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alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Basement renovation project

While the forums were down, I proceeded forward in the gutting of the basement for my renovation.



Don't worry, all those electric wires are disconnected.

For the walls, I'm going to be removing the current frame that's there, as it's 2x2 and I will need 2x4 to fit in roxul insulation.

I will be leaving the EPS boards already glued to the walls as they've done an okay job since they were originally installed some odd 20 years ago. You can see I removed a section of EPS to see how it was behind it. It was all good, no water drip stains.
So I will replace the part I ripped out and seal them properly with tuck tape and Great Stuff, then put up my 2x4 frame against it.

For the floor, I finally came up with a setup. Here's the list of materials in order from top to bottom:

1 - Laminate flooring (I will let the wife choose)
2 - OSD boards
3 - 1" or 1.5" XPS boards
4 - DeltaFL subfloor membrane. I might go with DeltaMS as it's half the price and the only difference is that the MS has a smell from recycled plastic.
5 - Landscaping fabric to not have the "click clock" sound from the DeltaFL hitting the concrete underneath when walking on the floor (As per DeltaFL manufacturer's recommendation).

Here's my overall plan for the materials I will be using




What do you guys think?


acadiel
Press fire to begin
Premium
join:2002-06-22
61705
kudos:2

Nice... love the diagram!



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

1 edit

said by acadiel:

Nice... love the diagram!

Thanks

And everything's to scale!!! /ScaleSkillsSuck

I want to add a slight modification. I'd tapcon from the OSD boards instead of the base plate.
Otherwise, I fear even the 4" tapcons wouldn't be long enough if I started on top of the base plate.

1 1/2" base plate (That's the real thickness right?)
3/4" OSD
1" XPS
1" DeltaFL
------
4 1/4" total thickness before hitting the concrete... yeah

So my tapcons would be placed right next to the frame base plate, but I'd screw the base plate to the OSD using wood screws.
Would that be okay?


UHF
All static, all day, Forever
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
reply to alkizmo

Never seen that Delta stuff before. Menards has something similar but it's attached to OSB in 2X2 foot tongue and groove sections and it's very pricey.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by UHF:

Never seen that Delta stuff before. Menards has something similar but it's attached to OSB in 2X2 foot tongue and groove sections and it's very pricey.

My response will sound as if I thought you recommended Menards Dricore instead. However I'm just putting up the information for everyone to see the logic in my decision of not using the very popular Dricore.

Delta is Canadian. You might be more familiar with Platon membrane (similar).

The menards thing you are talking about is dricore, which is very similar in principle and DeltaFL/MS has the same load bearing capacity as dricore.

As you said, Dricore is pricey. Using Dricore + XPS would cost 50% more AND cause complications as to where to put the XPS, as I don't want it to be directly under my melanine floor. So I might need a second layer of OSB.

Also the Dricore plastic bumps won't completely seal off moisture from the OSB, as there is going to be a slight opening between each square.

With DeltaFL/MS, it's huge rolls that you tape together with tuck tape, so it's nicely sealed. Then I'll have the XPS over it, which is another protective layer from moisture rising up.

Dricore's only advantage is ease of installation.

Cost comparison for 400 sqft of floor * Landscaping fabric not included as cost is minor and be used in both scenarios.

DeltaFL/MS + XPS + OSB
--------------------------
160$ DeltaFL
425$ XPS
190$ OSB 3/4
----------
775$

Dricore + XPS (Thinner OSB used over XPS)
--------------------------
700$ (100x dricores)
425$ XPS
125$ OSB 1/2
----------
1,250$

That's 475$ more (Or 61% more). Not really worth it.


UHF
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reply to alkizmo

Not recommending Dri-Core at all! I like the idea of it, but the price scared me away. Had I known about alternatives I probably would have considered them.

In the end, no insulation, I just glued VCT tile to the concrete. But I have dogs that like to sneak into the basement to pee, and my garage connects to my basement, so always tracking in dirt, mud, snow, etc, so VCT wasn't so bad in my case.

Thanks for the comparison! Great info.



UHF
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reply to alkizmo

Also, not sure the cost difference, but I'm a huge fan of XPS foam against the walls rather than EPS. I'd be really tempted to replace it. I know you said it stays dry, so maybe it's not worth it in your case. Just throwing in another of my 2 more cents



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

1 edit

said by UHF:

In the end, no insulation, I just glued VCT tile to the concrete. But I have dogs that like to sneak into the basement to pee, and my garage connects to my basement, so always tracking in dirt, mud, snow, etc, so VCT wasn't so bad in my case.

Well for the "utility" parts of the basement I will probably also glue directly some tile. However the family room section, it would get too cold to walk on the floor in socks in the winter.

said by UHF:

Also, not sure the cost difference, but I'm a huge fan of XPS foam against the walls rather than EPS. I'd be really tempted to replace it. I know you said it stays dry, so maybe it's not worth it in your case. Just throwing in another of my 2 more cents

The roxul rockwool is the real insulation. It's R14, so more than getting 2" XPS and costs less than half of what XPS costs per SQF.

For the EPS, well, it's already there. The only way to justify replacing EPS with XPS is if I don't buy the rockwool. But to attain at least R12, I'd need 2.5" XPS, which runs about... uhh 50$ per 4 feet wide panels, so 17 panels = 850$

For roxul, I'd need 9 packs at 40$ a pack = 360$

That's 490$ more just to use XPS instead of keeping the old EPS and adding Roxul


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to alkizmo

On a side note, my uncle from Winnipeg was here over the winter. We put up some sheetrock and he kept referring to it as Gyproc. Is that a Canadian thing?



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

Gyproc is a brand name but also is the short name for gypsum rock (Gyprock), which is what is used in drywall.
Some people here (Quebec) also call it gypsum, gyps, etc.

Sheetrock and drywall are also used. I keep going back and forth between those names, depending of the day and if I speak French or English.



SwedishRider
Rider on the Storm
Premium
join:2006-01-11
not Sweden
kudos:1
reply to alkizmo

Looks like a good plan.

When I finished my basement, I didn't go nearly that complicated over the concrete floor. I used a higher end vapor barrier under higher end laminate that was rated for use right over concrete. It's been finished for about 2 years now with no problems and still looks great.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

1 edit

said by SwedishRider:

Looks like a good plan.

When I finished my basement, I didn't go nearly that complicated over the concrete floor. I used a higher end vapor barrier under higher end laminate that was rated for use right over concrete. It's been finished for about 2 years now with no problems and still looks great.

But how cold does your floor feel?
I mean I'm spending good money on the XPS insulation (At least 300$). But the DeltaFL/MS would do the moisture barrier part. It should also help keeping the floor warmer.

As for complicated... well, ya, a lot of layers, but fairly quick to lay down. The laminate is what's long to install


SwedishRider
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not Sweden
kudos:1

said by alkizmo:

said by SwedishRider:

Looks like a good plan.

When I finished my basement, I didn't go nearly that complicated over the concrete floor. I used a higher end vapor barrier under higher end laminate that was rated for use right over concrete. It's been finished for about 2 years now with no problems and still looks great.

But how cold does your floor feel?
I mean I'm spending good money on the XPS insulation (At least 300$). But the DeltaFL/MS would do the moisture barrier part. It should also help keeping the floor warmer.

As for complicated... well, ya, a lot of layers, but fairly quick to lay down. The laminate is what's long to install

Not bad really. In the winter it's obviously the coldest part of the room, but you could still walk around on it with bare feet and not feel frigid. And I have forced hot air for heat on it's own zone in that finished space.

My house might be the exception in it's design though... I'm built into a steep hill on two sides only, so my finished basement has 2 walls completely out of the ground and the concrete floor was poured above grade, so there is no possibility of hydrostatic pressure buildup. I do think that has an impact on the temperature of the floor itself, but I'm not sure.


cypherstream
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
kudos:3
reply to alkizmo

I'm actually about to do this to my lower family room as well. I have old dark wood paneling and I'm pretty sure its furring strips or 2x2's. I think next weekend me and a buddy of mine are going to rip it out.

Do you recommend drylock or if you put those foam panels against the concrete walls, would drylock even be necessary ?

hey don't forget to run speaker wires and data or new coax! I'm going to run speaker wires, some cat 5 and new rg6 quad shield. Also changing all the backstabbed brown outlets and switches to proper screw terminal style white outlets and switches.

Hopefully the thicker insulation your putting in, and that I'm planning to put in really helps keep the heat in during the winter!



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by cypherstream:

Do you recommend drylock or if you put those foam panels against the concrete walls, would drylock even be necessary ?

Most of the recommendations/guides I found only suggested foam boards against the concrete, or at the very least, a 1" gap between the frame wood and the concrete. If you google "drylock concrete wall" you'll find mostly people saying NOT to use it because it traps moisture in the concrete walls and cause degradation of the concrete.

What you want is a moisture DIFFUSER/Retardant against the concrete. It will let the moisture go through, but slowly enough so it can dry out once it gets in your basement.

All you need you need is a vapor barrier between the drywall and frame.

said by cypherstream:

hey don't forget to run speaker wires and data or new coax! I'm going to run speaker wires, some cat 5 and new rg6 quad shield. Also changing all the backstabbed brown outlets and switches to proper screw terminal style white outlets and switches.

I will most likely put up a suspended ceiling, so that will give flexibility for installing extra cables. But I will run two CAT6 lines on the exterior walls (Interior walls are shared with the utility room, inside which I leave the walls exposed).

said by cypherstream:

Hopefully the thicker insulation your putting in, and that I'm planning to put in really helps keep the heat in during the winter!

That's how it works right?


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to alkizmo

"Don't worry, all those electric wires are disconnected."

It's sad that every time someone makes a post they have to throw disclaimers in it?



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by battleop:

It's sad that every time someone makes a post they have to throw disclaimers in it?

I see it more like that people here are attentive to safety issues


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to alkizmo

Click for full size
Storage room
Click for full size
Room placement
How should I finish this little section? It will only be used for storage, but I'd like it clean... ish.

The current floor is some sort of epoxy that's breaking off since it's probably as old as the house itself.

Most important question is what to do with the walls.

The room is 5 feet wide with bare concrete walls. If i put 2x4s + dry wall, it would become 4 feet wide. I can't waste any space in there. I'm thinking of putting thin XPS + furring strips for the dry wall.

I will only invest on good insulation for the ceiling above it, since there's living space above. But that room itself doesn't deserve much more than 3/4" XPS. It's connecting to the utility room and the utility room won't have much insulation itself as the hot water tank, furnace, electrical panel, etc are pretty close to the concrete walls themselves.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to alkizmo

I think it's similar to yelling "FIRST!" in a post. It's easy to be an online critic but I often wonder how many of these online critics really practice what they preach.


MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to alkizmo


1) Don't use OSB - use real plywood instead. It's more durable and won't delaminate as OSB as a tendency to do when used as flooring if there's ANY moisture. Plywood is also stiffer and holds fasteners better.

2) Use a double top & bottom plate (ie. 2 layers of horizontal 2x4 at the top & bottom of the walls. The reasons are that a) it gives you extra nailing surface for crown moldings and baseboards; b) it stiffens the walls which are perpendicular to the ceiling joists .... which stiffens the floor above.

3) There's no real need for the landscape fabric.

4) Use a few Delta wall anchors to tack the FL/MS down to the floor while you are working with it - keeps the FL/MS from sliding around.

5) Your heating bill & feet will prefer having 2" of Dow blue Styrofoam SM underfoot. Don't use the pink Owens Corning stuff - it's much more brittle.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by MaynardKrebs:

1) Don't use OSB - use real plywood instead. It's more durable and won't delaminate as OSB as a tendency to do when used as flooring if there's ANY moisture. Plywood is also stiffer and holds fasteners better.

If it's stiffer, can I go down to 1/2" ?

said by MaynardKrebs:

2) Use a double top & bottom plate (ie. 2 layers of horizontal 2x4 at the top & bottom of the walls. The reasons are that a) it gives you extra nailing surface for crown moldings and baseboards; b) it stiffens the walls which are perpendicular to the ceiling joists .... which stiffens the floor above.

Ok, will do.

said by MaynardKrebs:

3) There's no real need for the landscape fabric.

Clic-clac-clicky-clack!
If the DeltaMS/FL's plastic tips don't ALL make constant touch to the concrete floor, then walking on it will make some noise. On a very big Subfloor thread on Redflagdeals (Canadian forum) a lot of people were recommending it and others who didn't use it said they sometimes heard that noise. Even the manufacturer suggests it.

It's not like landscape fabric costs much. If I go for the ultimate premium heavy duty fabric, it will cost 70$ for the whole surfance.
If I go standard, it will cost me 20$.

said by MaynardKrebs:

4) Use a few Delta wall anchors to tack the FL/MS down to the floor while you are working with it - keeps the FL/MS from sliding around.

While I could get by with a box of 50 delta anchors (11$) I don't see how they'd penetrate the concrete floor.

If you say they hold long enough until I get around to the tapcons, then okay.

said by MaynardKrebs:

5) Your heating bill & feet will prefer having 2" of Dow blue Styrofoam SM underfoot. Don't use the pink Owens Corning stuff - it's much more brittle.

I can see where the material is sold (Rona). I'll see if I can take the cost increase.

MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

I hear what you are saying (no pun intended) about the 'squeak' you may hear from the FL/MS.

The Delta anchors are held via concrete nails. Suggest you use a 2'x4' sheet of plywood as a sliding 'platform' to walk on as you lay the FL/MS - this will apply pressure to keep it flat as you nail the anchors in just past the edge of the plywood. By nailing the FL down, you also help eliminate the squeak the FL might cause later (ie. no bulges to flatten). Work from one corner outwards to flatten it down.

Use the lowest profile FL/MS they have - this will still provide the airgap, and it will minimize the possibility of squeaks.

Even if you stay with 1" foam, still use the DOW product - it's less likely to break/compress than the Owens Corning.

If you want to reduce the subfloor thickness, don't go less than 5/8". Don't forget that it will be stiffened a bit by the foam underneath - especially if it is 2" foam & if you use low-profile FL/MS. Go to Rona and lay some foam on the floor, then lay a sheet of plywood on top, and then walk on it. Decide which feels acceptable to you before you purchase the materials.

How are you fastening the finished flooring? Often the manufacturer of that will specify subfloor thickness.

If you decide to lay the sole plate of the stud walls right on the concrete instead of on top of the subfloor, place a strip of foam sill gasket under the 2x4 to keep the wood from directly touching the concrete, or use a piece of rubber roofing membrane stuck to the bottom of the 2x4 - sill gasket is better. Do NOT use pressure treated lumber inside the house.



UHF
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join:2002-05-24
Reviews:
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said by MaynardKrebs:

Do NOT use pressure treated lumber inside the house.

Why not? I'm told it's code locally for sill plates installed over concrete, even with a sill gasket.

MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

1 edit

said by UHF:

said by MaynardKrebs:

Do NOT use pressure treated lumber inside the house.

Why not? I'm told it's code locally for sill plates installed over concrete, even with a sill gasket.

Code is different in different jurisdictions, ie. Canada vs. US, one state vs. another, etc.... and built to 'code' means that you use the correct fasteners.

Older pressure-treating chemicals (CCA) included arsenic, which off-gassed and are carcinogenic.

Newer PT chemicals don't have arsenic/chromium in them any longer but the new chemicals are much more reactive vs. steel. You need to use stainless steel nails or double hot-dipped galvanized nails with the new chemicals. New chemical PT lumber can totally corrode through nails/brackets/screws not properly protected within 12 months if the circumstances are right, thus providing NO structural soundness.

Most DIY's don't know.


UHF
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said by MaynardKrebs:

New chemical PT lumber can totally corrode through nails/brackets/screws not properly protected within 12 months if the circumstances are right, thus providing NO structural soundness.

You certainly raise an excellent point. I didn't think about that when I did mine. I used coated construction screws for the stud to plate connections, but is nailed to the concrete with plain old galvanized nails. Oops. Good thing the wall sections fit snugly between the floor and the joists above!


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

How are you fastening the finished flooring? Often the manufacturer of that will specify subfloor thickness.

I haven't decided on the floor I will buy. All I know is that it will be laminate, so most likely lock&fold.

Question regarding the current frame on my exterior walls:

I know in my previous thread (Currently not available) I said I'd get rid of the frame, but I have found a good way to get rid of what I tear down (Already disposed of a lot). However my method wouldn't work for disposing of the old frame. There are way too many nails and they're extremely difficult to remove.

Considering that, could I just put up a new 2x3 frame over the old one? It would give a total of 3.5 inch thickness for the Roxul insulation.

The current 2x2 frame was nailed to the concrete floor with a few nails to the concrete wall.

The wood itself is in perfect state with no staining.

I'd seal the EPS with Great Stuff instead of tuck tape (As I wouldn't be able to do so with a frame over it) and line up the new frame perfectly with the old frame.

Note: I dont know if there is a protective material under the sole plate of the old frame, but considering it's been there since the 80s, it seems to have done VERY well (No sign of deterioration).

MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

said by alkizmo:

Considering that, could I just put up a new 2x3 frame over the old one? It would give a total of 3.5 inch thickness for the Roxul insulation.

If it were me, I'd rip the old stuff out.

If you're bound and determined to 'furr' the old wall out, there are two choices -

a) trying to attach new wood to the old
or
b) just build a new 2x3 wall a few inches in front of the old wall and then use the R22 Roxul (you'll have a nominal 6" wall cavity then). You may find that 2x3 and 2x4 lumber is nearly the same price.

A 2x3 wall never have the structural strength of a real 2x4 wall either way, but it may not matter in your case - but if you decide you want the structural strength then I'd advise ripping out the old framing and installing new 2x4.

Since the underlying framing is rather thin, driving nails/screws into in may cause splitting, thereby reducing the holding power of the connection of old lumber to new. I'd advise that you use PL400 polyurethane glue to glue the new wood to the old in addition to nails/screws. Just run a bead of the PL400 down the old lumber and then press and nail the new to it.

Also given the likely propensity for the old lumber to crack, consider drilling small pilot holes for screws.

BTW - the 1" EPS and the R14 Roxul is only about R17. Does building code in your area call for R20-R22 for all new work?


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by MaynardKrebs:

If it were me, I'd rip the old stuff out.

"I would" is easier than "I did"

Ripping out the old stuff was first in mind, then I got hit by the reality of the gutting job. Once I finished clearing up and only have the old frame standing, I will re-consider my two options.

said by MaynardKrebs:

BTW - the 1" EPS and the R14 Roxul is only about R17. Does building code in your area call for R20-R22 for all new work?

It's R12 for basements in Quebec (I just confirmed that).
R22 is code for exterior walls (Not in basement)

I started off writing a long response to you, but I think I found a super middle ground.

I'm considering more and more to go with 2x4 + R22. The R22 would only cost me 120$ more anyway, at a bigger R/$ value.

Here's where I'm going with this:

I'd put a 2x4 frame 0.5" away from the old 2x2. The 2x4 frame will hold itself up completely like a normal partition wall and will line up with the 2x2 studs.

1.5" 2x2
0.5" Separation
3.5" 2x4
----
5.5" cavities

- I don't have to remove the old 2x2
- I don't have to attach the 2x4 frame to the 2x2
- I still have a solid 2x4 structure
- I can fit R22 roxul in there

How's that?

MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

Perfect.

Don't assume that the old wall is square.
Use Pythagorean 5-12-13 triangle to lay out adjacent walls square (or a 90 degree laser).

Potentially use some scraps of 1/2" plywood to act as a spacer between the old framing and the new so you get the full 5.5" cavity.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

1 edit

Great, so everyone's satisfied with the solution

One little question: You gave me two ways to put my sole plate.

A - On the subfloor
B - Over the concrete, with a foam sill gasket underneath.

Are either ones okay? If so, I'll go with the foam sill gasket, so that my 2x4 sole plate is near the same level as the 2x2.

Would this be the type of sill gasket you suggested?
»www.homedepot.ca/product/foamsea···6/905955

said by MaynardKrebs:

Perfect.

Don't assume that the old wall is square.
Use Pythagorean 5-12-13 triangle to lay out adjacent walls square (or a 90 degree laser).

Potentially use some scraps of 1/2" plywood to act as a spacer between the old framing and the new so you get the full 5.5" cavity.

Well I actually would square my new frame with the room starting from the corner with the longest walls on each angle and trace where the sole plates will go.

I'll adjust so that I have minimum 1/2" separation even if it means increasing the separation else where.

I'd rather have a perfectly aligned walls with perfect 90 degree angles than maintain a constant 1/2" separation. It's not like I can't adjust the roxul thickness by trimming it.