| Vodka v Method heroic mode DS race Hey y'all,
I recently watched the Vodka v Method 25 heroic mode DS charity race (no buff) and was blown away at how easily the pros handle the heroic mode fights. Both finished in something just over an hour, and there was only about a 3 second differential between the two guilds (Vodka had one wipe using an underhealing strategy, and would have overtaken Method despite the wipe if it didn't lose a player on Madness to the platform switching glitch). My mediocre guild can do a 10 man non-heroic in around 2 hours without rushing or dawdling, and probably will have a wipe or two during that time.
Can any pros out there point out some of the tricks / strategies Vodka and Method were using on specific fights that might help elevate mediocre players like me into really good players?
The most obvious thing I saw was on the Hagara fight where both guilds took down the lightning phase almost instantly -- their strats obviously required every raid member to know exactly where they were near the transition, be aware that the transition was coming, and move to their assigned spot immediately. I think that's 2 levels of raid awareness past where my guild is at. It's hard enough to get 10 people to run in a circle without spreading out or clumping up too much!
Anyway, insight is appreciated, and if you haven't seen it, it's worth a look! I don't have the link, but it's on youtube. |
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KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | These guilds are sponsored and they live to raid.
pretty much they have a shitload of practice, they know the tiniest aspects of every phase. Their characters are min maxed with math that would make a PHD at NASA say WTF.
Really there is no way to get as good as them without playing as much as they do in raids. Just as you cant be the next home run hero by hitting a baseball a few hours a day 2-3d a week.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports |
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| reply to Poornoob
If you watch some mikpreachwow videos on youtube he talks about what it takes to raid with Method. He was in Method in Wrath or BC and is now a trial with the guild. When new content comes out they expect their main raid group to take 7-9 days off of work and spend at least 20 hours a day raiding to complete the content. That is another reason they have world top ten kills. |
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| reply to Poornoob
They had another one of these last weekend. With blood legion stars paragon and some russian guild. You might want to check out if the vod is out. I was surprised at how popular it was there was over 50k people watching the stream. |
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| reply to Kearnstd
I certainly don't expect to get to their level -- I don't have that much time to put in, and even if I did, my guild doesn't -- but I was hoping that ppl might have some insight beyond don't stand in the fire and know the kill order.
For example, in the Blackhorn fight, they kited the Vykrul to whichever drake was reeled into the deck, so they could take advantage of AoEs. My guild tanks had been tanking the two Vykul together, but hadn't been dragging them to the drake. A general principle that all raiders could learn from that is to look for opportunities to maximize AoE on multiple adds.
I'm sure I'll look at the vid again at some point, but it'd be nice to know what I'm looking for. |
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 JBEveryday Normal Guy
join:2009-05-14
 ·Cogeco Cable
| Sadly, there's not much left aside from not stand in fire, memorize your 3 button rotation and make sure you have good coordinated healers...... Anything you can do to make the raid easier = a good idea. Use cooldowns that aren't being, maximize damage output, multi-dotting, etc.
To a point you can't always have someone holding your hand, you have to think for yourself, the above is a solid start though.
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Here's the final bullet,
to put our love to death. |
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 ImmerGentlemanPremium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:6 | So far, Blackhorn has been the first fight where I simply cannot talk the raid through the fight. Can't happen. We discuss everyone's role... then give it a go... review what went wrong, try again. Hope to give it a try again this week. |
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| reply to JB
said by JB:Sadly, there's not much left aside from not stand in fire, memorize your 3 button rotation and make sure you have good coordinated healers...... Anything you can do to make the raid easier = a good idea. Use cooldowns that aren't being, maximize damage output, multi-dotting, etc.
To a point you can't always have someone holding your hand, you have to think for yourself, the above is a solid start though.
Frankly, there's plenty more than this. For example, on fights where adds are going to pop, as a dps or off-tank, I'll change my camera angle so I can see the spawn location, which allows me to locate that much faster than if I'm looking straight ahead at the boss. I suspect that's a trick that most non-pro raiders don't use. On fights with multiple targets, I'll have a targeting macro that will automatically go to the highest priority target. That's 2 tips that every raider can put in his play book. Add that to being completely spacially aware of the fight area, being in position ahead of the mechanic instead of reacting to it, and being aware of AoE maximixing situations from my prior posts, and that's five tips on raiding over and above don't stand in the fire.
Here are more tips: Call out when you're accepting a b-rez so the healers are ready to top you off; Warriors should prioritize heroic leap over intercept or charge when switching targets because of the damage it does; if you have a dk on a fight where you have to prevent something from getting somewhere, use deathgrip when it is close to where it's trying to get to.
I'm sure that pro tanks have tricks on how to position the boss that are way above facing him away from the raid; pro melee have tricks on how to move from one target to the next quickly; maybe there are tips on how to group the raid, etc. It's knowing these little things that turn your typical LFR doofus into a real raider, and a real raider into a pro.
I'm not talking about hand-holding. I'm talking about adding to my toolbag so maybe when my raid is struggling on something, I can say "hey, why don't we try this?" Yeah, a lot of this is knowing your class, and everyone else's class on top of that. Maybe my question is just too general; or maybe everyone thinks what they know is just too obvious; or maybe people on here haven't really thought about it. But specific recurring cases can be distilled into general principles that can be applied to different situations. That's what I'm asking about. |
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cigtymeCoonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA
kudos:1 | No matter what pro tips you bring up, the one thing these "pros" have on us is hours spent raiding. You cannot duplicate time. They spend more time in the beta learning these fights than regular guilds will spend the whole time the current patch is active. I know your little tips may help, but time is the reason the VODKA's of the world can down it in 1 hour. Time also teaches these tricks you speak of. They have been beta farming this while you were still on Shannox.
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Cigtyme - Alliance - Galakrond - Draneri Arcane Mage
GM and RL of Exalted with Chuck Norris (Before damn Commercial)
"What the hell man, wipe it, we fricken can't heal this damn thing to death" |
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| Yes, I have no doubt that the time spent in dungeon is the single biggest factor in their skill level and learning raiding skills. But, I also think knowing a tip or skill and understanding what it is about speeds up the learning process. You might as well say "if you want to learn pitch, you have to spend your time pitching." That's true, but you'll learn faster, and understand what you are doing better, and have to do fewer problems, if you have a conceptual grasp of what you're doing rather than just blindly throwing ball after ball. How much faster will you learn to pitch if someone shows you how to grip a cutter? If someone shares that tip with me on attempt 10, I can start practicing that grip instead of trying to figure out "what's a cutter?" Am I the only one that gets that???? |
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| reply to Poornoob
Pornboob is right.
Lot's of things you can learn. Lot's of ways to get rusty and lazy.
Some people think they are good when really they have never been a group that does anything hard. And so they have no reason to improve. |
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cymraegThread KillerPremium
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE Reviews:
·Great Plains Com..
| reply to Poornoob
that is true but just because you know how to hold the ball, if you cant practice it for the amount of time you need to perfect it what help does it really give you, and if your teammates arent up to speed with you then you being that much better than they are just makes it frustrating to you and them.
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Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!
I've lost the bleeps, I've lost the creeps and I've lost the sweeps. |
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| reply to Threatco
If only that was really his name...That would be funny
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There cannot be a crisis next week. My schedule is already full.
- Henry Kissinger
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cigtymeCoonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA
kudos:1 | No matter what time spent is the key not holding a damn ball. If you learn a tip on hold the damn ball, it still takes time throwing this damn ball to perfect it. Just with a tip you will not perfectly execute a cutter, after 1000 cutters you should know how to throw it correctly. |
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ImmerGentlemanPremium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·Comcast
| reply to Poornoob
said by Poornoob :Yes, I have no doubt that the time spent in dungeon is the single biggest factor in their skill level and learning raiding skills. But, I also think knowing a tip or skill and understanding what it is about speeds up the learning process....
As a corollary to your argument, some activities (like golf and tennis) are prone to development of horrible habits when practiced without proper foreknowledge. In the case of golf, you may spend months unlearning what you "taught yourself" at the driving range... when a few hours of lessons would have avoided the problems in the first place.
However, some tips are meaningless the would-be raider, until said raider has actually seen the mechanic a couple of times... then they get their light-bulb moment, and all is well with the raid.
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Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego
than/then | to/two/too | A lot (notice the space in there) | you/your/you're |
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cigtymeCoonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA
kudos:1 | Look i will agree tip or tricks can be learned to be a better raider, but this also goes with bring the player, not the class. Some players are just better. Kind of like Speed for an athlete. It is not something really learned, you either have it or not. Sure you can work on getting faster, but really it is something you are born with. Just like being good at activities like WoW. Some people you can explain the button boss to 100 times and they still die to the button boss 50% of the time or greater. Then take this to the next level of Heroics an oh my. The heroic button boss adds another person out and more fading lights. It is a recipe for disaster.
My thinking is we can argue all we want about this, but i truly feel some people are just better at raiding then others. The lacking players can learn tips, tricks, and spend time practicing, but some people will just "get it" faster.
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Cigtyme - Alliance - Galakrond - Draneri Arcane Mage
GM and RL of Exalted with Chuck Norris (Before damn Commercial)
"What the hell man, wipe it, we fricken can't heal this damn thing to death" |
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ImmerGentlemanPremium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:6 Reviews:
·Comcast
| said by cigtyme:i truly feel some people are just better at raiding than others. The lacking players can learn tips, tricks, and spend time practicing, but some people will just "get it" faster. Agreed. That does not preclude the need to share tips, tricks, and starts... it merely implies the reduction of expectation might be in order. |
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| reply to cigtyme
said by cigtyme:Look i will agree tip or tricks can be learned to be a better raider, but this also goes with bring the player, not the class. Some players are just better. Kind of like Speed for an athlete. It is not something really learned, you either have it or not. Sure you can work on getting faster, but really it is something you are born with. Just like being good at activities like WoW. Some people you can explain the button boss to 100 times and they still die to the button boss 50% of the time or greater. Then take this to the next level of Heroics an oh my. The heroic button boss adds another person out and more fading lights. It is a recipe for disaster.
My thinking is we can argue all we want about this, but i truly feel some people are just better at raiding then others. The lacking players can learn tips, tricks, and spend time practicing, but some people will just "get it" faster.
I don't dispute anything you are saying; but you're giving up without trying, and worse, arguing that it's useless for me or anyone else to try. Show me how to grip the cutter, and I'll try throwing it; maybe I'll get it, maybe I won't. It may be that I just don't have the physical talent, but can understand how the cutter works and can teach it to someone else. Maybe I'll be able to throw a passable cutter that gets a swing an miss every once in a while. Or maybe, once I understand how to grip the ball, I'll be the next Mariano Rivera. But if nobody teaches me and I never try to learn, I've failed before I started. Isn't the whole point of this type of listserv to share knowledge? If nobody here knows and can't figure it out, I'm good with that -- but don't tell me it's useless even to try! |
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| One other coment: The responses seem to think I'm asking for tips in hopes of an easy shortcut to becoming as good as Vodka and Method. Really, the race made me realize how weak my skills are, and have inspired me to improve much the way watching, say, watching Blake Griffin doing a monster slam might inspire a kid to practice basketball. I don't think I will ever become as good as they are, but that doesn't mean I can't learn from what they do. Maybe I don't have the physical skills to do a monster jam, but that doesn't mean I can't learn to do a pick-and-roll. |
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cigtymeCoonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA
kudos:1 | So instead of a monster crit Arcane Blast you will perfect an iceblock lol. |
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