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Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to urbanriot

Re: Organic Food.. not as safe?

said by urbanriot:

said by Chemist :

That depends on the vegetable and/or fruit being sold.

You're absolutely right, as some produce absorbs and retains toxic chemicals more than others, like green beans, apples (there you go yoyo), bell peppers, lettuce, etc., while mangoes, cabbage, and a few others, not so much.

Again, care to cite an example of a product on store shelves right now with toxic levels of pesticides or herbicides?
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


yoyomhz

join:2003-02-15
Beverly Hills, CA

Here's the definition of a dumb person:
I ate some toxic pesticides and I feel - GREAT. I want some more.
The guy is dumb because even though our bodes are amazing and we don't die when we eat posions, the pesticides can build up in the liver - and do their thing later in life.

Certain pesticides have the nasty habit of storing themselves in the fatty area of human brains - that's why so many farmers got brain tumours. And even 'safe' amounts can be harmful to unborn babies. That's why we're trying to reduce the amount of organophosphate pesticides we use on everything - because it ADDS UP. We already discussed the harmful effects organophosphates have on children on this forum.
They have long been known to be highly toxic to the nervous system, but their dramatic effects on the development of the brain were not appreciated until about 15 years ago, when studies in laboratory animals began to reveal profound effects on the development and migration of neurons in the infant brain. Early findings from human studies found surprisingly widespread exposure to these chemicals, and strong hints of neurological effects. So these new findings, in children aged 6-9 years, confirm a lot of prior evidence and demonstrate that the effects on the brain don’t simply disappear with time.
»switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/gsolo···har.html



Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3

Far be it from me to dismiss random blogs found on the internet. But there's a logical stretch between "Pesticides can be harmful if you eat too much of them", and "Food found in the supermarket contains dangerous levels of them."

But carry on believing every random piece of information you come across on the web. That IS the definition of a smart person....
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Ian

said by Ian:

Again,

said by Ian:

Again, care to cite an example of a product on store shelves right now with toxic levels of pesticides or herbicides?

Why do you write "again"? You haven't previously asked me for anything that I didn't respond to and furthermore, I didn't refer to what you're asking for examples of.

Perhaps you're mixed up and replying to the wrong person or read something other than what I wrote.


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3

said by urbanriot:

said by Ian:

Again,

said by Ian:

Again, care to cite an example of a product on store shelves right now with toxic levels of pesticides or herbicides?

Why do you write "again"? You haven't previously asked me for anything that I didn't respond to and furthermore, I didn't refer to what you're asking for examples of.

Perhaps you're mixed up and replying to the wrong person or read something other than what I wrote.

You seemed to be in agreement with "chemist" and I asked him or her for an example in a previous post. But, can you list examples of common purchases made in the supermarket that have toxic levels?
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

booj

join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

Do you wash your fruit Ian?



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Ian

said by Ian:

You seemed to be in agreement with "chemist" and I asked him or her for an example in a previous post. But, can you list examples of common purchases made in the supermarket that have toxic levels?

I was in agreement with "chemist"'s factual response, that "there are indeed things worse, and not at all equal" concerning a variance of toxicity in different foods. I added context to that response with examples of foods that retain more than other foods.

You're attempting to push forward on debating a point that I did not make.


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to booj

said by booj:

Do you wash your fruit Ian?

Yes. And I would wash "organic" produce as well.

booj

join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

said by Ian:

said by booj:

Do you wash your fruit Ian?

Yes. And I would wash "organic" produce as well.

Then why do you ask people to cite for you toxicity levels in supermarket fruits when you know yourself they are present?


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3

said by booj:

said by Ian:

said by booj:

Do you wash your fruit Ian?

Yes. And I would wash "organic" produce as well.

Then why do you ask people to cite for you toxicity levels in supermarket fruits when you know yourself they are present?

Nice illogical leap there. Did you notice my mentioning that I'd wash organic produce as well?

Wouldn't you? Ever hear of bacteria?
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

booj

join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

I have to leap over the holes in your logic, they are huge.

So, to be clear, you wash your fruit solely because you fear bacteria, not chemicals?



Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3

said by booj:

I have to leap over the holes in your logic, they are huge.

So, to be clear, you wash your fruit solely because you fear bacteria, not chemicals?

Solely? Do I consider it possible that the manufacturer or farmer didn't properly rinse off the pesticides/fertilizers? Sure. And since I don't maintain a GC/Mass-Spec system in my kitchen, and also since I need to wash them anyway to remove bacteria, if it happens to knock off any extra chemicals, so what?

Quick question though, when was the last time there was a produce recall in Canada due to excessive pesticides? None that I can remember. Listeria? E-Coli? All the damned time.

So why not answer my question? Do you (or would you) wash organic produce?

If someone wants to worry about chemical exposure, they can quit worrying about their lettuce and look to the thousands of cars and trucks driving by if that's their thing.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3

Well, undoubtedly people would die from eating cars and trucks. Not recommended.



Chemist

@videotron.ca
reply to Ian

said by Ian:

said by urbanriot:

said by Chemist :

That depends on the vegetable and/or fruit being sold.

You're absolutely right, as some produce absorbs and retains toxic chemicals more than others, like green beans, apples (there you go yoyo), bell peppers, lettuce, etc., while mangoes, cabbage, and a few others, not so much.

Again, care to cite an example of a product on store shelves right now with toxic levels of pesticides or herbicides?

It may not (or may!) have toxic levels right off the shelves, but... Ian, are all herbicides and pesticides water soluble?

Do none of these herbicides and pesticides metabolize to something more harmful than the pesticide or herbicide itself?

None (either the original species or it's metabolite) are fat soluble and stay in your body to bio-accumulate?

You sure about this? Have you looked into the common North American ones?

How about the food stuffs from Costa Rica?

You made a blanket statement.


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3

said by Chemist :

You made a blanket statement.

No, I'm not the one making blanket statements.

There are people here making entirely unscientific leaps because the idea that organic produce is no better than regular is troubling to them. Some are organic farmers themselves. Some may have needlessly wasted money on organic produce. And by the way, simply "believing" that organic foods may have health benefits could have a beneficial placebo effect. So if that works for you, knock yourself out.

Are pesticides a good idea to eat a lot of? No. But we have entire government departments here and in the US working to try and make sure our food is safe, from the levels of pesticides found to types and quantity of bacteria present. As a Chemist, I know that our ability to detect compounds, even trace amounts, has grown by leaps and bounds. So just because you can find a pesticide in a given piece of fruit doesn't mean that it contains toxic levels of it. Even if accumulated over time. Sorry, but the scientific bar needs to be set a little higher for this kind of discussion. Which is what this Stanford study (and others like it) was trying to do.

If there's a nutrition problem in Canada to be concerned with it's with kids eating nothing but junk. For many families it isn't a question of which type of fresh fruits and vegetables they buy. They don't buy them. They throw a plastic fruit roll-up loaded with sugar and a can of coke into their kids lunch bag and call it food.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


Chemist

@videotron.ca

said by Ian:

Are pesticides a good idea to eat a lot of? No. But we have entire government departments here and in the US working to try and make sure our food is safe, from the levels of pesticides found to types and quantity of bacteria present.

For many families it isn't a question of which type of fresh fruits and vegetables they buy. They don't buy them. They throw a plastic fruit roll-up loaded with sugar and a can of coke into their kids lunch bag and call it food.

Examples are 3 types of corn by Monsanto that had zero testing or evaluation and allowed on the market. All that was required by both health Canada and agriculture Canada was documents from Dow and Monsanto stating they meet guidelines and were safe. End of story. ZERO testing of anything in Canada.

It was France who actually did studies on them and found them containing toxic amounts of something (I forget what now) after 90-days of growth.

So does Canada and the US test everything? No. Not at all. They let the chem companies do it for them and write reports for them.

I believe I posted this in this forum a few years ago, you should be able to find it with a word search of Monsanto or something.

Fact of the matter is, Canada is terrible and not what you are making it out to be in yet another blanket statement. Or maybe you just aren't aware. I wasn't either till a few years ago.

In regards to the second paragraph. heh. Bingo! What's even worse, if I don't toss plastic food in the kids lunch they yell at me that they have no food to eat! Can't f'n win...

But yeah, Canadian food/crop reg's aren't anything to be desired... Maybe we are a leader is doing nothing. That's about it.


Chemist

@videotron.ca
reply to Ian

Also, just wish to touch base on this with you Ian.

If one goes and actually reads this study, the researchers clearly state the data they aggregated from some of the various research was biased. In other words..... yup... not really honest data giving honest results and/or honest conclusions.

This is what this study is based on...

This is far from conclusive.


booj

join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON
reply to Ian

said by Ian:

said by booj:

I have to leap over the holes in your logic, they are huge.

So, to be clear, you wash your fruit solely because you fear bacteria, not chemicals?

Quick question though, when was the last time there was a produce recall in Canada due to excessive pesticides? None that I can remember. Listeria? E-Coli? All the damned time.

So why not answer my question? Do you (or would you) wash organic produce?

If someone wants to worry about chemical exposure, they can quit worrying about their lettuce and look to the thousands of cars and trucks driving by if that's their thing.

Listeria and and E-Coli do not taint fruit. They're found on tender vegetables close to black Earth like bean sprouts, scallions and mushrooms. Fruits, aside from rotten ones, are pretty much harmful bacteria free. To answer your question, I wash organic produce when it looks dirty. When you trust the source though, it's good to go.

The instances of chemical traces on fruit are well documented. You will encounter high levels of them if you eat unwashed fruit regularly. Rates in the latest CFIA sampling are about 0.4% of shelf produce having higher than safe amounts of pesticides/preservatives.

For someone so familiar with the state of the art in chemical detection, could you reassure us that such analysis is done on every source that provides produce? Are you not concerned that the food inspection funding, which provides you with the tenuous sense of security you have about pesticide prevalence, is being cut heavily?

From OP's NP article:

quote:
But the Stanford study should be a reminder that there is no compelling reason to make “going organic” a wider policy objective.
The main argument for "going organic" is about a healthy planet and sustainability. Organic food being healthier than non-organic was only a side effect, but it never really had a strong claim. To win on health and (more importantly) taste, freshness (locally grown) matters more.


hm

@videotron.ca

said by Ian:

Quick question though, when was the last time there was a produce recall in Canada due to excessive pesticides? None that I can remember.

There was also the Ottawa incident a few years back that was in all the news about strawberries having way too much pesticides. people were ending up in area hospitals with blistering on the lips and tongues and other allergic reactions.

This was about 6 years ago (+/-).

It happens...

Did you not hear of this Ottawa incident? Was on all the news at the time. Alerts were constantly being put out all summer so people would extra wash the berries. Since it wasn't too long ago, is should be findable on google... A quick search didn't show anything. Maybe a google-ninja can find it.

But that is extreme cases. But does that make lower concentrations just peachy and ok?

Lower concentrations of fat soluble DDT (and it's metabolites) won't harm you either in the short term. Should we put it on your eggs?