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sphexi

join:2002-08-22
Victoria, BC

Optik Internet Issue | Retrains multiple times daily

I've had Optik since June, and so far it's been good for the most part. The house we just moved into was pre-wired for Ethernet, and the previous owners had already made it so that the phone jacks in the house could go into a VoIP device, which was nice. The tech that installed everything was friendly and knowledgeable, and did a great job.

Occassionally I'll get a retrain or two, nothing major, we're talking once a week or two. Yesterday there were many in the morning, to the point where I couldn't even get online and the settop boxes all went dead for a few hours. I reset the modem, and since then (roughly 36 hours) I've had 11 retrains, including one about half an hour ago.

I'm running the Actiontec v1000h:

Connection Status: Showtime
VPI: N/A
VCI: N/A
Broadband Mode Setting: MULTIMODE
Broadband Negotiated Mode: VDSL2 - 8B
Downstream Speed: 31496 Kbps
Upstream Speed: 3072 Kbps
SNR Downstream : 15 dB
SNR Upstream : 15 dB
Attenuation Downstream : 0 dB
Attenuation Upstream : 0 dB
Power Downstream 3 dBm
Power Upstream -13.1 dBm
Near End CRC Errors Interleave: 60592
Near End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
Far End CRC Errors Interleave : 25
Far End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End CRC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Near End CRC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End CRC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Far End CRC Fastpath : N/A
Near End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Near End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
Far End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Far End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End FEC Interleave : 7
30 Minute Near End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End FEC Interleave : 4
30 Minute Far End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Discarded Packets Downstream : 0
30 Minute Discarded Packets Upstream : 0
PTM VLAN QoS: 0
Retrains Number: 11
Retrain Timer: 0 Days, 0H:33M:9S

Figured I'd be a good customer and call into support, and let them go through their process. It involved 5 minutes on hold while she ran line tests, and then her telling me to "monitor" my modem for two hours, and to watch the lights on it. If it drops again she wants me to note which lights go out, and she promised to call me in two hours to check on it. Didn't ask for a callback number (we'll see how that works out), and seemed confused when I mentioned "retrains" and "DSL status page".

So before I start poking at wiring in the house, or ask them to send a tech out to look at stuff outside (it's a townhouse complex so I'm not even sure where to look), can someone with more experience spotcheck the numbers above and tell me if those are within expected ranges or not? I know just enough to get myself in trouble, couldn't find any good info on what it all means though.

ruiner

join:2012-03-10
Canada
Your Near End CRC Errors Interleave number is pretty horrendous for 30 mins of uptime. You should harass them to send a tech out to look at your line.

sphexi

join:2002-08-22
Victoria, BC
I'm not 100%, but I think those keep going up between retrains. It's always a higher number after that happens, it seems to reset only when I reset the router.

BTW that rep did call back, and it hadn't retrained by then so nothing to really do, she's going to call back today again after 24h to see.

parrelium

join:2005-07-31
Abbotsford, BC
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TELUS
reply to sphexi
Connection Status: Showtime
VPI: N/A
VCI: N/A
Broadband Mode Setting: MULTIMODE
Broadband Negotiated Mode: VDSL2 - 8B
Downstream Speed: 31496 Kbps
Upstream Speed: 3071 Kbps
SNR Downstream : 21 dB
SNR Upstream : 12 dB
Attenuation Downstream : 0 dB
Attenuation Upstream : 0 dB
Power Downstream 98 dBm
Power Upstream -40.2 dBm
Near End CRC Errors Interleave: 2769
Near End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
Far End CRC Errors Interleave : 1229
Far End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End CRC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Near End CRC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End CRC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Far End CRC Fastpath : N/A
Near End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Near End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
Far End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Far End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End FEC Interleave : 193
30 Minute Near End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End FEC Interleave : 7149
30 Minute Far End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Discarded Packets Downstream : 0
30 Minute Discarded Packets Upstream : 0
PTM VLAN QoS: 0
Retrains Number: 2
Retrain Timer: 4 Days, 10H:17M:49S

Well that's my page, dunno if this helps you, but my service has been rock solid for almost 2 years now.

parrelium

join:2005-07-31
Abbotsford, BC
kudos:1
Power Downstream 98 dBm
Power Upstream -40.2 dBm

parrelium

join:2005-07-31
Abbotsford, BC
kudos:1
Well those numbers are quite different. Lol. My actiontec is actually powering all the TELUS buildings in the province obviously.

sphexi

join:2002-08-22
Victoria, BC

1 edit
Like I said I'm not sure what the different power and SNR numbers SHOULD be, yours are obviously quite different than mine and even though you seem to have had 2 retrains since you reset the modem (at least 4 days ago though), I would say that's more than acceptable.

Here's my updated stats from just now, so less than 24 hours since yesterday's:

Connection Status: Showtime
VPI: N/A
VCI: N/A
Broadband Mode Setting: MULTIMODE
Broadband Negotiated Mode: VDSL2 - 8B
Downstream Speed: 31496 Kbps
Upstream Speed: 3072 Kbps
SNR Downstream : 15 dB
SNR Upstream : 14 dB
Attenuation Downstream : 0 dB
Attenuation Upstream : 0 dB
Power Downstream 3.3 dBm
Power Upstream -13.3 dBm
Near End CRC Errors Interleave: 128170
Near End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
Far End CRC Errors Interleave : 183
Far End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End CRC Interleave : 34464
30 Minute Near End CRC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End CRC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Far End CRC Fastpath : N/A
Near End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Near End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
Far End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Far End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End FEC Interleave : 61187
30 Minute Near End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End FEC Interleave : 12
30 Minute Far End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Discarded Packets Downstream : 0
30 Minute Discarded Packets Upstream : 0
PTM VLAN QoS: 0
Retrains Number: 25
Retrain Timer: 0 Days, 4H:11M:39S

I've now doubled the number of retrains and almost doubled the Near End CRC errors, plus a bunch of others I've not seen before. Similar SNR/power numbers though. My guess is it's going to be a power or interference issue, at some point I'll look at my wiring and see if I can't do something with it myself to better the situation.

Edit:
Here's my max up/down rates just in case...

adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 2
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 12627 Kbps, Downstream rate = 74896 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 3072 Kbps, Downstream rate = 31496 Kbps

ruiner

join:2012-03-10
Canada
Your power and SNR should be fine. Its the accumulated line errors that are the problem. The CRC errors are when too many bits are mangled and they cause a retransmission of the packet. Too long of a burst of noise and your modem is going to lose sync and retrain.

Downstream Speed: 33304 Kbps
Upstream Speed: 3072 Kbps
SNR Downstream : 16 dB
SNR Upstream : 24 dB
Attenuation Downstream : 0 dB
Attenuation Upstream : 0 dB
Power Downstream 1.8 dBm
Power Upstream -12.3 dBm
Near End CRC Errors Interleave: 0
Near End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
Far End CRC Errors Interleave : 0
Far End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End CRC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Near End CRC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End CRC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Far End CRC Fastpath : N/A
Near End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Near End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
Far End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Far End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End FEC Interleave : 702
30 Minute Near End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End FEC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Far End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Discarded Packets Downstream : 0
30 Minute Discarded Packets Upstream : 0
PTM VLAN QoS: 0
Retrains Number: 0
Retrain Timer: 0 Days, 9H:48M:47S
 

sphexi

join:2002-08-22
Victoria, BC
What could cause such noise? It was fine up until a week or two ago, occasional retrains but nothing like this. It's about 15-20 times a day, sometimes 3-5 in an hour. A tech is coming tomorrow to take a look, something has to have changed outside the building that's causing it.

ruiner

join:2012-03-10
Canada
It could just be your Actiontec going bad. Or it could be something with the line. That's what the tech is there for, so you don't have to figure it out.

sphexi

join:2002-08-22
Victoria, BC
Tech came yesterday, looked at a few things. He ran some tests and couldn't even get a connection, he ended up replacing a POTS that he said looked like was reused, and that someone had snipped the previous wires out but left little bits in it. When he tugged on the line in it just came out without any resistance, after that the connection looked to be stable.

Because it was Sunday we couldn't get into the telco room on site, but he ran some tests on the STBs and said he didn't see any errors. That was about 30 hours ago now, since then there's been 19 retrains already, so there's still an issue somewhere.

I love that he provided us his card and info, and that I can call him personally to schedule time for him to come back (for which I will make sure we have access to the telco room this time), and it's not so bad that I can't wait until next weekend.

sphexi

join:2002-08-22
Victoria, BC
It's been stable for about 5 hours so far now, although since the tech was here it's retrained 36 times. Weird thing is the SNR/power levels are totally different:

SNR Downstream : 7 dB
SNR Upstream : 9 dB
Power Downstream 18.6 dBm
Power Upstream -4.3 dBm

Probably just randomness, but odd that it's working better all of a sudden tonight, and these have changed slightly.

sphexi

join:2002-08-22
Victoria, BC

1 edit
Another update on this:

Since last update it's been hit or miss. It's retrained daily, but sometimes gone up to 20 hours between a drop, and then sometimes drops constantly or can't even connect for 15-30 minutes. For example right now, it's dropped several times in the past hour, and I had to reboot the modem to force it to even connect (it connected to DSL but not the Internet).

I've removed literally all devices from my home network (several 10/100/1000mbps switches and other computers), leaving just two STBs and my one computer, wired directly to the router.

I had called the tech back directly about 2-3 days after he left to let him know it wasn't working, left a VM, no response. So that 7 day "warranty" obviously isn't very useful.

I called tech support again today, started the whole process over, got transferred to somebody who actually spoke English and didn't read from a script (I was surprised these people actually exist within Telus somewhere), he also understood words such as "retrain" which the standard reps obviously have no clue about. I've lost track of how many times I've said I have the Actiontec, only to get "You mean the black one with two antennas?".

He contacted the network team, and after 10 minutes said "The repair tech didn't update your network stream, so we've done that now, and it should be fine." I asked what updating the "network stream" consisted of, and got no answer other than it should be fine and not to worry. Obviously this is not the case, and within 15 minutes it was going down again.

Connection Status: Showtime
VPI: N/A
VCI: N/A
Broadband Mode Setting: MULTIMODE
Broadband Negotiated Mode: VDSL2 - 8B
Downstream Speed: 31496 Kbps
Upstream Speed: 3072 Kbps
SNR Downstream : 14 dB
SNR Upstream : 10 dB
Attenuation Downstream : 0 dB
Attenuation Upstream : 0 dB
Power Downstream 3.8 dBm
Power Upstream -13.7 dBm
Near End CRC Errors Interleave: 5369
Near End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
Far End CRC Errors Interleave : 4
Far End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End CRC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Near End CRC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End CRC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Far End CRC Fastpath : N/A
Near End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Near End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
Far End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Far End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End FEC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Near End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End FEC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Far End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Discarded Packets Downstream : 0
30 Minute Discarded Packets Upstream : 0
PTM VLAN QoS: 0
Retrains Number: 1
Retrain Timer: 0 Days, 0H:0M:25S

So I'll be calling again tomorrow to schedule another tech visit, and the poor soul that comes out will be replacing the modem, and the wiring to the house from the telco closet on site (which is what the last tech had said should be done, but then decided it wasn't probably needed).

Edit:

Wow, barely 15 minutes since the last retrain, the errors went through the roof and it dropped again:

Connection Status: Showtime
VPI: N/A
VCI: N/A
Broadband Mode Setting: MULTIMODE
Broadband Negotiated Mode: VDSL2 - 8B
Downstream Speed: 28739 Kbps
Upstream Speed: 3072 Kbps
SNR Downstream : -4 dB
SNR Upstream : 10 dB
Attenuation Downstream : 0 dB
Attenuation Upstream : 0 dB
Power Downstream 2.6 dBm
Power Upstream -14 dBm
Near End CRC Errors Interleave: 11764
Near End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
Far End CRC Errors Interleave : 4
Far End CRC Errors Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End CRC Interleave : 127874
30 Minute Near End CRC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End CRC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Far End CRC Fastpath : N/A
Near End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Near End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
Far End RS FEC Interleave : 0
Far End RS FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Near End FEC Interleave : 18128
30 Minute Near End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Far End FEC Interleave : 0
30 Minute Far End FEC Fastpath : N/A
30 Minute Discarded Packets Downstream : 0
30 Minute Discarded Packets Upstream : 0
PTM VLAN QoS: 0
Retrains Number: 2
Retrain Timer: 0 Days, 0H:17M:1S

I notice just before it happens the 30 minute near end errors jump and then the modem resets itself. The downstream speed also dropped a little which is odd.


xsbell

join:2008-12-22
Canada
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Primus Telecommu..

1 edit
reply to sphexi
At first I thought it was your upload SnR that was causing it since you're only syncing at 3072Kbps, but then the last line stats you posted showed something totally different. (download SnR at -4db)

Either way, you definitely have something wrong with your loop, and you'd have to make sure it wasn't your inside wiring that's causing the trouble or else you can be charged.

Try hooking the modem straight at the demarc or NID to see if you get any improvements, if so, then it's more than likely your internal wiring. If everything stays the same, then it's the loop from the NID to the remote, in which case it's Telus' problem. (get them to try another pair)

BTW, do you have a treadmill or any other devices that could interfere?

sphexi

join:2002-08-22
Victoria, BC
I don't have a treadmill, and all electronics are on surge protectors. The modem and my Vonage box and switches are all sitting on a small UPS actually, so there shouldn't be any issues with interference in the house.

So the tech came today around 4pm or so, prior to that the modem had retrained 35 times since midnight (so 16 hours), which is the last time I reset it. As he was standing there talking with me the light on it went off as it reset itself.

He checked at the demarc and couldn't detect any shorts at that time, but when he went in the telco room on the end of our building, he saw signs of damage to wiring. Turns out there had been rats in there at some point (I'm betting they were found right when I started having issues, but I didn't ask), and even though they got rid of the rats nobody checked the wiring. The last tech had looked in there as well but said he didn't see anything, I confirmed with our maintenance guy that the rats were found weeks ago at least so he missed the damage.

The tech ended up replacing a big chunk of wiring in that room (coming in from outside I think), he said it looked like it could have been hitting some of the side of the building which is metal, he also switched the pairs that were used coming into my townhouse just in case.

It's been three hours without an issue now, when the last 24 hours have been nonstop. I am seeing some 30 minute near end FEC numbers, but only like 128 total, no other errors at all.


xsbell

join:2008-12-22
Canada
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Primus Telecommu..
reply to sphexi
There have been some people that have also had very short loops report the same problems you are having. They added an extra 50-100 feet of CAT5e in between the modem and it fixed their problems.

edit: I was just posting when you replied. Damn rats! Glad they found the problem!

sphexi

join:2002-08-22
Victoria, BC
Only time will tell if that was truly the issue or not, but I'm betting it was. Everything was fine when I moved in, then like a month and a half later went bad, now I get to enjoy seeing this:

System Up Time: 1d, 0h, 56m
DSL Link Up Time: 1d, 0h, 55m

Right after the guy left I rebooted the modem....just in case. It hasn't gone down once in 25 hours now, which is some sort of record compared to the last few weeks.

said by xsbell:

There have been some people that have also had very short loops report the same problems you are having. They added an extra 50-100 feet of CAT5e in between the modem and it fixed their problems.

The modem IS the router though, so how would this work? I have three of the ports on the back wired directly to the three TV locations (430,330, and Xbox360), just so they get direct lines to the router. The fourth is into an 8-port gigabit switch, which daisychains to another 8-port gigabit switch, which are both wired into a panel that routes them throughout the house (each room has two ethernet jacks, in some cases more). This is all in my little closet where the line comes in, so I have short 1-3 foot cables (from switches to panel are all 1ft each, from modem to switches is like 2ft, etc.) and the phone line from the splitter that Telus put in is maybe 3 feet only. I figured less is better so I made sure to hit up Monoprice before the installation guy came

ruiner

join:2012-03-10
Canada
said by sphexi:

said by xsbell:

There have been some people that have also had very short loops report the same problems you are having. They added an extra 50-100 feet of CAT5e in between the modem and it fixed their problems.

The modem IS the router though, so how would this work?

Yeah this doesn't make any sense, unless he means the phone cord not the ethernet. I've got a 1' cable into another switch and a few other 3' cables with no problems.

But still I would think chewed up wire that was shorting out is far more likely the cause.

sphexi

join:2002-08-22
Victoria, BC
The phone line itself is quite long, I'm at the end of the row of townhouses, so it's at least 100', plus internally there's a 25' or so cord looped there from the installer.

Whatever the case is, replacing the wiring in the electrical/telco room seems to have worked:

System Up Time: 2d, 1h, 17m
DSL Link Up Time: 2d, 1h, 16m

I'll probably spot check it from time to time, but I believe it to be finished. Hopefully everything I've posted in here will be Google'd for years to come by others who encounter hungry rats feasting on their phone lines, and save themselves some time