Need advice on a small water-powered electrical system?

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george357 ius ad arma spondent libertas Premium join:2009-09-18 Candler, NC kudos:1 Reviews: ·Frontier Communi.. ·HughesNet Satell..	Need advice on a small water-powered electrical system? A friend currently lives in a small cabin with no electricity and no ability to get it for now. We have been talking about implementing a water-wheel type generator to run some basic electrical components. Currently, we are looking at powering a small string of LED lights, an average size TV, and hopefully a refrigerator. The idea is to build a bank of 12-volt deep-cycle batteries to run an inverter for the components. The water-wheel would maintain charge on the batteries. I believe that the first step would be to determine the max power (amps/watts) the equipment would draw then base the number of batteries from that. After this I guess the generator size could be determined. Once the correct generator is found we would have to figure the flow rate of the water and the gear reductions between the wheel and generator for proper output. Does this sound like the correct procedure to accomplish this project? Any ideas or comments to make this more effective? Any help would be appreciated. -- malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium Cancer Cures Are Just A Crunch Away
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 14:07:44 ·

ropeguru Premium join:2001-01-25 Mechanicsville, VA	Why not solar and/or wind turbine? The TV would be the biggest draw as you could get a propane powered fridge like they have in motor homes. Not sure of the size you might need though.
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 14:14:18 ·
george357 ius ad arma spondent libertas Premium join:2009-09-18 Candler, NC kudos:1 Reviews: ·Frontier Communi.. ·HughesNet Satell..	said by ropeguru: Why not solar and/or wind turbine? The TV would be the biggest draw as you could get a propane powered fridge like they have in motor homes. Not sure of the size you might need though. To the best of my knowledge the water system would be cheaper than the solar and I am not sure there is enough wind in the area on average to justify a windmill. He is hoping to use the fridge he already has and not have to add the expense of propane. He is wanting to do this as cheaply as possible because of his current financial situation. -- malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium Cancer Cures Are Just A Crunch Away
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 14:21:35 ·
SparkChaser Premium join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA kudos:3 Reviews: ·Verizon FiOS	reply to george357 A lot will depend if you have enough flow and head (fall). Take a look at these sites »otherpower.com/otherpower_hydro.html »www.waterwheelfactory.com/
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 15:06:10 ·
george357 ius ad arma spondent libertas Premium join:2009-09-18 Candler, NC kudos:1	Thanks for the links! We are trying to determine head and flow as well as the other aspects. Just not sure which would be the best factor to figure out first.
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 15:14:48 ·
cowboyro join:2000-10-11 Shelton, CT Reviews: ·AT&T U-Verse	reply to george357 Do some math regarding the flow * drop * efficiency of the water turbine. A TV will use some 200W assuming it's CRT. Fridge you're looking at 100W almost continuous. You might be able to start a very small one with an inverter, provided that the inverter is capable of 1000W. So you're looking at a minimum of 100W continuous, maybe 400W for 4hrs/day (throwing numbers). 3.6kWh/day. With a 80% efficiency (let's be realistic) you need 4.5kWh from batteries, maybe 6kWh/day supplied by the turbine. That's 250W continuous. Typical generator efficiency is 60% -> turbine must provide some 400W Sine you're not going to have a super-efficient turbine (90%+) I would guesstimate 70%. P=0.71000[kg/m^3]9.8hq where h is the drop [m] and q is the flow [m^3/s] 400 = 6860hq -> h*q = 0.058 You need 58L/sec falling from 1m to get the power.
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 15:27:36 ·
george357 ius ad arma spondent libertas Premium join:2009-09-18 Candler, NC kudos:1 Reviews: ·Frontier Communi.. ·HughesNet Satell..	said by cowboyro: Do some math regarding the flow * drop * efficiency of the water turbine. A TV will use some 200W assuming it's CRT. Fridge you're looking at 100W almost continuous. You might be able to start a very small one with an inverter, provided that the inverter is capable of 1000W. So you're looking at a minimum of 100W continuous, maybe 400W for 4hrs/day (throwing numbers). 3.6kWh/day. With a 80% efficiency (let's be realistic) you need 4.5kWh from batteries, maybe 6kWh/day supplied by the turbine. That's 250W continuous. Typical generator efficiency is 60% -> turbine must provide some 400W Sine you're not going to have a super-efficient turbine (90%+) I would guesstimate 70%. P=0.71000[kg/m^3]9.8hq where h is the drop [m] and q is the flow [m^3/s] 400 = 6860hq -> h*q = 0.058 You need 58L/sec falling from 1m to get the power. Thanks for the info! The TV is either LCD or Plasma will clarify asap, with 100w continuous to the fridge what would u think that the surge would be for start-up of the compressor? EDIT: Additional information. We were considering an older automotive generator (not alternator) as the charging source. Would this be feasible or would a purpose designed generator be a better choice. -- malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium Cancer Cures Are Just A Crunch Away
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 16:03:59 ·
shdesigns Powered By Infinite Improbabilty Drive Premium join:2000-12-01 Stone Mountain, GA	Why an old auto generator? My Willys had one. After it fried itself the second time (stuck regulator relay) I swapped it for an alternator and never had problems again. You can get "1-wire" alternators relatively cheap. I picked up a 200 amp one for just under $100. Included the internal regulator. Just connect to battery and provide +12V to the reg. If you are just charging a 12V batt, that is all you need. -- Scott Henion Embedded Systems Consultant, SHDesigns home - DIY Welder
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 16:16:59 ·
UHF All static, all day, Forever Premium,MVM join:2002-05-24 Reviews: ·Callcentric ·DIRECTV ·surpasshosting	reply to george357 said by george357: The TV is either LCD or Plasma If it's plasma, good luck. Those things are power hogs.
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 16:19:10 ·
george357 ius ad arma spondent libertas Premium join:2009-09-18 Candler, NC kudos:1 Reviews: ·Frontier Communi.. ·HughesNet Satell..	reply to shdesigns said by shdesigns: Why an old auto generator? My Willys had one. After it fried itself the second time (stuck regulator relay) I swapped it for an alternator and never had problems again. You can get "1-wire" alternators relatively cheap. I picked up a 200 amp one for just under $100. Included the internal regulator. Just connect to battery and provide +12V to the reg. If you are just charging a 12V batt, that is all you need. Just figured that an older generator would be better suited to this application thinking it would require less RPM's to produce the necessary charge when compared to a newer alternator. said by UHF: If it's plasma, good luck. Those things are power hogs. Yeah I know, I have a 50" (though his is smaller 32"-40") and that can pose an issue. I am 75% certain that its an LCD but included the plasma aspect just in case. -- malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium Cancer Cures Are Just A Crunch Away
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 16:24:54 ·
cowboyro join:2000-10-11 Shelton, CT Reviews: ·AT&T U-Verse	reply to george357 said by george357: what would u think that the surge would be for start-up of the compressor? In the 1000W+ range. From what I see in a quick search it can be as high as 20-30A (2400-3600VA) for a fraction of a second. I've been unable to start either of my 2 refrigerators on a 900VA UPS, it would shut down instantly. You made me curious, if I have time tonight I'll try to record on the oscilloscope...
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 16:31:09 ·
SparkChaser Premium join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA kudos:3 Reviews: ·Verizon FiOS	reply to shdesigns said by shdesigns: You can get "1-wire" alternators relatively cheap. I picked up a 200 amp one for just under $100. Included the internal regulator. Just connect to battery and provide +12V to the reg. If you are just charging a 12V batt, that is all you need. +1 on the alternator
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 16:48:55 ·
drjim Premium,MVM join:2000-06-13 Long Beach, CA kudos:3 Reviews: ·Verizon FiOS	And IIRC, when Chrysler was the first to start putting alternators on cars, they made quite a big deal about how it would keep the battery charged even idling at night with the lights on. Probably moot in this case, as you can change the drive ratio to get whatecer speed you need with the water flow you have. -- One man's Magic is another man's Engineering.
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 16:54:58 ·
shdesigns Powered By Infinite Improbabilty Drive Premium join:2000-12-01 Stone Mountain, GA	reply to george357 said by george357: Just figured that an older generator would be better suited to this application thinking it would require less RPM's to produce the necessary charge when compared to a newer alternator. More the other way around. My Willys could not charge at idle with the lights on (I had added tail lights.) The alternator had no problem. Generators are unreliable, brushes wear and they would have mechanical regulators with relays. I have yet to see a car that cant do a good charge at idle with an alternator. -- Scott Henion Embedded Systems Consultant, SHDesigns home - DIY Welder
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 17:31:53 ·
DesertRats Premium join:2003-11-23 Santa Clarita, CA	reply to george357 George357, You may want to take a look at a magazine called "Home Power" www.homepower.com They cover Hydro, Solar, and Wind Designing and Building. I have seen them cover many hydro projects in the past. My interests are in solar so I have not followed the hydro projects. As I recall they have a forum where you can ask questions. Don't hold me to the forum part. I see on the web site a tab for "Microhydro Power" That may have some info that could help you.
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-22 22:11:38 ·
lutful ... of ideas Premium join:2005-06-16 Ottawa, ON Reviews: ·TekSavvy DSL	reply to george357 said by george357: ... After this I guess the generator size could be determined. Once the correct generator is found we would have to figure the flow rate of the water and the gear reductions between the wheel and generator for proper output. Does this sound like the correct procedure to accomplish this project? Choosing the correct type of turbine for the actual water energy source is extremely important. Your friend he may have a weak stream of water running down a very high hill or a very fast moving stream but just a few feet drop within his property limits. said by george357: Any ideas or comments to make this more effective? Any help would be appreciated. Please describe the actual stream with a few photos and/or co-ordinates so we can check using Google Earth. Based on your friend's needs, the generator could be 2KW to 5KW range. It is better to oversize the generator (if the energy source and turbine specs allow that) because of the motor in the fridge and because later on he may want a computer and wireless or satellite internet.
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-23 01:28:36 ·
george357 ius ad arma spondent libertas Premium join:2009-09-18 Candler, NC kudos:1 Reviews: ·Frontier Communi.. ·HughesNet Satell..	reply to george357 said by cowboyro: In the 1000W+ range. From what I see in a quick search it can be as high as 20-30A (2400-3600VA) for a fraction of a second. I've been unable to start either of my 2 refrigerators on a 900VA UPS, it would shut down instantly. You made me curious, if I have time tonight I'll try to record on the oscilloscope... Thanks, that could be interesting to see. said by SparkChaser: +1 on the alternator said by drjim: And IIRC, when Chrysler was the first to start putting alternators on cars, they made quite a big deal about how it would keep the battery charged even idling at night with the lights on. Probably moot in this case, as you can change the drive ratio to get whatecer speed you need with the water flow you have. said by shdesigns: More the other way around. My Willys could not charge at idle with the lights on (I had added tail lights.) The alternator had no problem. Generators are unreliable, brushes wear and they would have mechanical regulators with relays. I have yet to see a car that cant do a good charge at idle with an alternator. Ok, looks like we will use an alternator, thanks for the input! said by DesertRats: George357, You may want to take a look at a magazine called "Home Power" www.homepower.com They cover Hydro, Solar, and Wind Designing and Building. I have seen them cover many hydro projects in the past. My interests are in solar so I have not followed the hydro projects. As I recall they have a forum where you can ask questions. Don't hold me to the forum part. I see on the web site a tab for "Microhydro Power" That may have some info that could help you. Thanks for the info, I will look that site over and see what I can come up with. said by lutful: Please describe the actual stream with a few photos and/or co-ordinates so we can check using Google Earth. Google earth is not likely to help as the pics aren't very detailed with no views of the stream (just so you can see what I mean the co-ordinates are: 35 degrees 48' 41.56" N x 82 degrees 51' 7.75" W). The stream is pretty small, about 18"-24" wide at the widest. It runs about 6"-10" deep average and does have a lot of fall, its pretty steep around here. My friend has the acreage to run several feet of pipe/trough to feed the wheel/turbine. I can try and get some pics later. -- malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium Cancer Cures Are Just A Crunch Away
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-23 14:17:22 ·
jrs8084 Premium join:2002-03-02 Statesville, NC kudos:1	I certainly hope you meant feet and not inches for your stream measurements.
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-23 15:25:37 ·
george357 ius ad arma spondent libertas Premium join:2009-09-18 Candler, NC kudos:1 Reviews: ·Frontier Communi.. ·HughesNet Satell..	said by jrs8084: I certainly hope you meant feet and not inches for your stream measurements. No, the inches are an accurate guesstimate. We are hoping that the supply trough/pipe fall rate in combination with gearing of the alternator drive will be enough to supply the force needed.
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-23 15:41:48 ·
SparkChaser Premium join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA kudos:3 Reviews: ·Verizon FiOS	said by george357: said by jrs8084: I certainly hope you meant feet and not inches for your stream measurements. No, the inches are an accurate guesstimate. We are hoping that the supply trough/pipe fall rate in combination with gearing of the alternator drive will be enough to supply the force needed. Let's hope the fall is enough to make up for the flow. Have you done any flow measurements, yet? OT - Nice country down there. Used to have a relative that lived in Hickory and I traveled a bit there. -- -- -- "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley "I’m not familiar precisely with exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was.." - Mitt Romney
	to forum · permalink · 2012-08-23 16:15:25 ·

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