| reply to pnjunction
Re: Speed limiters on trucks declared unconstitutional said by pnjunction:Sure but it does change things if they have to put the costs in their prices instead of getting them out of us through taxes.
Either way - road repairs have to be paid for.
I'd prefer if it were a direct levy like NY does on the Thruway.
That money is legislatively guaranteed to go to Thruway maintenance & expansion.
I'd rather it be done through government levies right on the highway itself than profits handed up-front to a private company selling goods - who would only find a way to transfer-price their profits outside the country or otherwise reduce their tax burden close to zero.
Not many of you will know/remember that there used to be tolls on the QEW Hamilton or Welland Canal skyway bridge (I forget which one it was) which was used to finance its construction. IIRC the toll was in-place for 20 years and then removed once the capital cost and interest on the cost was paid back. |
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 nitzguyPremium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
 ·TekSavvy DSL
| said by MaynardKrebs:said by pnjunction:Sure but it does change things if they have to put the costs in their prices instead of getting them out of us through taxes.
Either way - road repairs have to be paid for. I'd prefer if it were a direct levy like NY does on the Thruway. That money is legislatively guaranteed to go to Thruway maintenance & expansion. I'd rather it be done through government levies right on the highway itself than profits handed up-front to a private company selling goods - who would only find a way to transfer-price their profits outside the country or otherwise reduce their tax burden close to zero. Not many of you will know/remember that there used to be tolls on the QEW Hamilton or Welland Canal skyway bridge (I forget which one it was) which was used to finance its construction. IIRC the toll was in-place for 20 years and then removed once the capital cost and interest on the cost was paid back. I believe that was the Burlington skyway...they had tokens, it was quite quaint if I recall...
That being said, ok, so the truck can do 120, 130, 149, whatever...great...now as a trucker I can legally get 200km further in a day..(I'm hoping for no more than a 12 hour day here but...I'm sure they drive probably 16 or more), but I'm not really an expert when it comes to diesel engines, but isn't the fuel economy scale the same (I know that going from 90-100kph you spend 10% more in fuel, and the same going to 110kph, 10% more and 10% more if you go 120)...
So any "time savings" would be eaten up by extra fuel costs, meaning...net result still costs the same if not more? |
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 GonePremium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:3
·Start Communicat..
| said by nitzguy:I believe that was the Burlington skyway...they had tokens, it was quite quaint if I recall... It was both, and they were both removed from both skyways at the same time in 1973.
This is the Garden City skyway toll barrier looked like:
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nitzguyPremium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON | Noted for future reference....I didn't realize that both were...then again I don't get down Niagara way too often  |
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Robrr
join:2008-04-19
Mississauga, ON | reply to nitzguy
said by nitzguy:That being said, ok, so the truck can do 120, 130, 149, whatever...great...now as a trucker I can legally get 200km further in a day..(I'm hoping for no more than a 12 hour day here but...I'm sure they drive probably 16 or more), but I'm not really an expert when it comes to diesel engines, but isn't the fuel economy scale the same (I know that going from 90-100kph you spend 10% more in fuel, and the same going to 110kph, 10% more and 10% more if you go 120)...
So any "time savings" would be eaten up by extra fuel costs, meaning...net result still costs the same if not more?
In Canada, legal maximum is 13 driving hours and 14 "on-duty" hours in a day. Drivers also require 10 hours of off-duty time in a day.
Yes you are correct that just like any other vehicle, the faster you drive the more fuel you burn. The savings can be huge if you hold your speed back.
All the details on hours of service for trucks can be found here »www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/e···55_e.htm |
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 elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand
·Cybersurf Intern..
| reply to Gone
Because the capital cost, IIRC, of the bridges were paid for.
Toronto needs tolls at the edge of their borders to make the 905'ers pay for using our roads to get to work, but contributing nothing to the capital/maintenance costs of such roadways.
Once again those "Damn Harris Tories" screwed over Toronto, dumping the QEW east of the 427 to the Humber river on us, but providing next to nothing to maintain it and it was in bad shape when we got it.
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No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... |
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elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| reply to Robrr
said by Robrr:said by nitzguy:That being said, ok, so the truck can do 120, 130, 149, whatever...great...now as a trucker I can legally get 200km further in a day..(I'm hoping for no more than a 12 hour day here but...I'm sure they drive probably 16 or more), but I'm not really an expert when it comes to diesel engines, but isn't the fuel economy scale the same (I know that going from 90-100kph you spend 10% more in fuel, and the same going to 110kph, 10% more and 10% more if you go 120)...
So any "time savings" would be eaten up by extra fuel costs, meaning...net result still costs the same if not more?
In Canada, legal maximum is 13 driving hours and 14 "on-duty" hours in a day. Drivers also require 10 hours of off-duty time in a day. Officially you are right, unofficially, I know that many truckers juggle/fudge several log books to "extend" that time. My friend was telling me that they made him log his trip from his home in Bobcaygeon to his yard at Dixie/Dundas as "on duty time".
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No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... |
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 TLS2000Crazy CanuckPremium
join:2004-02-24
Mississauga, ON
 ·TekSavvy Cable
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:Toronto needs tolls at the edge of their borders to make the 905'ers pay for using our roads to get to work, but contributing nothing to the capital/maintenance costs of such roadways.
Once again those "Damn Harris Tories" screwed over Toronto, dumping the QEW east of the 427 to the Humber river on us, but providing next to nothing to maintain it and it was in bad shape when we got it.
Don't start with that crap. The city and it's suburbs all live in a symbiotic relationship. Targeting out of towners with ridiculous tolls would back fire on the city if they ever implemented it. The 905 regions would make it a 2 way toll and every business in Toronto would end up seeing major cost increases as a result.
People from the 905 would stop going in to Toronto unless they had to for work. That means tourism would drop and in the end Toronto would end up with LESS money coming in.
How many of the cities big projects have been paid for or subsidized by Ontario taxpayers? Subways, streetcars, etc...
If Toronto targets people from outside of the city, you can be damned sure that people from outside of the city will demand that Torontonians get targeted in similar ways.
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Tom |
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 pnjunctionTeksavvy ExtremePremium
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON
kudos:1 | said by TLS2000:If Toronto targets people from outside of the city, you can be damned sure that people from outside of the city will demand that Torontonians get targeted in similar ways. I get what you're saying, we should be careful about stirring up conflict, but I can't see how the 905 could retaliate against 416'ers like me who never go there. I take the 401 to the 400 and leave this whole mess behind pretty much whenever I leave downtown. |
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| reply to TLS2000
said by TLS2000:How many of the cities big projects have been paid for or subsidized by Ontario taxpayers? Subways, streetcars, etc...
No shit. And furthermore, their employers are paying taxes as well. |
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GonePremium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:3 Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
| reply to pnjunction
said by pnjunction:I get what you're saying, we should be careful about stirring up conflict, but I can't see how the 905 could retaliate against 416'ers like me who never go there. I take the 401 to the 400 and leave this whole mess behind pretty much whenever I leave downtown. The 905 as a block has more political clout with the province than Toronto itself does. If they wanted something - say a property tax levy against Toronto-based businesses that operate warehouse and logistic facilities in 905 municipalities - the province would be far more likely to listen to them than it would Toronto if it wanted something similar. The only reason Toronto is even in a position to talk tolls is because they have their own municipal expressways (as do Windsor, London, Hamilton, Ottawa and - some day - Sudbury and Peel Region). The province won't toll any of the provincially-owned 400-series highways in Toronto no matter how much council may whine about it.
Trust me, this is a path Toronto does not want to go down. It will come back to bite them in the ass big time. |
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nitzguyPremium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
| reply to pnjunction
said by pnjunction:said by TLS2000:If Toronto targets people from outside of the city, you can be damned sure that people from outside of the city will demand that Torontonians get targeted in similar ways. I get what you're saying, we should be careful about stirring up conflict, but I can't see how the 905 could retaliate against 416'ers like me who never go there. I take the 401 to the 400 and leave this whole mess behind pretty much whenever I leave downtown. Its not "Just" 905ers either....What about Everyone else that comes into the city....that's like us saying in Sudbury that we should be able to charge the mining companies extra to use our roads because they chew them up faster (some of our arterial roads really take a pounding and are fixed up and then in just a couple years short time its like we did nothing at all)...how do you "toll" a 18 wheeler vs. a car....I don't think its fair/logical to do so even though they wreck the road more....hence why we are trying to build options but that's costly as well.
Bobcaygeon to Dixie/Dundas in 1 hour?...Wow that's talent! ....
Get back to the speed thing, when diesel prices were lower...I could definitely see the argument, but with the costs at north of $1.20/L give or take a few cents....its got to be expensive and losing 20% fuel economy takes a punch out of the pocketbook.
Example, drove down to Windsor, spend $70, got from Sudbury to Tilbury before I got scared and stopped at the Pilot and paid 119.9, was averaging about 115-120 the way down (100-105 on the 69 portion with speed limit 90kph), got there in under 7 hours with that 1 stop...
Then for fun, I drove much slowe(r) on the way back just to see how much better economy I could get....at slightly higher gas prices (125.9/127.9), from Tilbury back to Sudbury, spent $75 bucks...I drove about 100-105 on the 400 series, and then about 90-95 on hwy 69 back to Sudbury.
So if it in essence cost me 58.3L to get to Tilbury, and then about 58.6L to get from Tilbury to Windsor and back to Sudbury...that shows a lot of savings...660km down, and about 770km on the way back...that's 100km extra I went on the same amount of fuel...that's signifigant. |
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elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| said by nitzguy:.how do you "toll" a 18 wheeler vs. a car....I don't think its fair/logical to do so even though they wreck the road more....hence why we are trying to build options but that's costly as well.
But we do, they pay fuel tax on top of the taxes that are in the diesel fuel.
Bobcaygeon to Dixie/Dundas in 1 hour?...Wow that's talent! ....
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No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... |
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Robrr
join:2008-04-19
Mississauga, ON | said by nitzguy:.how do you "toll" a 18 wheeler vs. a car....I don't think its fair/logical to do so even though they wreck the road more....hence why we are trying to build options but that's costly as well.
Same way they are currently tolled which is by axle. Typically more axles means more weight which equals a higher toll. |
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| reply to TLS2000
said by TLS2000:said by elwoodblues:Toronto needs tolls at the edge of their borders to make the 905'ers pay for using our roads to get to work, but contributing nothing to the capital/maintenance costs of such roadways.
Once again those "Damn Harris Tories" screwed over Toronto, dumping the QEW east of the 427 to the Humber river on us, but providing next to nothing to maintain it and it was in bad shape when we got it.
Don't start with that crap. The city and it's suburbs all live in a symbiotic relationship. Targeting out of towners with ridiculous tolls would back fire on the city if they ever implemented it. The 905 regions would make it a 2 way toll and every business in Toronto would end up seeing major cost increases as a result. People from the 905 would stop going in to Toronto unless they had to for work. That means tourism would drop and in the end Toronto would end up with LESS money coming in. How many of the cities big projects have been paid for or subsidized by Ontario taxpayers? Subways, streetcars, etc... If Toronto targets people from outside of the city, you can be damned sure that people from outside of the city will demand that Torontonians get targeted in similar ways. Fact: Toronto's transit system - subway, buses, streetcars, LRT - received the least operating and capital cost subsidies of ANY public transit system in the world. What we have is largely paid for out of the fare box - more so than anywhere else.
Fact: Take the NYS Thruway to NYC and you pay a toll based on distance and axles. Doesn't seem to stop NYC 905'er equivalents from commuting to work there, or coming to NYC for tourism.
As to 'targeting' Torontonians, good luck. The QEW & 401 are provincial responsibilities.
Time to quit your bellyaching - Mississauga and most other 905 areas have insufficient urban density to support a proper mass transit solution - largely due to stupid planning by local councils and mayors like Hazel McCallion. You want to live in an area without mass transit - fine - own one car for each member of your family, plus a couple of spares, and put up with the gas, insurance and repair bills, and the long commute times. Remember, it was you who made the lifestyle choice. |
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elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| I think he's arguing capital costs vs operating costs.
Well the only "subways" built in Toronto in the last 40yrs or so is Mel's Subway to nowhere , the Sheppard Line (of which the moronic council shot down extending it).
And now we'll have the Subway to nowhere Part Duex , the extended Spadina line to, all places, Vaughan City Centre , with stops at such busy stops like the Jane and 407.
The people of Toronto don't want that crap, they want another crosstown line. LRT's? That was Dalton, nobody asked him for it.
Streetcars? Guess you haven't been paying attention, when Comrade Miller ordered some $700m of Streetcars with no way to pay for them, luckily Toronto elected a more fiscally minded Mayor who should figure that out.
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No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... |
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GonePremium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:3 | reply to MaynardKrebs
Thruway tolls go to the state, not the city the road passes though. Poor comparison. |
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| Tunnel & bridge tolls go to the 'Authority' that maintains them.
How about the 'Toronto Highway Access Authority'? |
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TLS2000Crazy CanuckPremium
join:2004-02-24
Mississauga, ON Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to MaynardKrebs
My bellyaching? I work just inside the border of Toronto and use the roads at a time when very few people use them. If Toronto implemented tolls it wouldn't affect me at all, as I take 400 series highways the entire way to work. Downtown Toronto has high density, but other areas of Toronto suffer from urban sprawl just as much as Mississauga, if not more. There isn't really a high density area of Etobicoke, or Scarborough for instance.
Toronto may have the lowest subsidies for operating their transit system, but don't delude yourself into thinking that there weren't MAJOR subsidies for building the subway system or the streetcar lines. It's very common for both the province and the federal government to pay a huge chunk of the costs for transit expansion.
Also, I don't recall the last time one of the 905 cities went whining to the province for help because they couldn't make their budget work. Here's a hint for your spend free council: Stop spending money on stupid little pet projects and maybe you'll have money to fix the infrastructure.
Now to property taxes: Guess what? Toronto has the lowest property taxes in the GTA. Every time there's a hint of an increase in those taxes people come out saying to charge the 905ers for using Toronto's services. How about you pay property tax proportional to what everyone else pays before you start telling us that we owe you?
Back on topic: I passed a truck on the 403 yesterday that was doing 118ish. Good on them. It is safer for all traffic on the highway to be doing similar speeds.
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Tom |
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GonePremium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
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1 edit | reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:Tunnel & bridge tolls go to the 'Authority' that maintains them.
How about the 'Toronto Highway Access Authority'? That "Authority" is an agency of the State of New York (and, in some cases, jointly with the State of New Jersey), not an agency of the City of New York.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolit···ew_York)
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Autho···w_Jersey
In fact, all of the roads and bridges maintained by the New York City Department of Transportation are toll-free.
Try again. |
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