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jjlutzke

join:2011-12-31
Elkhart Lake, WI

[Equipment] How can I run 650' of cable from my house to my WISP

Here is my situtation; only high speed internet is wireless. I currently use Cellcom residential wireless. Speeds are on the low end .3 to .6 normally, max of 1.1 Mbs. I get 50 GB of data which is nice, but the speeds make it hard to utilize.

I want to switch to a WISP and have 3 choices in the area, Excel.net, Bertram Wireless, and Mercury.net. I'm on a hill, but can't get LOS due to trees. 2 choices - build a 65'+ tower ( which my wife does not want ) or relocate my WISPs subscriber unit ( antenna receiver ) approximately 650' away from my house on the other side of my woods. The SUs run on Cat5 and the hardware mfg states no longer than 90m of cable because they use PoE. My WISP never used any PoE extenders and is unsure if the hardware will work properly. I have a call out to the hardware mfg but have not received any response. It's the Alvarion VL series of equipment.

Any suggestions?
Thank you,
Jeff Lutzke
Elkhart Lake, WI



treichhart

join:2006-12-12

Re: [Equipment] How can I run 650' of cable from my house to my

there is 2 ways of doing this there is expensive way and cheap way which way you want to go?


DRIVE71

join:2005-06-08
reply to jjlutzke

Check out this thread over at the ubnt forum:

»forum.ubnt.com/showthread.php?p=···st223182

Scroll down to the end to see his solution


jjlutzke

join:2011-12-31
Elkhart Lake, WI
reply to treichhart

Cheap is always nice, but I'd spend more if reliability goes up. What's your thoughts?



treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to jjlutzke

After re-reading it there is really noway doing it cheap to be truthful. like drive71 posted you might have to do that setup.


LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1

If you intend to go aerial, consider using a coax with messenger. There exists coax + power to use the power pair. You could use messenger and the shield to deliver DC voltage to the far end or dual coax with messenger and use the second coax for power.

There is also coax + power without messenger.

Use MoCA adapters to deliver ethernet.

CAT5 could go the distance if forced to 10 mbps and some folk will pull a second CAT5 cable and quad up the pairs to carry the DC current.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey



treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to jjlutzke

You can get Netgear MoCa adapters for 150 Dollars and they the distance is about 1000ft on coax I do believe but your going need to figure out how to power the adapters.


raytaylor

join:2009-07-28
kudos:1
reply to jjlutzke

Have a look at my posts in this thread
»Need to locate cpe 500-600ft from house/power, options?

It uses one cat5 cable for ethernet, and two of the pairs for positive, and then negative runs on the fence wire. 19 volts goes in from a laptop power supply brick, and it powers an airgrid M5 at the top, along with 2x 5 port ethernet switches to act as repeaters along the way.

That solution was something i did on the cheap about 2 years ago. Still works very well.

650m is 198 metres. Ethernet is only spec'd to go 100m. So you will need an ethernet switch (12 to 24v) about half way to act as a repeater.

So my suggestion would be two runs of outdoor aerial cat5 with a load bearing messenger wire.

In the first cat5 cable, use the green and orange pairs for the auctual ethernet. These will go through the switch / repeater at half way.

Also in the first cat5 cable, use the brown and blue pairs, with the blue pairs from the second ethernet cable to run the positive.

In the second ethernet cable, use the brown, green and orange pairs to run the negative.

At the half way point, the ethernet pairs go into RJ45 plugs and go through the ethernet switch. At the same time, the + and - pairs are bonded respectivley so that if a pair does get cut along the way, power flows around it, and also the + and - are tapped into for powering the ethernet switch repeater.

At the far end, the +, - and ethernet pairs are bonded respectivley and joined into one cat5 cable going into the CPE radio.

By using multiple pairs for the positive and negative, you are virtually increasing the thickness of the wire carrying the power. By increasing the thickness, you decrease the resistance. So 24 volts of power will go much further along the wire, if the wire is thicker.

You probably wont be able to use the power supply that came with the CPE device, but most electronic stores sell a 2 amp 24v wall wart transformer, or even just an old laptop power supply will work.

If you properly install the cat5 cable by putting hooks into the tree trunks along the way, and use outdoor grade cat5 with the messenger wire, i see no reason why this wouldnt work.

You will probably need to install the cable runs yourself, with about 5m hanging down at the half way point so that the cables can be spliced into and a box installed, it should work well.

Do you know how to make or wire up a cat5 cable and use a crimper? If so i can draw a wiring diagram and you will probably be able to do the bulk of it yourself and test with a laptop at the far end. Then just get the WISP to install their radio as they normally would and plug it into your wiring system.

This all of course assumes that their CPE radio runs on 12 to 24 volts.



49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
reply to LLigetfa

said by LLigetfa:

You could use messenger and the shield to deliver DC voltage to the far end or dual coax with messenger and use the second coax for power.

Or just run the power over the coax using a pair of power inserters.

»www.mjsales.net/items.asp?Family···at2ID=51

Wayne
--
"It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." - Charles A. Beard


treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to jjlutzke

Nice to know I didnt know you could do this with coax power inserters so how would this little device would inline with MoCa adapter?


LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to 49528867

Yes, but I had concerns for the MoCA adapters WRT DC decoupling and also voltage drop with the centre conductor.



treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to jjlutzke

But it does with with the MoCa adapters right?



nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
·surpasshosting
reply to jjlutzke

MoCA over RG11. You could probably get away with RG6, but I wouldn't risk it.
You can send power down the RG11, just make sure you get an inserter that passes 5-2150 MHz. MoCA 1.1 uses up to 1525 MHz, but 2150 MHz is a common inserter frequency that will foot the bill. Make SURE you find an inserter that will pass enough voltage and current to power both the WISP radio and the MoCA adapter.
Quality RG11 will have a 14 AWG center conductor of solid copper, and a braid with 85% aluminum shield.
The DC VD @ 700ft should be about 7-9 VDC @ 48 VDC supply running a 2 Amp load. You'll have to investigate the operating voltage and current of both the MoCA device, and your WISPs radio equipment. You'll want both to be similar. You'll probably have to come up with a special order power supply to get the voltage just right, or at least within tolerance, on the far end.

I've done many MoCA installs now, and can say I've never encountered a problem. It works seamlessly out of the box.
If you wait a few weeks, MoCA 2.0 equipment is supposed to be on the shelves.
MoCA will work to 300 meters on RG6. RG11 extends this distance somewhat.
--
...because I care.



49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3

1 recommendation

said by nunya:

You'll probably have to come up with a special order power supply to get the voltage just right, or at least within tolerance, on the far end.

Or do what cable does and shove 60 volts ac down the coax, then either rectify to the DC voltage needed or use a 1-2 ratio transformer to bring it back up to 120 volts ac and power locally from that.

Wayne
--
"It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." - Charles A. Beard


treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to jjlutzke

See I have the netgear MoCa adapters and for pair of them was like 130 dollars so how much are these new 2.0 adapters will cost?


LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

MoCA 1.1 uses up to 1525 MHz, but 2150 MHz is a common inserter frequency that will foot the bill.

Thanks for doing the legwork. The DC injector spec'd has a bandpass of 2-1450 MHz. Also, one needs to keep in mind that in this application two would be needed in bookends fashion, one as the injector and the other as a picker.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey


nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
reply to treichhart

You can get the Netgear 1.1's now for $80 / pr. from Adams Cable Equipment (free shipping). They'll handle up to 270 Mbps. There's no pricing on the 2.0 stuff yet.
--
...because I care.


wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1
reply to jjlutzke

Alvarion VL will work fine at 650' just lock the ethernet port on both sides to 10/half. IIRC Alvarion PoE is already 60 volts.


pacmanfan
Premium
join:2003-11-22
Mansfield, MO
reply to jjlutzke

I would consider running AC wiring and fiber optics. If you're just running a couple radios, a switch and a fiber media converter, 14AWG solid THHN wire in conduit may be just fine. Last time I bought direct-bury multimode fiber, i paid $.33/ft. I'm guessing your materials cost for this project would be approx. $1500 if done in this manner.

Disclaimer: I am not an electrician. Maybe it's a Really Bad Thing to run AC wiring that far, even with such a minor load.
--
"thats what i need, a digi cam for when i need to take pictures. im not going to go around taking photos and stuff." Julio



nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
·surpasshosting

You would have to be extremely careful using A/C due to the same voltage drop you encounter with DC. The problem is the VD has to be tightly calculated based on the load current. You'd have to be real careful that some knuckle head didn't come along and plug an additional load in (like a drill, light, or charger). Switching PSU would probably be OK down to around 90-100V, due to most being designed for "universal" use.
A boost transformer could help. But, again, you have to be 110% sure of the absolute load.

A 1000' roll of "flooded" RG11 will cost about $250. The MoCa adapters would be about $80. The power supply and inserters would be less than $250 (cheaper if you go with low end stuff).

14/2 UF would cost about $220. The absolute cheapest I could find direct burial MM was $.50 / ft., so that would be about $350.

I think it would be pretty close to a wash.
--
...because I care.



treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to jjlutzke

I was going to say run power over fiber like andrew said but I dont know how well the OP how to hook up fiber over power.



49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to LLigetfa

said by LLigetfa:

Thanks for doing the legwork. The DC injector spec'd has a bandpass of 2-1450 MHz.

It's worth noting that those devices uses inductive blocking on the DC side and capacitive coupling to pass the RF, as such the label may say it goes to 1450 Mhz, but I am willing to bet it goes higher, the size of the cap limits the low end pass through frequency but as the frequencies go higher it becomes less relevant and mechanical construction becomes more relevant and the design of that device is a pretty simple “T” without a lot of impedance through the RF path as such it’s losses at 1525 should be quite tolerable..

Also with MoCA the additional bandwidth gained in the newer versions is gained by adding channels at lower frequencies which I believe rev 2.2 has down to 500Mhz as such the higher end is not being pushed even higher.

The larger problem I see with MoCA is in the lab it should handle up to a 60dB link loss, but I am quite willing to bet the manufacturers of the devices knowing it is “in home” networking system may be selling devices that cannot handle those loss levels.

As such, I believe the focus should be on keeping the coax losses to a minimum of at least half that 60dB down rating.

Wayne
--
"It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." - Charles A. Beard


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
reply to pacmanfan

said by pacmanfan:

14AWG solid THHN wire in conduit may be just fine.

Personally I wouldn’t pull solid into a conduit but that’s just me, none the less, unless that conduit is metallic, one had better put some twists in that wiring before pulling it into the pipe, otherwise one has built themselves a neat little surge magnet.

Now normally it wouldn’t matter in the electrical world, but here we are considering running a couple of very low amperage electrical devices at the end of what becomes a long wire antenna and those low amperage devices to an induced surge appear as high impedance, which results in a considerably higher surge voltage at the far end from the source of power.

To solve this problem we now have either to get into some serious surge protection and grounding to go along with it or consider coax or UTP, which while still susceptible to induced surges provides enough balance or shielding to reduce the voltage of the surges to the point we can back off on the grounding a bit.

It’s a balance of which all options have to weighed against one and another.

Wayne
--
"It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." - Charles A. Beard

pacmanfan
Premium
join:2003-11-22
Mansfield, MO
reply to jjlutzke

Wayne,

That's just the kind of input I was needing on my approach. I have done what I stated on a ~280ft run, with no problems this far. It's grounded quite well at the radio end, though

I was curious how much farther I could consider using this technique.
--
"thats what i need, a digi cam for when i need to take pictures. im not going to go around taking photos and stuff." Julio


robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to wirelessdog

said by wirelessdog:

Alvarion VL will work fine at 650' just lock the ethernet port on both sides to 10/half. IIRC Alvarion PoE is already 60 volts.

Sounds like this is the answer.