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ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
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reply to nunya

Re: A picture is worth 3 words...

Just wondering, what are the specific code violations? Having to do with the # of circuits in the raceway?

Is this three-phase?

I know it's customary to use the ungrounded colors in some sort of systematic pattern, but I wasn't aware that the NEC required it in any residential installations.

In my load center, I think I've got every color THHN/THWN manufactured by Essex, including gray.

As Alkizmo alluded to, I suspect that the brother-in-law was used to doing data wiring. Maybe you could sell them some busway.
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Jack_in_VA
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said by ArgMeMatey:

Just wondering, what are the specific code violations? Having to do with the # of circuits in the raceway?

Is this three-phase?

I know it's customary to use the ungrounded colors in some sort of systematic pattern, but I wasn't aware that the NEC required it in any residential installations.

In my load center, I think I've got every color THHN/THWN manufactured by Essex, including gray.

As Alkizmo alluded to, I suspect that the brother-in-law was used to doing data wiring. Maybe you could sell them some busway.

You see a lot of different color wires on MCC's, PLC's, Control Panels etc. Electrical wiring is not limited to Black, Red, green, White, grey and Brown.


ArgMeMatey

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said by Jack_in_VA:

You see a lot of different color wires on MCC's, PLC's, Control Panels etc. Electrical wiring is not limited to Black, Red, green, White, grey and Brown.

Fair enough. I asked at Graybar and bought 500 ft. of every different solid insulation color of 12 AWG stranded they had in stock. I probably already had black, red, blue, white and green, so from them I got brown, orange, violet, yellow, and gray. This was back when it cost $25 a roll.
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Jack_in_VA
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North, VA
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said by ArgMeMatey:

said by Jack_in_VA:

You see a lot of different color wires on MCC's, PLC's, Control Panels etc. Electrical wiring is not limited to Black, Red, green, White, grey and Brown.

Fair enough. I asked at Graybar and bought 500 ft. of every different solid insulation color of 12 AWG stranded they had in stock. I probably already had black, red, blue, white and green, so from them I got brown, orange, violet, yellow, and gray. This was back when it cost $25 a roll.

That was a very thoughtful and wise decision.


nunya
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O Fallon, MO
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reply to ArgMeMatey

To answer your question and a few others:
The biggest issue is de-rating. These are all power circuits.
The circuits would all have to be derated 45%.
Judging from the neutral count, it appears something went horribly awry as well.
All mwbc's must be grouped and properly identified.

Ordinarily there would be several smaller conduits leaving the panel; rather than 1 giant conduit.
The other conduits you see are from the vanilla box (lights, sidewall outlets, HW, emergency lighting, 1 HVAC RTU.
While there is no "set" color code, when established it should be followed. The feeder coming in is tagged out properly ABC Black Red Blue. (This is a common 120/208 3 phase service)

Finally, poor workmanship in and of itself is a code violation. When all else fails 110.12.
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sk1939
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join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
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reply to ArgMeMatey

said by ArgMeMatey:

This was back when it cost $25 a roll.

$55/roll + 8.5% tax today.


ArgMeMatey

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Milwaukee, WI
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reply to nunya

said by nunya:

To answer your question and a few others:
The biggest issue is de-rating. These are all power circuits.
The circuits would all have to be derated 45%.
Judging from the neutral count, it appears something went horribly awry as well.
All mwbc's must be grouped and properly identified.

Ordinarily there would be several smaller conduits leaving the panel; rather than 1 giant conduit.
The other conduits you see are from the vanilla box (lights, sidewall outlets, HW, emergency lighting, 1 HVAC RTU.
While there is no "set" color code, when established it should be followed. The feeder coming in is tagged out properly ABC Black Red Blue. (This is a common 120/208 3 phase service)

Finally, poor workmanship in and of itself is a code violation. When all else fails 110.12.

Thanks. WI did not require derating until some time after 2002, I think. I've got a couple of conduits with multiple MWBCs but they are grouped ... which is also why I have both white and gray for the grounded.

At one place where I lived in the 90s, they ran all the NM-B through a single 1-1/2 or 2" conduit stubbed out of the top of the load center.
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nunya
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1 recommendation

De-rating isn't anything new. It doesn't matter what state you are in, the laws of physics still apply. I think it's safe to say that it's been a code requirement for a long time. I would guess over 100 years.

FWIW, going back to 1962 (the earliest I could find) it looks like WI just takes the NEC and adds their own little pre-cursor to the front with some minor amendments.
Basically, it's called the the WI electrical code, but it's really just the same NEC that almost everywhere USA uses.
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ArgMeMatey

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said by nunya:

De-rating isn't anything new. It doesn't matter what state you are in, the laws of physics still apply. I think it's safe to say that it's been a code requirement for a long time. I would guess over 100 years.

FWIW, going back to 1962 (the earliest I could find) it looks like WI just takes the NEC and adds their own little pre-cursor to the front with some minor amendments.
Basically, it's called the the WI electrical code, but it's really just the same NEC that almost everywhere USA uses.

I should know by now that if I don't properly qualify and source my statements in this forum they will be refuted and rejected.

You are right of course that derating has been around since the beginning of time. I was referring to a specific provision Wisconsin had (Comm 16.30) in 1999 which is what was relevant to my situation.

quote:
ARTICLE 310
CONDUCTORS FOR GENERAL WIRING
Comm 16.30 Ampacities for conductors rated
0-2000 volts [NEC 310-15].
(1) ADJUSTMENT FACTORS [NEC 310-15(b)(2)]. This is a department exception in addition to the exceptions specified in NEC 310-15(b)(2)(a):
Exception No. 5: The derating factors shown above do not apply
to branch circuits supplying an individual dwelling unit.

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leibold
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reply to nunya

said by nunya:

While there is no "set" color code, when established it should be followed.

With the notable exception that it is expressly prohibited to use either a solid green or green with yellow stripe conductor for any purpose other then grounding ( 250.119).

In my opinion that makes John Galt See Profile's discovery of all green wiring even worse then the patriotic wiring you found (however not by much). At least our patriot had the option of using phase tape to mark each wire appropriately (it is not permitted to mark a green wire to use if for other purposes).
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