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Telco

join:2008-12-19
reply to IllIlIlllIll

Re: 9;

Actually, it was just another example of the private sector not having the stomach or willpower to push a project like this.

This is precisely why government needs to step in an own a wholesale FTTH network that anyone can use to deliver high-speed internet to Americans.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

1 recommendation

said by Telco:

This is precisely why government needs to step in an own a wholesale FTTH network that anyone can use to deliver high-speed internet to Americans.

That worked quite well for Amtrak.
--
Romney/Ryan 2012 - Put a couple of mature adults in charge.

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

Funny you pick Amtrak, why not the highway system? Oh that's right.. it would be contradictory to the BS you are trying to spread.

Amtrak is a niche form of traveling whereas a nationwide fiber infrastructure is vital to the entire country's digital future.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
said by Skippy25:

Funny you pick Amtrak, why not the highway system? Oh that's right.. it would be contradictory to the BS you are trying to spread.

How is what I said BS? Can you prove to me that Amtrak is efficient, profitable and well-run? Some citations would be helpful.

said by Skippy25:

Amtrak is a niche form of traveling whereas a nationwide fiber infrastructure is vital to the entire country's digital future.

That's your opinion, you can invest in it with your own money.
--
Romney/Ryan 2012 - Put a couple of mature adults in charge.


Rich

@ptd.net
Funny you try to make the assumption that a nationwide fiber network will be similar to amtrak. Fiber itself is profitable (unlike amtrak), it's the obscene build costs that are the reason the private sector won't get involved. The government could subsidize the build out a nationwide fiber network to every home, and eventually not only make the money back, but profit from it too. See: Electricity/Electric companies.

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to Skippy25
said by Skippy25:

Amtrak is a niche form of traveling whereas a nationwide fiber infrastructure is vital to the entire country's digital future.

We already have a nationwide fiber infrastructure. The debate is about extending that infrastructure into the last mile and ensuring that it reaches every single property in the United States. There's a bit of a difference between the two, and I'd be curious to hear your argument as to why our future is dependent on every home in America having access to gigabit+ speed internet connections.


OSP

@cox.net
reply to Telco
really, government?, that would be your solution?
raise the funds and do it yourself.

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to Crookshanks
said by Crookshanks:

said by Skippy25:

Amtrak is a niche form of traveling whereas a nationwide fiber infrastructure is vital to the entire country's digital future.

We already have a nationwide fiber infrastructure. The debate is about extending that infrastructure into the last mile and ensuring that it reaches every single property in the United States. There's a bit of a difference between the two, and I'd be curious to hear your argument as to why our future is dependent on every home in America having access to gigabit+ speed internet connections.

HEY america DONT DO IT , we the rest of the world applaud your leaving citizens out of the future

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to OSP
Only if everyone on this board did that, we'd have that FTTH network by now. But oh wait, the fanboys, think private businesses and tax payers should be giving it away for FREE. because that's their right!

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to funny0
Nice talking point, now tell me our future is dependent on every residential property in the United States having access to gigabit+ internet speeds? Name me another country, particularly one with a significant rural population, that is spending tax dollars to build out a nationwide last mile fiber network.

C'Mon, I want to hear an explanation for why we need to spend billions of dollars to ensure that every house has a faster connection to the internet than most currently have to their home LAN. Do tell, what driver of economic prosperity will emerge when Grandma has a taxpayer funded gigabit+ internet connection?


FifthE1ement
Tech Nut

join:2005-03-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
reply to Telco
said by Telco:

Actually, it was just another example of the private sector not having the stomach or willpower to push a project like this.

This is precisely why government needs to step in an own a wholesale FTTH network that anyone can use to deliver high-speed internet to Americans.

No offense bro but the government just doesn't run businesses well. I agree the government does some great things with social programs but when it comes to running a business (profitability) the government just can't stomach it. They run everything like it has an unending supply of money! I can point out a million examples of government running business that have failed and that hemorrhage money but just a few are: Amtrak, Utility Companies, USPS (Post Office), Solar Energy companies (too many to name), GM/Chrysler losses and my favorite Obamacare (which the price has risen for healthcare even after they said after it passed prices would go down). I don't want government dealing with any non-essentials at all!
--
"The relationship between what we see and what we know is never settled..."

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
ObamaCare actually will reduce costs of healthcare giving you an option. And as far as him passing it- Mitt first passed it on the great state of MA.


FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to Skippy25
said by Skippy25:

a nationwide fiber infrastructure is vital to the entire country's digital future.

A nationwide fiber infrastructure exists and has for many years. It just doesn't extend to individual residences.
--
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-platform_home/
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-plat···onalism/

biochemistry
Premium
join:2003-05-09
92361
reply to Crookshanks
Australia.


elios

join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO
reply to hottboiinnc
its funny they dont what the govt doing and when private business does (Google) they spread FUD about how its going to fail
funny that

TuxRaiderPen

join:2009-09-19
reply to pnh102
said by pnh102:
said by Telco:
This is precisely why government needs to step in an own a wholesale FTTH network that anyone can use to deliver high-speed internet to Americans.
That worked quite well for Amtrak.

Is the broadband policy in this country borq'd beyond belief?

YES!

Are sleasy investors killing a great project?

YES!

Is passenger rail service in this country borq'd beyond repair?

[b]YES![b/] has been for decades since they let the RR's weasel out of servivce both passenger and freight... decades ago.

Sad , truly sad, no, absolute disgrace that this country has no high speed rail service to go between coasts, and feed local passenger service to smaller areas... absolute disgrace that countries like Japan and even the french put this country to shame on high speed rail. Disgrace!

Amtrak is a joke, even Canada, *mariginally* gets it better, just slightly, and not by much... they too let passenger rail service be chisled away piece by piece...

Then the whole idiotic rails to trails... URRRGH!

NO MORE TRAILS! LOTS AND LOTS OF RAILS! RIP THE TRAILS DOWN AND PUT THE RAILS BACK!

Let the smoke bellow and the whistles blow!

Alllllll ABBBBOOOOOARDDD!
--
1311393600 - Back to Black.....Black....Black....


The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Windstream
reply to Crookshanks
I don't think anyone has said anything about REQUIRING gigabit speeds. A bit overkill there, but let's run with it anyway.

If broadband wasn't essential in this country, then why not do without? You mean that might be devastating to our economy? Oh, but isn't broadband just a luxury? Right...
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to pnh102
My point was simple. You mention Amtrak, which is very niche and very unprofitable trying to compare it a fiber network as though a nationwide fiber network is doomed just like that niche market. Which, as I stated, is total BS.

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to Crookshanks
Clearly I was speaking of a complete fiber network and I think your other talking points were taking care of in below comments so I wont address those.

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to hottboiinnc
Optimistic speculation on your part.


Ebolla

join:2005-09-28
Dracut, MA
reply to hottboiinnc
said by hottboiinnc:

ObamaCare actually will reduce costs of healthcare giving you an option. And as far as him passing it- Mitt first passed it on the great state of MA.

Sadly all it did here in MA is cause the rates to go up and up and benefits to drop. For me to actually use my insurance for pills I have to go through CVS, and for any real benefit I have to buy a 3 month prescription. Walmart cant take my insurance but I buy from local grocery store that actually gives me CHEAPER pills without insurance than if I went through CVS. My insurance hasnt changed in the last 5 years but my costs have doubled. That in no way is reducing my costs.

Telco

join:2008-12-19
reply to Skippy25
Yep

Telco

join:2008-12-19
reply to pnh102
Amazing how you fail to mention that rail is not profitable in America because, unlike the rest of the world, the private companies own the actual rail here.

Whereas, rail is one of the most efficient and cheapest mode of transportation in every single country on the planet but America. That's over 95% of the world's population right there.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:17

1 recommendation

reply to biochemistry
said by biochemistry:

Australia.

Read about the NBN in Australia again....it never planned to roll out fiber everywhere. They're using wireless and satellite to cover HUGE chunks of Austrailia outside of the major metro areas.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.

Telco

join:2008-12-19
reply to FifthE1ement
Here is a direct example. Our private owned airlines are old, ranked last closed to last in service, have a dilapidated fleet and offer bare minimum amenities during flight.

Whereas, the highest ranking airlines on the planet, that are also the most profitable and serve you a good 4 meals per flight are ALL government owned: Singapore, Emirates, and Qatar.

Telco

join:2008-12-19

1 recommendation

reply to Ebolla
Mitts's model is not reducing costs because it still relies on the profit driven private sector. Whereas, the highest ranking and most efficient health systems on the planet, are all single payer or completely government owned.

The best ranked health system on the planet (Switzerland), is still 2 to 3 times cheaper per capita than our model.

If our model worked so great, then surely at least one developed nation would emulate it. Think iPad and iPhone here.

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

1 recommendation

reply to The Limit
Look, I tend to think that everyone should have access to broadband. I just don't see why those of us in rural areas should get subsides for it, nor do I think that decent broadband service requires fiber to the premises. On the last point at least, it seems we agree, so there's that.

As far as my first point, before you reply with an analogy to rural electrification or some such, rural areas still pay more money for the basic necessities of life. My wife and I have to pay to maintain a well and septic tank. We use propane to heat our home, on a BTU to BTU basis it's three times as expensive as natural gas! Fuel oil is an alternative, one that would "only" cost two and a half times as much as natural gas. Electric heating costs range from 2x to 5x the cost of natural gas, depending on where you live, so that's not really an affordable alternative for most people. Around here it would be about 4x the cost of natural gas, so there's that.

Where are my subsides for these basic necessities of life?


The Limit
Premium
join:2007-09-25
Greensboro, NC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Windstream
Invest in alternative energy sources? I mean, I live out in rural country, and we don't use propane. I don't understand why someone would want to use propane, as from personal experience, it's highly variable, unless that's your only option.

It varies from location to location. Based on your argument, electricity isn't a basic necessity, only a luxury. So why not do without? Do you see the hole in your logic? Broadband, as I've argued time and time and time and time again, is not finite. These basic utilities are based on nonrenewable sources of energy (I mean sure, nuclear, but there's always that pesky issue in dealing with waste).

I feel that there were people that thought this way about electricity. Now it's broadband, so hopefully in 20 years the thought process would be changed. I'm just saying, doing away with broadband entirely would bring our economy to a screeching halt. Broadband is becoming more of a necessity every day.
--
"We will evaluate these integrals rigorously if we can, and non-rigorously if we must".
---Victor Moll, invited talk, Tom Osler Fest (April 17, 2010)

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to FifthE1ement
quote:
No offense bro but the government just doesn't run businesses well.

Sorry dude but big business doesn't run business well either. The very notion of profits being siphoned off to shareholders rather than back into the system will always be less efficient. Businesses make decisions on what would be the most profitable... not what would be best for the customer. And the inefficiency that is rampant among big business makes one wonder how they make a profit at all. Most of your 'examples' are non-examples... USPS generates BILLIONS, GM & Amtrak were screwed before the govt took over, solar energy?!? Healthcare has been rising since way before Obama even thought of being president.

The simple fact is there are plenty of SUCCESSFUL community broadband projects currently in operation. Problem is, the pro-corporates in here always regurgitate the same 'failures' that were sued out of business by the incumbents.

A communications infrastructure is a necessity to the well being and advancement of the country and should not be entrusted to greedy companies that care only about their own profit.

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to The Limit
said by The Limit:

Invest in alternative energy sources? I mean, I live out in rural country, and we don't use propane. I don't understand why someone would want to use propane, as from personal experience, it's highly variable, unless that's your only option.

If you have a cheaper alternative that will heat a home through a harsh northeastern winter I'm all ears.

said by The Limit:

Broadband, as I've argued time and time and time and time again, is not finite.

The cost to deliver broadband is real and measurable. Rural areas take away economy of scale, thus increasing the capital expenditure necessary to achieve full coverage. So the question is, who should bear the cost of the initial capital expenditure? The ISP might be able to do it, but they'll want to charge rural customers more money to recoup their investment. Do you take issue with that?

Alternatively, we can fund it through tax dollars and/or a surcharge on existing customers. Personally, I don't really regard this as fair, and if it happens I'm going to be seriously peeved that we aren't doing the same to bring natural gas to rural areas. Once the infrastructure is in place it wouldn't cost any more to deliver gas to rural customers, you just need someone to foot the initial bill to install pipelines, compressor stations, etc.

said by The Limit:

I'm just saying, doing away with broadband entirely would bring our economy to a screeching halt. Broadband is becoming more of a necessity every day.

To be sure, it's becoming more and more essential to life in the 21st century. But it does not follow that we need to subsidize the installation of broadband services for those areas currently lacking them. In any case, the market seems well on it's way to solving this problem with wireless services, which are much cheaper to deploy in rural areas than landline services. WISPs and cellular data are the way to go in rural areas, not investing billions of dollars to string wires all over God's country.
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