIRE:

OT @tschmidt
Interesting discussion, wish the slides were available online as well to follow along.

Glad you and Kirby Smith See Profile found it interesting.

Here you go:
»mirrors.bufferbloat.net/Talks/Ba ··· loat.pdf

»gettys.wordpress.com/category/bu ··· erbloat/

/tom


JDickiez

join:2010-01-13
Pittsburgh, PA
reply to tecon
Have you seen this thread?
»Tomato 1.23; TCP Vegas congestion control introduced.

Using QOS & TCP Vegas at the same time should help.