 GbcueP.E.Premium
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kudos:8 | reply to swintec
Re: Looking for new visa/mc link to no id required section said by swintec:said by BlueMist:and even then courts have specified they can refuse payments made totally in coins if so desired... It is totally up to a merchant to accept or refuse anything else, like credit cards.
Unless you have a debt that you created then you can pay with whatever you want, even pennies. US currency must be accepted for all DEBTS public and private. Buying a candy bar is not a debt since you are paying before you own. Getting your water or electric bill though at the end of the month is a debt and can be paid with whatever denomination you want. Going out to a restaurant depends on how you look at it. You pay after you eat, so you could look at it as a debt created, some say it isnt because you are taking care of everything in one short visit. You are wrong.
Cash may be used for all debts, but the user doesn't have to accept it.
I don't have to accept cash. I can mandate card. |
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 swintecPremium,VIP
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| said by Gbcue:said by swintec:said by BlueMist:and even then courts have specified they can refuse payments made totally in coins if so desired... It is totally up to a merchant to accept or refuse anything else, like credit cards.
Unless you have a debt that you created then you can pay with whatever you want, even pennies. US currency must be accepted for all DEBTS public and private. Buying a candy bar is not a debt since you are paying before you own. Getting your water or electric bill though at the end of the month is a debt and can be paid with whatever denomination you want. Going out to a restaurant depends on how you look at it. You pay after you eat, so you could look at it as a debt created, some say it isnt because you are taking care of everything in one short visit. You are wrong. Cash may be used for all debts, but the user doesn't have to accept it. I don't have to accept cash. I can mandate card. You're right, you don't have to accept US currency for a current outstanding debt, but refusing payment on a debt when attempting to pay with legal tender (bills or coin) makes the debt void.
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GbcueP.E.Premium
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Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:8 | said by swintec:You're right, you don't have to accept US currency for a current outstanding debt, but refusing payment on a debt when attempting to pay with legal tender (bills or coin) makes the debt void.
Again, wrong.
Refusal on a payment on a debt does not make the debt void. Let's say you owe'd me $1000. If you paid me the $1000 in pennies, I don't have to accept those pennies (which are totally unreasonable), but you'd still owe me the debt. This has been proven in case law.
»cashmoneylife.com/paying-debts-w···-tender/ |
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 djdanskaRudie32Premium,MVM
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| Oh yeah, I had someone try that trick when i worked at a gas station. $40.00 in gas and they come in to pay with pennies, in plastic bags. Im like, yeah. no. try again.
And the law in that area says if i give them permission to leave the property for any reason, its no longer considered a drive off, and we can not prosecute them. So, long story short, they walked into the jewel osco and used the coinstar (same property, was a jewel osco gas station), and threw them at me. in front of the cops. Was pulled over outside on the main street when they flew off leaving. lmao. (was a hummer and the cops where just drooling at the idea of giving them a ticket)
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| reply to Gbcue
said by Gbcue:said by swintec:You're right, you don't have to accept US currency for a current outstanding debt, but refusing payment on a debt when attempting to pay with legal tender (bills or coin) makes the debt void.
Again, wrong. Refusal on a payment on a debt does not make the debt void. Let's say you owe'd me $1000. If you paid me the $1000 in pennies, I don't have to accept those pennies (which are totally unreasonable), but you'd still owe me the debt. This has been proven in case law. » cashmoneylife.com/paying-debts-w···-tender/ You might to reread it. If i want to buy a product you can tell me you will only accept x type of payment. If i owe you money, you can't refuse legal tender. |
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djdanskaRudie32Premium,MVM
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kudos:4 | It's getting more and more common for stores to not accept cash. The grocery store i had by my old place accepted no cash. Plastic only. |
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swintecPremium,VIP
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| reply to silentlooker
said by silentlooker:said by Gbcue:said by swintec:You're right, you don't have to accept US currency for a current outstanding debt, but refusing payment on a debt when attempting to pay with legal tender (bills or coin) makes the debt void.
Again, wrong. Refusal on a payment on a debt does not make the debt void. Let's say you owe'd me $1000. If you paid me the $1000 in pennies, I don't have to accept those pennies (which are totally unreasonable), but you'd still owe me the debt. This has been proven in case law. » cashmoneylife.com/paying-debts-w···-tender/ You might to reread it. If i want to buy a product you can tell me you will only accept x type of payment. If i owe you money, you can't refuse legal tender. Exactly. The author makes the point that that specific case probably would have won the appeal if he pursued it but he chose not to due to expense.
A store can refuse bills of denominations because no debt has been entered into before the customers get up to the register to cash out.
A store that runs a charge account or some other service where you pay some time after service can not restrict your payment.
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 J E F FWhatta Ya Think About Dat?Premium
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| said by swintec:Exactly. The author makes the point that that specific case probably would have won the appeal if he pursued it but he chose not to due to expense.
A store can refuse bills of denominations because no debt has been entered into before the customers get up to the register to cash out.
A store that runs a charge account or some other service where you pay some time after service can not restrict your payment.
But the debt holder can make you package it nicely.
I think I would be pissed off if someone paid me off in pennies.
Thank GOD Canada is getting rid of that abomination in October. Good riddance, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
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swintecPremium,VIP
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| said by J E F F:I think I would be pissed off if someone paid me off in pennies.
Thank GOD Canada is getting rid of that abomination in October. Good riddance, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
Oh yea for sure, but pissing someone off is not illegal.
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swintecPremium,VIP
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2 edits | reply to Gbcue
said by Gbcue:You are wrong.
Cash may be used for all debts, but the user doesn't have to accept it.
I don't have to accept cash. I can mandate card.
Now that I am home to respond..The Coinage Act of 1965 specifically says that all US tender is legal for debts paid to a creditor. »www.treasury.gov/resource-center···der.aspx
This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.
Again, keep in mind that going into a store and buying a new TV is not a debt, I would be paying at time of purchase.
You giving me $1,000 and wanting to be paid back later is. You have now become a creditor to me and would be paid in some form of legal tender, coins or otherwise. I guess you could draw up a signed agreement stating check only but that is another matter.
The pumping of gas like the above example or dining at restaurants is a gray area I think. You have already accepted goods and are paying after consumption / pumping. Is that a short term debt? We could go back and forth on that part I think depending on how each persons sees it.
EDIT-- Also, as far as the debt being canceled for refused tender:
»www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/3/3-603.html
§ 3-603. TENDER OF PAYMENT.
(a) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument, the effect of tender is governed by principles of law applicable to tender of payment under a simple contract.
(b) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument and the tender is refused, there is discharge, to the extent of the amount of the tender, of the obligation of an indorser or accommodation party having a right of recourse with respect to the obligation to which the tender relates.
(c) If tender of payment of an amount due on an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument, the obligation of the obligor to pay interest after the due date on the amount tendered is discharged. If presentment is required with respect to an instrument and the obligor is able and ready to pay on the due date at every place of payment stated in the instrument, the obligor is deemed to have made tender of payment on the due date to the person entitled to enforce the instrument.
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J E F FWhatta Ya Think About Dat?Premium
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| reply to swintec
said by swintec:said by J E F F:I think I would be pissed off if someone paid me off in pennies.
Thank GOD Canada is getting rid of that abomination in October. Good riddance, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
Oh yea for sure, but pissing someone off is not illegal. Damn straight, and that sucks. It makes the news here every year with some self-employed dude that has no problem bringing in 2,000,000 pennies to clear of his $20,000 tax bill...but it Canada Revenue Agency, so they take it and put 'er back into circulation..and use to shut down the line for a week. So now, who got the last laugh?
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| reply to J E F F
said by J E F F:I think I would be pissed off if someone paid me off in pennies.
A true story...
Once upon a time someone thought they'd be a smartass and show up at 2 am with hundreds of dollars worth of pennies to get their car out of impound.
The clerk at the impound yard accepted the pennies without question or argument, treating it like any other ordinary transaction. He then proceeded to count the pennies, one by one, while the customer waited and waited and waited. The clerk stopped for breaks and to assist other customers. The smartass customer became more and more impatient; the clerk calmly advised him that he had to count the money and verify payment in full before he could release the car.
After over four hours of counting pennies, the vehicle was free to go. As the customer was leaving, the clerk smiled and said, "Have a nice day. At xxx towing, the customer is always right but the clerk always wins."
Moral of the story: Smartassery is a two way street.
By the way, the clerk was a motorcycle freak who went on to hang out on internet forums  |
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J E F FWhatta Ya Think About Dat?Premium
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kudos:1 | Good for you! Good way to handle it.... |
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 Anonymous_AnonymousPremium
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| reply to J E F F
said by J E F F:said by swintec:said by J E F F:I think I would be pissed off if someone paid me off in pennies.
Thank GOD Canada is getting rid of that abomination in October. Good riddance, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
Oh yea for sure, but pissing someone off is not illegal. Damn straight, and that sucks. It makes the news here every year with some self-employed dude that has no problem bringing in 2,000,000 pennies to clear of his $20,000 tax bill...but it Canada Revenue Agency, so they take it and put 'er back into circulation..and use to shut down the line for a week. So now, who got the last laugh? I bet it cost them a few thousand dollars to count them all. |
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swintecPremium,VIP
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| reply to J E F F
said by J E F F:but it Canada Revenue Agency, so they take it and put 'er back into circulation..and use to shut down the line for a week. So now, who got the last laugh?
The question is, how can knowing the law and knowing that the payment for debt must be taken...can this somehow be exploited in our favor if we can get an agent for the creditor to refuse? I wonder if having them sign something stating payment was attempted but refused is enough? Maybe small camera recording the interaction? hhhmmmm...
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djdanskaRudie32Premium,MVM
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| reply to Anonymous_
said by Anonymous_: I bet it cost them a few thousand dollars to count them all.
they don't have machines to count the change? |
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Anonymous_AnonymousPremium
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| Shipping and handling cost (about 6.4 tons of pennies).
Maintenance cost.
Power cost for the machines.
propane/power for the forklifts cost.
packaging costs
distributing costs
security costs
Not very cheap in the end
looking at paying 5-6k for man hours |
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