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BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to JohnInSJ

Re: [WIN8] Windows 8 --- What benifits over W7-64?

said by JohnInSJ:

Of course one real benefit of W8 over W7 would be if you were running the OS on a touch enabled desktop/laptop. Which will be all of the new ones.

I really fail to see why anybody would resort to smearing greasy fingers all over the screen of their laptop/desktop when they have a superior input method available in front of them, aka a keyboard and mouse/trackpad. I've tried to be open minded about it, I really have, but...
--
Ron Paul 2012 »www.ronpaul2012.com
Beyond AM. Beyond FM. (((XM)))

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC
said by BillRoland:

I really fail to see why anybody would resort to smearing greasy fingers all over the screen of their laptop/desktop when they have a superior input method available in front of them, aka a keyboard and mouse/trackpad. I've tried to be open minded about it, I really have, but...

Ergonomically, it doesn't work in a normal office setting. I chuckle when I watch Daily Planet on Discovery channel, the tech segment, with their big wall display and grand, exagerated gestures, to open a window (probably powered by something like Kinect). It would give you a full body workout, but I can't see doing it all day long.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to BillRoland
said by BillRoland:

said by JohnInSJ:

Of course one real benefit of W8 over W7 would be if you were running the OS on a touch enabled desktop/laptop. Which will be all of the new ones.

I really fail to see why anybody would resort to smearing greasy fingers all over the screen of their laptop/desktop when they have a superior input method available in front of them, aka a keyboard and mouse/trackpad. I've tried to be open minded about it, I really have, but...

Absolutely...

I don't know how the people will be able to work with it all day long. Just try to imagine you have to keep your hands not on the top of your desk, but constantly pointing with their fingers to something on the screen.... It's weird how the designers of new (and "preferred" now user interface) don't see any problems here. Don't they know some (if not many) people are buying keyboard and mouse pads to rest their palms on during all day of their work with computers? Why do they're doing that? It's because they are getting tired. And now they have to lift their hands to rich the screen directly... IMO It's dumb (from ergonomic perspective) to force people to do it whole day long.

There is a place for UI for smartphone and there is a place (and the need) for UI for old desktop environment (proven by many years to work just well in business environments). Forcing the new UI will shoot MS in the foot and push businesses to invest in another OS's. Is that the goal behind this change?
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to BillRoland
said by BillRoland:

said by JohnInSJ:

Of course one real benefit of W8 over W7 would be if you were running the OS on a touch enabled desktop/laptop. Which will be all of the new ones.

I really fail to see why anybody would resort to smearing greasy fingers all over the screen of their laptop/desktop when they have a superior input method available in front of them, aka a keyboard and mouse/trackpad. I've tried to be open minded about it, I really have, but...

Yep. If you use touch devices for everything else (tablets, phones, ereaders) and then sit in front of your compute device, your natural inclination to continue doing the same actions to achieve the same results is there. Especially for non-technical people (you know, the ones who spend the most money on stuff.) The "smearing" thing - you wipe the glass now and then
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
said by JohnInSJ:

said by BillRoland:

said by JohnInSJ:

Of course one real benefit of W8 over W7 would be if you were running the OS on a touch enabled desktop/laptop. Which will be all of the new ones.

I really fail to see why anybody would resort to smearing greasy fingers all over the screen of their laptop/desktop when they have a superior input method available in front of them, aka a keyboard and mouse/trackpad. I've tried to be open minded about it, I really have, but...

Yep. If you use touch devices for everything else (tablets, phones, ereaders) and then sit in front of your compute device, your natural inclination to continue doing the same actions to achieve the same results is there. Especially for non-technical people (you know, the ones who spend the most money on stuff.) The "smearing" thing - you wipe the glass now and then

I guess all I can say is "we'll see." I wouldn't bet my house on Windows 8 being a raving success.
--
Ron Paul 2012 »www.ronpaul2012.com
Beyond AM. Beyond FM. (((XM)))


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
said by BillRoland:

I guess all I can say is "we'll see." I wouldn't bet my house on Windows 8 being a raving success.

Microsoft is, along with many other big bets, all related.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit
reply to JohnInSJ
I don't see why everyone assumes it's "keyboard and mouse" versus "touch screen".

The mouse is just a hack because we don't have touch screens. Before mice, we used light pens, which was just a hack to simulate touch screens. (Light pens failed, in my opinion, because they were fatiguing to use - they were pretty heavy).

I'd remind you all that the point of pointer devices is to point at something on the screen. Pointing your finger is more natural than moving a device that moves a pointer to the thing you want pointed at.

The winning combination to me looks like keyboard and touch screen.

Agreed that the 'smear' problem is a problem, though. Ditto the precision problem, though perhaps a stylus might be the answer.

But most of you luddites seem to have fixated on the only pointer device you know as the ultimate in pointer devices. It ain't. It's just a very very successful hack.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Glen T
said by Glen T:

Ergonomically, it doesn't work in a normal office setting.

What, people find it inefficient in offices to swipe the right bar, tap settings, tap power, tap shut down in Windows 8

vs.

Start. Shutdown in Windows 7?

The Windows 8 method seems to go well with a heavily paperworked corporate environment that has management forms for every task imaginable.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to dave
said by dave:

Pointing your finger is more natural than moving a device that moves a pointer to the thing you want pointed at.

Really? Is that so simple? And you failed to see any difference here?

Mouse is precise pointing device. You can point to one pixel on the screen. People who do graphic work, make icons, etc know how important it is. People who do simple text editing know it too. Even windows borders has just couple of pixels in width, But with mouse you can easily point on the border and change its size in a snap.

Finger, on the other hand (actually on both hands ) can point only on a small area (5x5px or bigger, depending on the size of your finger and how much beer you had) and never on one pixel.

That difference required complete re-design of UI. UI for fingers can't replace UI that was designed with precise mouse pointer in mind. Thus, you don't have windows, where you can't change their sizes - you have big tails and full screen applications instead. Of course you still can handle it with precise mouse pointer, but what's the point? It's like hammering nails with a microscope - it may work (device is heavy and feel metal in some parts) too, but again, what's the point to do it this way?

Finally, regards to point of pointing on something on the screen and is it natural or not. It could be considered natural for 1 year old child. But when one has ever tried to move mouse in front of computer and see what it does on the screen it becomes as natural as any other actions. It's like you have to try to ride a bike (and may not consider it natural at first time), but after a little practice you start thinking that it's actually natural for you (you don't need to think how to do it when you do it)...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
Yeah, yeah, I get all that - that's why I said "there is a precision problem" or words to that effect.

What I'm talking about is the sheer ludditeism exhibited here, the notion that there can never be anything better than what we have today. This is not a claim that Windows 8 is better than Windows 7. I don't plan to upgrade existing systems myself.

My topic was 'I don't see why everyone assumes it's "keyboard and mouse" versus "touch screen"'.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

said by Glen T:

Ergonomically, it doesn't work in a normal office setting.

What, people find it inefficient in offices to swipe the right bar, tap settings, tap power, tap shut down in Windows 8

vs.

Start. Shutdown in Windows 7?

The Windows 8 method seems to go well with a heavily paperworked corporate environment that has management forms for every task imaginable.

I just click an icon I made, which is a shortcut to the shutdown (and restart) command line commands. They're tiles, too. Or I press the power button (which is set to "shutdown" as its action. Or close the lid for sleep.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC

2 edits
reply to dave
said by dave:

Yeah, yeah, I get all that - that's why I said "there is a precision problem" or words to that effect.

What I'm talking about is the sheer ludditeism exhibited here, the notion that there can never be anything better than what we have today. This is not a claim that Windows 8 is better than Windows 7. I don't plan to upgrade existing systems myself.

My topic was 'I don't see why everyone assumes it's "keyboard and mouse" versus "touch screen"'.

The topic is if there is a benefit in Win 8 over Win 7. If we all agree that the interface formerly known as Metro is the main benefit, then I have to answer, no, because touch screen computing does not make my job easier. And spending extra time working around a GUI that puts touch screen computing up front and center, does not make my job easier.

Show me touch computing where my hands are resting in an argonomically correct position, with my elbows at a 90 degree angle, while my head is held at a comfortable angle (neck not bent with head looking down) and I have precise control over the cursor at all times, and I'll see the benefit and stop being a luddite.

Maybe in Corning's vision of the future, but I think that we are a ways off of that (and note the lack of an intrusive OS):

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZkHpNnX···youtu.be


P.S. Another issue is that I use 1920 x 1200 resolutions screens (which are getting harder to find as vendors are chopping vertical resolution to match HD formats). In order for a 24" UXGA screen to be comfortably in my field of view (progressive lenses require more head turning/scanning) it is just beyond my reach, making touch screens absolutely useless to me.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
said by Glen T:

The topic is if there is a benefit in Win 8 over Win 7. If we all agree that the interface formerly known as Metro is the main benefit, then I have to answer, no, because touch screen computing does not make my job easier. And spending extra time working around a GUI that puts touch screen computing up front and center, does not make my job easier.

Show me touch computing where my hands are resting in an argonomically correct position, with my elbows at a 90 degree angle, while my head is held at a comfortable angle (neck not bent with head looking down) and I have precise control over the cursor at all times, and I'll see the benefit and stop being a luddite.

And one more thing about touch interface, that should be mentioned here. Along it's being imprecise (pointing to a big spot, not to one pixel), being against all ergonomic recommendations and requiring to clean the screen from greasy smudges, playing with smartphone a lot, I found it completely unreliable. You touch the screen and you never know if your touch is accepted as input or not (due to low pressure, brief time, etc). If you're lucky the button you touch will become green for a short while and it actually may help you to recognize, that input was accepted. But in many cases I touch it, I wait it for the action, there is nothing happened and I touch it again ... just to discover, that at the very same moment image of the button was replaced with a new button, that takes that input as a request for a new action (which I don't want/expect)...

There is a reason, why mouse has buttons, that click (hint - to give you feedback). It's the very same reason, why a good keyboard has a distinctive feedback too, BTW. There is no such thing with touch screens. Thus to make the UI work more reliable, it should be redesigned and many confirmation dialog boxes should be added for every critical action. That is also useful in cases when I may accidentally touch my smart phone screen without intention to do anything.

Bottom line the touch screen interface is (additionally to other problems mentioned earlier) unreliable and therefore requires a different UI, that is specifically designed with that "feature" in mind. That's one more reason why I don't want / need W8 on my desktop.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...