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MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

How would I request the elimination of the touch-tone fee?

What's the filing process to ask the CRTC to eliminate the $2.80 monthly charge for touch-tone service?


lifestronaut
Premium
join:2011-03-23
Montreal, QC
Step 1: Make sure your # key works

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
LOL

jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:23
reply to MaynardKrebs
You would need to file a part 1 request. Not sure what part of a part 1 though.

gosub »www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/statutes-lois ··· lois.htm

look for:

Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Rules of Practice and Procedure

There is also various other statutes accessible on that page wich can help you focus your request.

For a formal submission, you request you access key. (this can also be used to make passport requests etc). You prepare a nice PDF document and submit it to the CRTC with a copy to regulatory at bell.ca

Note: POTS is foreborne in many areas. So if you are asking for Bell to remove the touch tone fee in Toronto, tought luck because the CRTC no longer regulates that area. But if you are asking for some out-in-the-boon-docks area where Bell is still dominant, then it is still regulated.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

1 recommendation

Well then, maybe I have to ask the CRTC to require Bell to stop labeling it as a "Touch Tone" fee since that implies CRTC approval of the fee (given the original CRTC approval for said fee long before most DSLr participants were born).

Perhaps a more appropriate name the CRTC should require Bell to call it is "The Sticking It Up Your Ass Because We Can for Touch Tone Service Fee".


alienzzz
Kill Bell

join:2011-02-17
Verdun, QC
reply to MaynardKrebs
How about Bell Ripoff Fee #47?

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to MaynardKrebs
I doubt the CRTC would remove touch-tone fees just because you ask and even if that goes through, incumbents who charge it will demand an adjustment to the phone service fee to offset most of it. They will likely state that the TT fee is currently used to offset the loss in productivity factor on the copper plant from losing phone subscribers to wireless, VoIP and cable.

With plenty of options available, my guess is that the CRTC will say that if you really do not want to pay TT fee, you can switch to a different provider.

Jurjen

join:2010-08-18
Montreal, QC
reply to MaynardKrebs
Drop POTS and go to VoIP?

jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:23
Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee.

I think this the reason touch tone was never integrated into the base fee.

On the other hand, they could have integrated the $2.75 into the base fee and given a $2.75 rotary service rebate to those few grandmothers still on grandfathered rotary service because they haven't made any changes to their phone lines since the days where touch tone became mandatory for all new lines.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·Comcast Business..
·SONIC.NET
said by jfmezei:

Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee.

I think this the reason touch tone was never integrated into the base fee.

On the other hand, they could have integrated the $2.75 into the base fee and given a $2.75 rotary service rebate to those few grandmothers still on grandfathered rotary service because they haven't made any changes to their phone lines since the days where touch tone became mandatory for all new lines.

The irony is that the touch tone equipment, being solid state, costs much less to maintain than its fully-mechanical rotary counterpart. Additionally, you can cram many more touch tone switches into a rack than you can fit rotary switches, which leads to decreased real-estate costs for touch tone users, as well. Additionally, most common touch tone switches can also handle rotary dialing.

The fact is that upgrading to touch tone equipment is a one time cost for Bell, followed by reduced maintenance and location costs, which, over a relatively short time, works out cheaper for Bell than the old rotary equipment, yet they want to charge a monthly fee for this. Phone companies in the US (at least, those I've dealt with) charge a fee for rotary service, though in most areas it's just a matter of setting a bit in the switch configuration; there are areas still that are serviced by rotary equipment, I'm not sure whether those areas pay an additional fee for the service. No fee for touch tone service here, because our carriers recognize the benefit to having as many people as possibly using the service; it costs them less, all around, so they make more without adding another fee to the bell. I think even the telcos themselves, down here, realize they've added all the fees they can get away with to our bills.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia
reply to alienzzz
said by alienzzz:

How about Bell Ripoff Fee #47?

Now it would fee # ## since the actual fee number would be a hidden for competitive reasons.


mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5
reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee.

As if they couldn't tell the billing system to pull records where line is rotary and only apply the line fee to those customers. Come on JF it's a cash grab, they make millions off it.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee.

One of my aunts lives in a village that had 5-digits local phone numbers until 10-digit dialing rules came up and she had touch-tone... so the number of people who cannot have touch-tone must be really tiny by now.

jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:23
reply to mlerner
said by mlerner:

[
Come on JF it's a cash grab, they make millions off it.

What if it costs Bell $20 to provide the service ? If the base rate is $17.25 and they tag on a $2.75 touch tone fee, then it isn't a cash grab because the total reflects the real costs.

So you would have to prove that the base costs covers the costs associated with the touch tone and that touch tone hardware was fully amortized decades ago.

Proving that the base fee covers all the costs of the telco (especially when all those costs are expressed in proprietary "#") is a tall order.

You would have more chances of getting the CRTC to conform that Bell would be allowed to start VoIp service that would not be regulated throughput its territory, even in areas where POTS is still regulated.

Bell wants to get rid of POTS, just like he wants to get rid of its pay phones.

jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:23
reply to InvalidError
Invalid, it isn't "the number of people who cannot have touch tone". Everyone can get touch tone.

But when the touch tone fee was made mandatory, it applied only to new installations and those that were already on touch tone.

Those who were on rotary at the time were given waivers where there would not be charged the Touch Tone fee for as long as their phone line remained that way.

There are even rumours that Bell spent money to block touch tone dialing on those grand fathered lines.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
said by jfmezei:

Invalid, it isn't "the number of people who cannot have touch tone". Everyone can get touch tone.

But when the touch tone fee was made mandatory, it applied only to new installations and those that were already on touch tone.

Those who were on rotary at the time were given waivers where there would not be charged the Touch Tone fee for as long as their phone line remained that way.

There are even rumours that Bell spent money to block touch tone dialing on those grand fathered lines.

Incorrect. All lines whether or not the fee is being charged, can receive touch tone service...Unless you're truly in the wilderness or on a super ancient CO, all switches have been upgraded to touch tone...its just a "billing" issue...at this point...Have to wait for all those old people to die before it gets rolled into the monthly price...


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to jfmezei
NM

CR123

join:2006-11-04
Vancouver, BC
reply to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:

incumbents who charge it will demand an adjustment to the phone service fee to offset most of it.

How many incumbents charge the touch-tone fee besides Bell? I know TELUS doesn't out west.

And I don't know about out in Ontario, but here, the non-forborne (regulated) areas tend to be more rural ones with no CLEC competition, so changing to another provider isn't possible.
--
- The content of this post is my opinion, and does not reflect the opinions of my employer. -


Disillusion

@teksavvy.com
reply to MaynardKrebs
The main problem is that there was no sunset clause included
with the original decision by the CRTC to allow the TTSF to be implemented over 40 years ago to offset costs of equipment upgrades at the time.

I think it is well overdue to strike down this antiquated CRTC decision. Multi-millions (if not billions) have been collected under the fee since its inception and it should not be allowed to be used for a purpose other than what it was originally intended for.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to CR123
said by CR123:

And I don't know about out in Ontario, but here, the non-forborne (regulated) areas tend to be more rural ones with no CLEC competition, so changing to another provider isn't possible.

VoIP is a contender wherever you can get reliable IP connectivity at more than 300kbps and many rural areas can also have cable phone and cellular.

jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:23
said by InvalidError:

VoIP is a contender wherever you can get reliable IP connectivity

Not to worry, I am sure my buddy Mirko is working hard to convince CRTC to allow Bell to charge the touch tone fee on dry lines

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:6
When ISDN Megalink first came out, they charged what amounted to a Touch Tone fee on each B channel. It was priced at the same price as trunk line touch tone was priced - $10.70/month IIRC.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


MacGyver
Don't Waste Your Energy
Premium,ExMod 2003-05
join:2001-10-14
Canada
kudos:2
reply to MaynardKrebs
I found the easiest way to get rid of the touch tone fee was to pick up the phone and sign up for POTS with Teksavvy.


vitesse

join:2002-12-17
Saint-Jean-Sur-Richelieu, QC
Reviews:
·ELECTRONICBOX
·voip.ms
·Bell Sympatico
·Videotron
reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

Not to worry, I am sure my buddy Mirko is working hard to convince CRTC to allow Bell to charge the touch tone fee on dry lines

They will call this a dial tone fee

For the original OP, to be honest it far simpler to just go with VOIP services. It's cheaper and you have more services included.
--
Connection: ElectronicBox 60mbps / 3mbps
Bilingual DSLR ElectronicBox Forum: »ELECTRONICBOX


Ott_Cable

@teksavvy.com
reply to jfmezei
Knowing Bell, their solution is probably to make IP connectivity unreliable - see DPI throttling as step 1. They weren't happy to see real time traffic outside of what they could legally throttle. :P


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee.

My dad refused to pay for touch-tone service, and one day it just worked. It was probably easier to convert everyone over than piecemeal each sub.
--
--Standard disclaimers apply.--
google this "(sqrt(cos(x))*cos(200*x)+sqrt(abs(x))-0.7)*(4-x*x)^0.01, sqrt(9-x^2), -sqrt(9-x^2)"

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

What's the filing process to ask the CRTC to eliminate the $2.80 monthly charge for touch-tone service?

As others have said, get VoIP such as your fine Canadian companies:

For the DIY:
»voip.ms/

For full-service:
»www.acrovoice.ca/content/residen ··· _service

Seriously, POTS is dying. Not as fast in Canada as the US, but POTS is dying. These are its death throes.


Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
Premium
join:2009-06-15
START Today!
kudos:7
reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee.

I think this the reason touch tone was never integrated into the base fee.

On the other hand, they could have integrated the $2.75 into the base fee and given a $2.75 rotary service rebate to those few grandmothers still on grandfathered rotary service because they haven't made any changes to their phone lines since the days where touch tone became mandatory for all new lines.

 
The CRTC approval of which was just one slide of many on the slippery slope for B$ELL to charge everyone more for something which originally cost less to administrate.

--

We have only 2 things about which to worry :
(1) That things may never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !


Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
Premium
join:2009-06-15
START Today!
kudos:7
reply to BronsCon
said by BronsCon:

The irony is that the touch tone equipment, being solid state, costs much less to maintain than its fully-mechanical rotary counterpart. Additionally, you can cram many more touch tone switches into a rack than you can fit rotary switches, which leads to decreased real-estate costs for touch tone users, as well. Additionally, most common touch tone switches can also handle rotary dialing.

The fact is that upgrading to touch tone equipment is a one time cost for Bell, followed by reduced maintenance and location costs, which, over a relatively short time, works out cheaper for Bell than the old rotary equipment, yet they want to charge a monthly fee for this. Phone companies in the US (at least, those I've dealt with) charge a fee for rotary service, though in most areas it's just a matter of setting a bit in the switch configuration; there are areas still that are serviced by rotary equipment, I'm not sure whether those areas pay an additional fee for the service. No fee for touch tone service here, because our carriers recognize the benefit to having as many people as possibly using the service; it costs them less, all around, so they make more without adding another fee to the bell. I think even the telcos themselves, down here, realize they've added all the fees they can get away with to our bills.

 
So it STILL costs B$ELL less to offer TT than Pulse ?

SHAME !

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:

VoIP is a contender wherever you can get reliable IP connectivity at more than 300kbps and many rural areas can also have cable phone and cellular.

Key being wherever you can get reliable IP connectivity... not a whole lot of ISPs that come even close to meeting that requirement when compared to the reliability of POTS.