jfmezeiPremium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:22 | reply to Jurjen
Re: How would I request the elimination of the touch-tone fee? Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee.
I think this the reason touch tone was never integrated into the base fee.
On the other hand, they could have integrated the $2.75 into the base fee and given a $2.75 rotary service rebate to those few grandmothers still on grandfathered rotary service because they haven't made any changes to their phone lines since the days where touch tone became mandatory for all new lines. |
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| said by jfmezei:Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee.
I think this the reason touch tone was never integrated into the base fee.
On the other hand, they could have integrated the $2.75 into the base fee and given a $2.75 rotary service rebate to those few grandmothers still on grandfathered rotary service because they haven't made any changes to their phone lines since the days where touch tone became mandatory for all new lines.
The irony is that the touch tone equipment, being solid state, costs much less to maintain than its fully-mechanical rotary counterpart. Additionally, you can cram many more touch tone switches into a rack than you can fit rotary switches, which leads to decreased real-estate costs for touch tone users, as well. Additionally, most common touch tone switches can also handle rotary dialing.
The fact is that upgrading to touch tone equipment is a one time cost for Bell, followed by reduced maintenance and location costs, which, over a relatively short time, works out cheaper for Bell than the old rotary equipment, yet they want to charge a monthly fee for this. Phone companies in the US (at least, those I've dealt with) charge a fee for rotary service, though in most areas it's just a matter of setting a bit in the switch configuration; there are areas still that are serviced by rotary equipment, I'm not sure whether those areas pay an additional fee for the service. No fee for touch tone service here, because our carriers recognize the benefit to having as many people as possibly using the service; it costs them less, all around, so they make more without adding another fee to the bell. I think even the telcos themselves, down here, realize they've added all the fees they can get away with to our bills. |
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 mlernerPremium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5 | reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee.
As if they couldn't tell the billing system to pull records where line is rotary and only apply the line fee to those customers. Come on JF it's a cash grab, they make millions off it. |
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| reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee. One of my aunts lives in a village that had 5-digits local phone numbers until 10-digit dialing rules came up and she had touch-tone... so the number of people who cannot have touch-tone must be really tiny by now. |
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jfmezeiPremium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:22 | reply to mlerner
said by mlerner:[
Come on JF it's a cash grab, they make millions off it.
What if it costs Bell $20 to provide the service ? If the base rate is $17.25 and they tag on a $2.75 touch tone fee, then it isn't a cash grab because the total reflects the real costs.
So you would have to prove that the base costs covers the costs associated with the touch tone and that touch tone hardware was fully amortized decades ago.
Proving that the base fee covers all the costs of the telco (especially when all those costs are expressed in proprietary "#") is a tall order.
You would have more chances of getting the CRTC to conform that Bell would be allowed to start VoIp service that would not be regulated throughput its territory, even in areas where POTS is still regulated.
Bell wants to get rid of POTS, just like he wants to get rid of its pay phones. |
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jfmezeiPremium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:22 | reply to InvalidError
Invalid, it isn't "the number of people who cannot have touch tone". Everyone can get touch tone.
But when the touch tone fee was made mandatory, it applied only to new installations and those that were already on touch tone.
Those who were on rotary at the time were given waivers where there would not be charged the Touch Tone fee for as long as their phone line remained that way.
There are even rumours that Bell spent money to block touch tone dialing on those grand fathered lines. |
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 nitzguyPremium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
·TekSavvy DSL
| said by jfmezei:Invalid, it isn't "the number of people who cannot have touch tone". Everyone can get touch tone.
But when the touch tone fee was made mandatory, it applied only to new installations and those that were already on touch tone.
Those who were on rotary at the time were given waivers where there would not be charged the Touch Tone fee for as long as their phone line remained that way.
There are even rumours that Bell spent money to block touch tone dialing on those grand fathered lines.
Incorrect. All lines whether or not the fee is being charged, can receive touch tone service...Unless you're truly in the wilderness or on a super ancient CO, all switches have been upgraded to touch tone...its just a "billing" issue...at this point...Have to wait for all those old people to die before it gets rolled into the monthly price... |
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 elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand | reply to jfmezei
NM |
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 AVDRespice, Adspice, ProspicePremium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1 | reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee.
My dad refused to pay for touch-tone service, and one day it just worked. It was probably easier to convert everyone over than piecemeal each sub.
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DavesnothereNo-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
join:2009-06-15
START&Cogeco
kudos:6 | reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:Rememer that you still have a few places with grandfathered rotary service and they do not pay touch tone fee.
I think this the reason touch tone was never integrated into the base fee.
On the other hand, they could have integrated the $2.75 into the base fee and given a $2.75 rotary service rebate to those few grandmothers still on grandfathered rotary service because they haven't made any changes to their phone lines since the days where touch tone became mandatory for all new lines.
The CRTC approval of which was just one slide of many on the slippery slope for B$ELL to charge everyone more for something which originally cost less to administrate.
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(2) That they already HAVE !
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DavesnothereNo-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
join:2009-06-15
START&Cogeco
kudos:6 | reply to BronsCon
said by BronsCon:The irony is that the touch tone equipment, being solid state, costs much less to maintain than its fully-mechanical rotary counterpart. Additionally, you can cram many more touch tone switches into a rack than you can fit rotary switches, which leads to decreased real-estate costs for touch tone users, as well. Additionally, most common touch tone switches can also handle rotary dialing.
The fact is that upgrading to touch tone equipment is a one time cost for Bell, followed by reduced maintenance and location costs, which, over a relatively short time, works out cheaper for Bell than the old rotary equipment, yet they want to charge a monthly fee for this. Phone companies in the US (at least, those I've dealt with) charge a fee for rotary service, though in most areas it's just a matter of setting a bit in the switch configuration; there are areas still that are serviced by rotary equipment, I'm not sure whether those areas pay an additional fee for the service. No fee for touch tone service here, because our carriers recognize the benefit to having as many people as possibly using the service; it costs them less, all around, so they make more without adding another fee to the bell. I think even the telcos themselves, down here, realize they've added all the fees they can get away with to our bills.
So it STILL costs B$ELL less to offer TT than Pulse ?
SHAME !  |
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DavesnothereNo-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
join:2009-06-15
START&Cogeco
kudos:6
1 edit | reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:....There are even rumours that Bell spent money to block touch tone dialing on those grand fathered lines.
They absolutely DID, and the earliest method was a physical filter at the CO to make the CO not 'Hear' the TT if you tried to dial that way.
However, as soon as the connection was established using pulse, you could switch your phone to 'Tone' and access various services like telephone banking, etc.
My father did this until 2007, when he moved to a retirement home and got a new number, as the home was in a different community, and then had to take and pay for TT from B$ELL.
BTW, almost all calling features can be used without TT, yet B$ELL periodically promotes a bald-faced lie to the contrary, to try to coerce the remaining grandfathered pulse-peeps to give up pulse when they have not moved (the main criteria for ending grandfathering). |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to BronsCon
said by BronsCon: Phone companies in the US (at least, those I've dealt with) charge a fee for rotary service, though in most areas it's just a matter of setting a bit in the switch configuration; there are areas still that are serviced by rotary equipment, I'm not sure whether those areas pay an additional fee for the service. No fee for touch tone service here, because our carriers recognize the benefit to having as many people as possibly using the service; it costs them less, all around, so they make more without adding another fee to the bell. I think even the telcos themselves, down here, realize they've added all the fees they can get away with to our bills.
In Hawaii, Touch Tone is still billed separately at, I believe, a $3.50 monthly fee. Some folks accidentally got it switched on years ago and, because they never called Hawaiian Telcom's attention to it having been done have been getting it free all these years, but most pay that fee. My corded landline speaker phone has a switch to turn on or off Touch Tone. I sometimes accidentally turn it off when I am trying to turn off the ringer instead and then I use the phone to call someone and the "tones" sound weird but the call goes through.
As for other choices, there is the problem of 911 availability with other providers. It is very unwise to rely only on a cell phone or Time Warner Cable phone service which has NO backup power if the electricity goes off (which is frequent here) and the same with cell phones. 911 availability is why I keep my landline.
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| reply to Davesnothere
>the earliest method was a physical filter at the CO to make the CO not 'Hear' the TT if you tried to dial that way.
A physical filter would be very difficult (and expensive). Touch tone is within voice band, so the multiple notch filters also have to be extremely narrow (i.e. high Q) filters. More likely, they block the touch tone functionality on the linecard. |
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DavesnothereNo-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
join:2009-06-15
START&Cogeco
kudos:6 | said by Ott_Cable :A physical filter would be very difficult (and expensive). Touch tone is within voice band, so the multiple notch filters also have to be extremely narrow (i.e. high Q) filters. More likely, they block the touch tone functionality on the linecard.
That may have been an oversimplification, though it was explained to me that way back then.
But whatever it was, it originally cost them extra to accomplish the blocking (and may still today, some have posted here), which is a major point against charging more for TT than for Pulse. |
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| >But whatever it was, it originally cost them extra to accomplish the blocking
But that "filtering" would disappear after the dialing, so there will need to be a bypass that knows when the connection is done. Very likely the dialing function is simply disabled, but all the tones can pass. That is a lot easier, cleaner to implement.
May be they need to pay a software licensing option to do that. Or they simply don't disable that anymore. 10 digit dialing on pulse dial at 10 pulse per second with enough pauses between digits would mean it may be on average 6-7 seconds just for dialing on a keypad. On rotary phone (if they still have that) would be far worse. |
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| reply to Mele20
By all rights, Hawaii is another country, which the US invaded years ago and incorporated as a state. Much of the regulation we see in the continental 48 doesn't make its way over there, or to Alaska, for that matter. You phone company is ripping you off. |
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PX EliezerPremium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13 Reviews:
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| There was a class-action lawsuit against Hawaii Telephone for the touch-tone fee.
Plaintiffs lost because the court found that because the fee was a publicly-known part of the state-approved rates (tariffs), it was not subject to challenge.
»caselaw.findlaw.com/hi-supreme-c···287.html
Or as OJ's lawyer might have said:
"If the charge is admitted, it must be remitted".
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As a practical matter, most US POTS providers long ago stopped charging extra for Touch Tone.
That's because their systems have been digital for decades. Such an extra charge is absurd. |
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DavesnothereNo-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
join:2009-06-15
START&Cogeco
kudos:6 | said by PX Eliezer:....Such an extra charge is absurd.
As we all keep lamenting up here.  |
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jfmezeiPremium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:22 | reply to PX Eliezer
Bell Canada's continued charging for Touch Tone, long distance access fee and whatever other fees is indicative of a "what the market will bear" mentality.
"what the market will bear" signifiies lack of sufficient competition.
The fact that Videotron is eating Bell alive is not indicative of competition. It is indicative that people are so fed up with being milked that they will switch to anyone else who charges a bit less even if "charges a bit less" is still milking them dry.
And the fact that Bell is happy to continue to milk customers with those uncompetitive fees means that they are not in business to compete, they are in business to milk customers stupid enough to continue to pay horrendous and unjustified fees for just about everything.
What is sad is that Bell's recipe has so far worked with Bell more profitable milking a few customers compared to being competitive and gaining more customers.
However, I feel that Bell may have reached the limit where it is now losing more customers than its recipe planned for and it may be forced to start to compete eventually.
Addendum: I should have a "DSLR reading fee" of $1.25 per serious post I make. Ok, I wouldn't make that much money but still  |
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