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OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
reply to BronsCon

Re: TekSavvy - glorified reseller, not ISP

I'm not interested in nitpicking with what you've said, but I do want to clarify some general misunderstandings:

I never suggested TekSavvy come and fix my internal wiring. How did you conclude that internal wiring is the problem? Neither TekSavvy nor myself have done that, and based on all the logs I submitted to them and the line monitoring data now available (see a previous post) of my connection, it doesn't add up. Looking at last night, packet loss occured from approx. 11 p.m. to 3 a.m. (as far as I can tell, pretty much to the exact hour), and the line has been clear of any packet loss before and after. This suggests a network / external issue to me. If you have insight into why it's internal wiring, feel free to share. I do take constructive suggestions - one of them was to implement the Line Monitoring service here on DSLr. I hope it will help isolate the issue.

It's understood that TekSavvy doesn't have full monitoring capability of their customers lines. I never suggested otherwise. Given that, they a) have an obligation to make it a top priority to get that (if they want to provide this service to customers as an ISP, and not just be a reseller of Rogers' services), and b) come up with workarounds in the meantime. I've already suggested they can create their own customer-based tools that will greatly enhance their ability to troubleshoot remotely, and not rely on customers to do the troubleshooting for them. If / when they determine that absolutely the issue is with internal wiring, they can then pass the buck to the customer - not beforehand. TSI Gabe has reviewed the logs submitted, and believes this could be a local node congestion issue - that's one possibility. We haven't narrowed it down to internal wiring (yet).

Service advisories are common practise, and any ISP *should* be able to provide them. What information Rogers does or does not provide is between TekSavvy and Rogers - they need to get that information to properly support their customers.

I'm fully cognizant that Rogers doesn't want to change things. As TSI Marc has pointed out, though, that has to change. TekSavvy and other TPIAs cannot operate this way if they want to be successful as ISPs. You said it yourself - if TekSavvy cannot offer services they promised to provide, customers will favour Rogers and will leave. At the end of the day, TPIAs will become a niche-market provider - servicing customers who hope that "one day" things will change, or are OK getting subpar service for a bit of cost savings - if they cannot surpass these obstacles.

Regardless who supplies TekSavvy with the ability to service customers as an ISP, it is TekSavvy's responsibility to provide support. If that support is not provided, and they end not providing the service and/or needlessly wasting their customers' time, it's up to TekSavvy to make things right. If you read my latest posts, TekSavvy agrees, and is working towards that.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
said by OneWorld9:

Service advisories are common practise, and any ISP *should* be able to provide them.

The incumbent providers do not provide such advisories. Even the vast majority of telcos do a very poor job of providing any kind of service advisories even with major outages.

OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
said by 34764170:

The incumbent providers do not provide such advisories. Even the vast majority of telcos do a very poor job of providing any kind of service advisories even with major outages.

»service.sympatico.ca/index.cfm?m···ceStatus

»TekSavvy FAQ »Bell Service Advisories


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
This is a complicated issue.

We don't get anything from any incumbent other than maintenance or downtime on links that we are explicitly paying for. If something is going on in Toronto and we have 100 users affected. We hear about it when they all call us.

The issue is that for 100 users we're going to notify thousands and thousands of people even though this has nothing to do with them.

This is what we've been doing. We have no way to know how many users are actually affected. With Bell and Rogers in particular since we have so many users with them, when there is any outage almost anywhere, we hear about it.

What's the right thing to do?
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
said by TSI Marc:

This is a complicated issue.

...

What's the right thing to do?

I'll assume you're asking me (and others) this question, and that it's not rhetorical.

I think what you should do (assuming you want to be an ISP, and not simply a reseller) is outlined in my longer post above. How you arrive at that level of service (both short and long term), that's for you to figure out - I did provide some suggestions to consider. Beyond that, if you want to hire me to consult with TSI about this, I'm open to suggestions.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·WIND Mobile
If TekSavvy was a "reseller of Rogers services", then the world would be different. You'd be paying very very close to Rogers rates, and be paying UBB with their ridiculously low caps.

It's time you got that idea out of your head (of being a Rogers reseller). That they have to pay Rogers or Bell to get from their network to you is the limit of Rogers involvement. A reseller would be Rogers from end to end.

There are precious few "tools" that one can create that allow diagnosis of connection problems. Heck, Rogers don't provide any to themselves either, relying on tracerts that they commonly make invalid assumptions from, and the modem stats that they make invalid assumptions from.

If you look at any cable MSO elsewhere in the world, they all suffer the same problem ... because it's hard to isolate problems except when they stand out like a sore thumb ... like an upstream signal strength of 55 dBmV

Tracerts with timeouts in them take a lot of working out to determine where a problem may be, if there's a problem at all. I can show you tracerts that are utterly useless and will lead you to the wrong assumption.


NightMayor

join:2010-04-28
York, ON
reply to TSI Marc
Is there a way to just notify a select area instead of thousands and thousands of people, say by postal code? If it's a local node congestion you wouldn't need to issue a big advisory, possibly only to customers within that postal code or near a major intersection and adjust accordingly based on calls/posts.

This is for a local area obviously. If it's a spread out 100 people then it's not wise to issue one.

Just putting my 2 cents.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·Comcast Business..
·SONIC.NET
reply to OneWorld9
I think you misread. I never suggested that your issue was related to internal wiring. I was stating that TSI can't legally touch Rogers' equipment so it would be pointless to hire their own techs. To head off the possibility of you coming back with a remark about internal wiring issues, I added the bit about internal wiring not being their responsibility. Please go back and read it again if you still think I said something different. That said, yes, it does sound from your description (and everything thus far in this thread) to be a network issue.

Regarding the customer-based tools you suggest, from where do you propose these tools gather the plethora of data that is available from the ISP-facing interface of the customer's modem (and from the head-end), that the customer-facing interface does not provide access to? I'm just curious, how do you figure such a tool would improve the situation and if it's such a great idea, why does no other ISP use such a tool?

said by OneWorld9:

You said it yourself - if TekSavvy cannot offer services they promised to provide, customers will favour Rogers and will leave. At the end of the day, TPIAs will become a niche-market provider - servicing customers who hope that "one day" things will change, or are OK getting subpar service for a bit of cost savings - if they cannot surpass these obstacles.

Again, you misunderstand me. I laid out the choices; deal with a bully and PAY more for less, or pay someone else to deal with the bully for you and GET more for less. I then laid out the cons of the second option (the con of the first being paying more and getting less) and pointed out that if people want to enact change they need to suck it up and deal with the bully's temper tantrums when they choose the second option. You are absolutely correct, however, in your statement that people in general won't do this.

And yes, I do know that TekSavvy generally agrees that it's on them to make it right; however, it's not within the realm of possibility for them to do so monetarily, as it seemed you may have been suggesting, and still stay in business to support the majority of their customer base who don't have issues. It's reasonable to expect someone to face the fact that the service they provide to the many who don't want a refund (no issues, or issues resolved without incident) outweighs the benefit to them of providing such a refund to keep one customer. It's an unfortunate fact, but it is a fact.

There is no way TSI could have foreseen Rogers being this dickish about things and by the time the realization came about, it was too late to turn back. A unilateral stop-sell on cable in Rogers-serviced markets would spell doom for TekSavvy, you know it, I know it, and most importantly Rogers knows it, and you can bet your ass they use that fact in negotiations with Tek. "You need us at this point, without us, you'll lose enough revenue that you won't live to see the next contract negotiation, so no, we're not changing a thing." sounds plausible.

I'm not arguing how it should be, I'm pointing out the facts of the situation, so people (in general, not just you) understand why it's the way it is and not the way it should be. TPIAs have no leverage in negotiations with Rogers, or any other last-mile infrastructure provider and, given that they're in direct competition with the same, things can get ugly pretty quick. Bell is bound by a lot more legislation than Rogers and the other cable providers, so you hear about this a little (not much) less with Bell lately, and the other cable providers are nowhere near as dickish toward Tek as Rogers is, despite the contracts being nearly identical. This truly is less of a TSI problem and more of a Rogers problem, as far as the cause; insomuch as the solution, well, TSI knows what needs to be done, Rogers knows what needs to be done, guess which one of them isn't willing to do it?

The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
reply to OneWorld9
said by OneWorld9:

Given that, they a) have an obligation to make it a top priority to get that (if they want to provide this service to customers as an ISP, and not just be a reseller of Rogers' services), and b) come up with workarounds in the meantime. I've already suggested they can create their own customer-based tools that will greatly enhance their ability to troubleshoot remotely, and not rely on customers to do the troubleshooting for them.

They absolutely should not make this a priority. Given that it would involve a massive and probably unwinnable legal fight to get the CRTC to force Rogers to provide such tools, I'd rather they kept the money and maintain their low prices.

Resellers don't operate their own large-scale networks. TSI does. They have no choice but to use Bell and Rogers to connect individual homes and businesses to those networks. That's not going to change any time soon.

said by OneWorld9:

Service advisories are common practise, and any ISP *should* be able to provide them. What information Rogers does or does not provide is between TekSavvy and Rogers - they need to get that information to properly support their customers.

Rogers is horrific at providing such updates even to their own customers. They have no incentive to give TSI any information they aren't forced to...we will never, ever get real information on things like node congestion or the hilarious DNS fail across much of Rogers' network today (which they didn't communicate until after it was repaired).

TSI has been very clear in communicating problems on their network like the POI congestion earlier this year. Even though that was caused by Rogers' incompetence and neglect, it was on TSI's side, so they advised us of the problem.

said by OneWorld9:

I'm fully cognizant that Rogers doesn't want to change things. As TSI Marc has pointed out, though, that has to change. TekSavvy and other TPIAs cannot operate this way if they want to be successful as ISPs. You said it yourself - if TekSavvy cannot offer services they promised to provide, customers will favour Rogers and will leave. At the end of the day, TPIAs will become a niche-market provider - servicing customers who hope that "one day" things will change, or are OK getting subpar service for a bit of cost savings - if they cannot surpass these obstacles.

TSI's growth would indicate otherwise. I wouldn't go back to Rogers under just about any circumstances and neither would anyone I know using TSI, Distributel, or Acanac. The cable TPIA model could certainly be better, but it is succeeding in spite of the behaviour of the incumbent. We can always hope for Rogers to behave better, but it's hardly going to be the end of TSI if they continue to be intransigent.

said by OneWorld9:

Regardless who supplies TekSavvy with the ability to service customers as an ISP, it is TekSavvy's responsibility to provide support. If that support is not provided, and they end not providing the service and/or needlessly wasting their customers' time, it's up to TekSavvy to make things right. If you read my latest posts, TekSavvy agrees, and is working towards that.

It's their responsibility to support it in every way they can. When they drop the ball, they should try to make things right. But when the problem is not on their network, there is only so much they can do. When it's on the customer's end, they troubleshoot just like any ISP, and often it's going to be frustrating for everyone. When it's on Rogers' end, they have to work through a slow and unreliable system to get a hostile entity to fix problems they don't even want to acknowledge. I don't envy the TPIA providers.

xdrag

join:2005-02-18
North York, ON

4 edits
reply to TSI Marc
said by TSI Marc:

This is a complicated issue.

We don't get anything from any incumbent other than maintenance or downtime on links that we are explicitly paying for. If something is going on in Toronto and we have 100 users affected. We hear about it when they all call us.

The issue is that for 100 users we're going to notify thousands and thousands of people even though this has nothing to do with them.

This is what we've been doing. We have no way to know how many users are actually affected. With Bell and Rogers in particular since we have so many users with them, when there is any outage almost anywhere, we hear about it.

What's the right thing to do?

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

If you think there's a downtime or congestion in an area. It wouldn't hurt to post it. When those who are affected by these unforeseen problems, they can see on your website and be like "oh, maybe that's why my connection is sucking".

i.e. comstock POI is being upgraded - users in the scarborough area may experience network issues

said by OneWorld9:

Service advisories are common practise, and any ISP *should* be able to provide them. What information Rogers does or does not provide is between TekSavvy and Rogers - they need to get that information to properly support their customers.

I'm fully cognizant that Rogers doesn't want to change things. As TSI Marc has pointed out, though, that has to change. TekSavvy and other TPIAs cannot operate this way if they want to be successful as ISPs. You said it yourself - if TekSavvy cannot offer services they promised to provide, customers will favour Rogers and will leave. At the end of the day, TPIAs will become a niche-market provider - servicing customers who hope that "one day" things will change, or are OK getting subpar service for a bit of cost savings - if they cannot surpass these obstacles.

Regardless who supplies TekSavvy with the ability to service customers as an ISP, it is TekSavvy's responsibility to provide support. If that support is not provided, and they end not providing the service and/or needlessly wasting their customers' time, it's up to TekSavvy to make things right. If you read my latest posts, TekSavvy agrees, and is working towards that.

Great theoretical points. you're saying we should change this and all these problems. but How? you've pointed out all the problems but what's going to happen between here and there. How practical are all these changes, how hard/easy will it be to implement, how will we execute this, how do we find support, how much will it cost.

It's like saying, if we had fusion power, it could solve the problem of all our energy needs. How do you get fusion power?

Someone people think they have great ideas (sometimes they are) but in reality they're either terrible or not plausible to execute - dragon's den. In reality, you need to pick a few gems and run away with them.

The biggest need at the moment is consumer education. Most people have NO clue to what's going on and only blame TSI as their sole source of woes. If people became self-educated on the issue between TSI's arm-lock with rogers and bell, there would be more action. The prime example is UBB. People heard about it, learned about it and took action against it.

»openmedia.ca was suppose to do this, but it's clearly not working. Bell and Rogers own all the media outlets in canada so unless you start a riot in DT, most of this will fall on deaf ears


NightMayor

join:2010-04-28
York, ON

1 edit
said by xdrag:

said by TSI Marc:

This is a complicated issue.

We don't get anything from any incumbent other than maintenance or downtime on links that we are explicitly paying for. If something is going on in Toronto and we have 100 users affected. We hear about it when they all call us.

The issue is that for 100 users we're going to notify thousands and thousands of people even though this has nothing to do with them.

This is what we've been doing. We have no way to know how many users are actually affected. With Bell and Rogers in particular since we have so many users with them, when there is any outage almost anywhere, we hear about it.

What's the right thing to do?

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

If you think there's a downtime or congestion in an area. It wouldn't hurt to post it. When those who are affected by these unforeseen problems, they can see on your website and be like "oh, maybe that's why my connection is sucking".

i.e. comstock POI is being upgraded - users in the scarborough area may experience network issues

I agree, there needs to be something there on the website with suspected downtimes. And like you said it could be anything more. Right now as far as I know we only have advisories on the phone like when you call Teksavvy there may be a message right off where it says which POI has problems.

I think a map would be good, like Toronto hydro's, since not everyone knows about POIs. Red could mean confirmed disturbance, yellow could mean suspected, and green could mean normal.

said by xdrag:

The biggest need at the moment is consumer education. Most people have NO clue to what's going on and only blame TSI as their sole source of woes. If people became self-educated on the issue between TSI's arm-lock with rogers and bell, there would be more action. The prime example is UBB. People heard about it, learned about it and took action against it.

»openmedia.ca was suppose to do this, but it's clearly not working. Bell and Rogers own all the media outlets in canada so unless you start a riot in DT, most of this will fall on deaf ears

I also agree with this. Communication is always key. I think the problem though is that the general public thought just because UBB is gone all our internet problems are solved. So yeah, there needs to be another uprising of sorts, rioting is a little extreme IMHO.


QuantumPimp

join:2012-02-19
Reviews:
·voip.ms
reply to The Mongoose
said by The Mongoose:

They absolutely should not make this a priority. Given that it would involve a massive and probably unwinnable legal fight to get the CRTC to force Rogers to provide such tools, I'd rather they kept the money and maintain their low prices.

Agreed. I often wonder what would happen if customers successfully deluge the CRTC with complaints and thus force a change to service level agreements. Does this automatically mean even more money and power to the incumbents? I'd rather trust TSI to apply pressure, when required, to enhance their product as they see fit.


NytOwl

join:2012-09-27
canada
reply to NightMayor
Right now as far as I know we only have advisories on the phone like when you call Teksavvy there may be a message right off where it says which POI has problems.

I think a map would be good, like Toronto hydro's, since not everyone knows about POIs. Red could mean confirmed disturbance, yellow could mean suspected, and green could mean normal.
Great points here.

I heavily dislike not being advised about a known problem until I pick up the phone to hear an automated message telling me so. It would be a lot easier for TekSavvy to publish these known issues, as they become known, on a "Network Status" page of their website, and/or via Twitter to their followers. Ditto for Facebook. We are in the age of social media, after all. Yes, there is this forum, which is very useful, but they'd reach far more clients via other means.

Separate of that, I can't help but to have some sympathy for TekSavvy here.

For a few years, I worked for Primus Canada, whose DSL service (among other types of connections) operates mostly at Bell's mercy. Many-a-night would there suddenly be a surge of calls coming in, reporting issues in a particular area. It wasn't until some time would pass that we'd learn it was due to maintenance on Bell's end that we had zero notice or control of. Customers were screaming at us while my employer was not at fault in any way. The irony is that some of those clients had just switched to Primus from Bell, to get away from the headaches that they had gone through with Bell. Surprise!! ... At the end of the day they were still saving money, though.

Side note [& rant]: virtually all of us who have worked in ISP support can certainly recall [business] customers who are yelling that they're losing hundreds of dollars every hour that their Internet is down, while they solely rely on one single basic DSL connection. ...Dude. Get a backup/secondary connection. And get off my phone.

My 2¢.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·Comcast Business..
·SONIC.NET
reply to QuantumPimp
said by QuantumPimp:

said by The Mongoose:

They absolutely should not make this a priority. Given that it would involve a massive and probably unwinnable legal fight to get the CRTC to force Rogers to provide such tools, I'd rather they kept the money and maintain their low prices.

Agreed. I often wonder what would happen if customers successfully deluge the CRTC with complaints and thus force a change to service level agreements. Does this automatically mean even more money and power to the incumbents? I'd rather trust TSI to apply pressure, when required, to enhance their product as they see fit.

Now, being a couple thousand miles outside of TSI's service area, I can't say with any level of certainty that they're doing a good job of this, but I will say this: I've followed TSI for the last 7 years or so; should I ever find myself within their service area for an extended period of time, they will have my business. Everything I've read in these forums seems to indicate that they're doing an excellent job in the face of unreasonable suppliers (who are only so because they are also competitors).

To put things into perspective, go into any other ISP's forum here and count the complaint threads. Now, divide those numbers by the most reasonable estimate of the number of subscribers for each ISP you can find, to get a percentage of users who complain here. Where does TSI fall in that list? Last time I did this compared to the ISPs I've used personally, they were at the bottom of the list, lowest percentage of complaints; given that they're probably the ISP with the highest percentage of DSLR users out of the ISPs I compared (AT&T, Cox, and Comcast, 3 US ISPs, though I'm sure anyone here already knows that). That's farkin' impressive.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5
reply to QuantumPimp

Welcome to Dystopia

I'm in favor of going to war with the CRTC and the big incumbents, and get the rest of the country embroiled in a huge ass legal fight all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada to break our LAST MILE Infrastructure AWAY from the dastardly Incumbents.

It NEEDS to be DONE! Before that can happen a catalyst has to come to enact such upheaval. Once thats happened successfully then a Last Mile Governing body can be established to oversee and manage this infrastructure for the good of ALL.

Right now, I don't forsee anything of this nature happening because the majority of users out there either don't know any better, or just plain don't care. For now we have to live with it. Like it or not; and make do with what we do have for the interim.

Dystopia: Coming soon to a reality near you!
News Flash: Its allready here!

--
You see there is only one constant. One universal. It is the only real truth. Causality. Action, reaction. Cause and effect.
Twitter:Merv Chat:irc.teksavvy.ca

OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
reply to sbrook

Re: TekSavvy - glorified reseller, not ISP

said by sbrook:

It's time you got that idea out of your head (of being a Rogers reseller). That they have to pay Rogers or Bell to get from their network to you is the limit of Rogers involvement. A reseller would be Rogers from end to end.

I oversimplified TSI to a "reseller" to point out that the service is comparable to one, since many of the issues related to support are in Rogers' hands, and they have to reach out to Rogers to get things done - I totally understand they are a "hybrid". The point is they have a long way to go, in my mind, before they compare with the level of reliability and support I received when I was with Rogers. What good is it that you can talk to someone locally, who is fluent in English, if they can't resolve your issue? I don't call TekSavvy to chat with someone. I'm also not going to debate why that is - I do agree a lot of this is Rogers' fault. However, I'd like to see TekSavvy get to that level of reliability / support and even better, if at all possible. Higher costs aside, my connection *was* better with Rogers - for *several years*. Downtime was infrequent, and usually a matter of hours (never longer than a couple of days), and I only had a slow speed issue (lasting long enough to warrant support) *once* - it was quickly repaired by a tech putting a filter on my cable, because the signal was too strong. This is exactly the same connection (I have been at this address a long time) that I'm using with TekSavvy - when I switched, no tech came out to install anything. However, in the past less than two years, there have been numerous support-related issues / headaches.

As I stated in my first post, the reason I switched to TekSavvy was primarily cost related - specifically, related to caps and UBB - and the reviews suggesting that TekSavvy was a "better ISP".

I do agree the incumbents shouldn't have so much control over the "last mile", and they shouldn't be allowed to charge such high prices. However, we need to be clear about this - if TekSavvy is giving us these great deals at the expense of support, then people need to be informed of this and make their decision of which ISP to go with when they are informed. I joined TekSavvy with the impression it was "better" than the incumbents. My experience shows otherwise. TekSavvy's marketing suggests they are "different, in a good way". I suppose that depends on your definition of "good". I don't agree that "good" includes subpar service. I'm paying less, but I didn't agree to pay less to get an unrealiable connection and no real support. I think everyone deserves to know the truth about the service they can expect.

Is it nice that the CEO and staff talk to us in a forum? Of course it is. Will talking with the ISP actually make the service better? Time will tell.

OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
reply to BronsCon
said by BronsCon:

I think you misread. I never suggested that your issue was related to internal wiring.

Fair enough. However, my suggestions are based on the issues I am personally experiencing, and my overall understanding of what an ideal ISP would do. I can see you're talking about overall support, and I do agree TekSavvy does have practical limitations to what they can support. However, if there is an issue with the network (as it appears there may indeed be in my case, so one can assume others as well - am I the only TekSavvy customer in my area?), then this definitely falls in TekSavvy's area of responsibility.

I agree with your other points.

said by BronsCon:

That said, yes, it does sound from your description (and everything thus far in this thread) to be a network issue.

Thank you - this is my point. If it's a network issue, TekSavvy needs to deal with it. Two months later, it's still not clear what the problem is and it's not resolved.

said by BronsCon:

Regarding the customer-based tools you suggest, from where do you propose these tools gather the plethora of data that is available from the ISP-facing interface of the customer's modem (and from the head-end), that the customer-facing interface does not provide access to? I'm just curious, how do you figure such a tool would improve the situation and if it's such a great idea, why does no other ISP use such a tool?

I'll assume you're asking with an open mind, and not simply to refute the idea, so I'll try to be as clear as I can about this.

Throughout the past two months of troubleshooting my issue with TekSavvy, they requested I submit various logs to them, including ping, tracert, etc. Each time, gathering those logs took me approx. 45 mins. or longer. I am well-versed on how to run these DOS commands and gather the logs. If this is what TekSavvy requires to open tickets with Rogers for support, all of this could have been automated. This is the very minimum TekSavvy could do - take responsibility for gathering this information, and not rely on a customer (whose level of technical knowledge will vary greatly) to do that for them. I do agree that these kinds of tools are not ideal, compared to the tools that Rogers techs have and should be available to TekSavvy. However, given these limitations, it should not be be the responsibility of the customer to gather all this information which TekSavvy could easily do themselves.

I am not an ISP network tech, so I don't know how far TekSavvy could develop the customer-based tools, but I do know the support experience could be greatly improved. The DSLr Line Monitor is another example - not ideal, but at least we have a clear idea now of when packet loss is happening. It took a member of the DSLr to suggest setting this up. Why didn't TekSavvy suggest this from Day 1 of my current issue? Why is the onus on the customer to solve his/her own problems? My point is simple - TekSavvy needs to take responsibility for ensuring a service they provide works. They cannot see the Rogers side of things, so they rely on the customer to advise them. I think they could do a lot to make and/or implement customer-based tools that would advise them without the customer getting directly involved.

Both Rogers and Bell provide software with their service. One of the things the software does is assist in monitoring / troubleshooting your connection. Although I personally choose not to install that software, I think if the software is created with a high level of professionalism (which TekSavvy, as an ISP, should be able to accomplish) then it should be made available to TekSavvy customers as well. At the very least, if there's a connection problem and TekSavvy needs to gather data from the customer's end (which they do need to do at present, since they don't have access to the incumbents tools), they can suggest the customer install / use their provided software tools. I've already suggested this to TekSavvy, and TSI David agrees this would be very helpful - at the very least, they can automate their log-gathering with a batch file. I think they could do much better than that, though.

said by BronsCon:

I then laid out the cons of the second option (the con of the first being paying more and getting less) and pointed out that if people want to enact change they need to suck it up and deal with the bully's temper tantrums when they choose the second option. You are absolutely correct, however, in your statement that people in general won't do this.

Therein lies the essence of my thread in the first place. If customers will not accept a subpar service, it needs to change. Those who come to TekSavvy must be fully apprised that they are choosing TekSavvy, with all its disadvantages, to support this cause. TekSavvy's marketing does not in one bit suggest this - it says "We are committed to giving our customers the best service possible". Where's that "best service"? I don't see it yet. I feel it's very important for a company to be who they say they are. If TekSavvy's approach is to differentiate themselves from the incumbents by saying they are "honest", and "different, in a good way", and they provide the "best service" ... that's exactly what they need to do.

said by BronsCon:

And yes, I do know that TekSavvy generally agrees that it's on them to make it right; however, it's not within the realm of possibility for them to do so monetarily, as it seemed you may have been suggesting, and still stay in business to support the majority of their customer base who don't have issues. It's reasonable to expect someone to face the fact that the service they provide to the many who don't want a refund (no issues, or issues resolved without incident) outweighs the benefit to them of providing such a refund to keep one customer. It's an unfortunate fact, but it is a fact.

You seem to be fairly reasonable in your discussions, so again, I'm going to be very frank. I disagree. TekSavvy is a business, like any other ... a business, by definition, exists to make a profit. If TekSavvy cannot run a business model that makes a profit, and at the same time provide all the great things they promise their customers they will provide, then that's a mistake on their part. Alternatively, if they are just doing this for the "cause" of making changes in Canada, wonderful - in that case, they would need to be prepared to sustain a loss and compensate any customers who they didn't provide the service the customer signed up for. When they also go so far as to ask the customer to waste a lot of time performing troubleshooting when they themselves have not ruled out a network issue (which is their responsibility), they do indeed need to make things right. Whatever losses they may incur as a result, that's solely because of their current processes and procedures. If they want someone like myself to troubleshoot for them, they can put me on their payroll.

I'm not disputing it's a terrible situation for any TPIA to be in. However, they clearly want to compete with the incumbents as a "better service". I joined TekSavvy with this impression. My experience being otherwise, I'm sharing that it isn't (which some people have appreciated). They have offered to make things right, so I'm giving them that chance.

OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
reply to NightMayor
said by NightMayor:

said by xdrag:

said by TSI Marc:

...

What's the right thing to do?

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

If you think there's a downtime or congestion in an area. It wouldn't hurt to post it. When those who are affected by these unforeseen problems, they can see on your website and be like "oh, maybe that's why my connection is sucking".

i.e. comstock POI is being upgraded - users in the scarborough area may experience network issues

I agree, there needs to be something there on the website with suspected downtimes. And like you said it could be anything more. Right now as far as I know we only have advisories on the phone like when you call Teksavvy there may be a message right off where it says which POI has problems.

I think a map would be good, like Toronto hydro's, since not everyone knows about POIs. Red could mean confirmed disturbance, yellow could mean suspected, and green could mean normal.

+1 ... this is constructive and getting somewhere. It's a good start.

said by NightMayor:

said by xdrag:

The biggest need at the moment is consumer education. Most people have NO clue to what's going on and only blame TSI as their sole source of woes. If people became self-educated on the issue between TSI's arm-lock with rogers and bell, there would be more action. The prime example is UBB. People heard about it, learned about it and took action against it.

»openmedia.ca was suppose to do this, but it's clearly not working. Bell and Rogers own all the media outlets in canada so unless you start a riot in DT, most of this will fall on deaf ears

I also agree with this. Communication is always key. I think the problem though is that the general public thought just because UBB is gone all our internet problems are solved. So yeah, there needs to be another uprising of sorts, rioting is a little extreme IMHO.

+1. I'm all for this as well. While TekSavvy (and other TPIAs) work towards improving their service to the best possible levels (given the limitations of working with incumbents), getting things to change is obviously one of the main factors needed for long-term benefits for all.

There was no violence (that I'm aware of) which caused so many people in Canada to protest UBB - there doesn't need to be here either. Education / action is what is needed.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia
reply to TwiztedZero

Re: Welcome to Dystopia

said by TwiztedZero:

I'm in favor of going to war with the CRTC and the big incumbents, and get the rest of the country embroiled in a huge ass legal fight all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada to break our LAST MILE Infrastructure AWAY from the dastardly Incumbents.

Who is going to pay for it? If this ever came close to happening. They would create a company in the US and hand the last mile over to them, and when the government goes to take their last mile, they'll sue for compensation under NAFTA.

It's already happened, I just don't remember who the company was. It was a Canadian company, incorporated in Delaware.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28

1 recommendation

Ironically, Rogers was down this week. We weren't.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
reply to xdrag

Re: TekSavvy - glorified reseller, not ISP

said by xdrag:

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

»www.teksavvy.com/en/support/tools/tools

twitter: @TekSavvyNetwork
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

xdrag

join:2005-02-18
North York, ON

1 edit
said by TSI Marc:

said by xdrag:

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

»www.teksavvy.com/en/support/tools/tools

twitter: @TekSavvyNetwork

That's good but i think that's too hidden honestly.

Support -> tools -> tools. The average person will only spend 10 seconds on a webpage.

IMO it should be smack in the frontpage or a link that easily be followed from there.

A twitter box for network status on the right hand-side would be a nice addition.

A good way to implement a mapping system for outage is flagging. When a customer calls in or contacts CSR about a network disruption (speed/packetloss/congestion), the system can flag their location at the end of the call. Overtime, if there's a high concentration of flags in a certain area, the manager of the CSR can review the heat-map and issue "suspected" node congestion notices.

I'm unsure how practical or easy this would be to implement but I think that would be a simple way giving your CSR a tool to check for network congestion and the consumers as well.

OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
said by xdrag:

said by TSI Marc:

said by xdrag:

Marc, on the TSI website, you need to have a section to post any suspected network downtimes. Twitter, RSS or anything.

»www.teksavvy.com/en/support/tools/tools

twitter: @TekSavvyNetwork

That's good but i think that's too hidden honestly.

Support -> tools -> tools. The average person will only spend 10 seconds a webpage.

IMO it should be smack in the frontpage or a link that easily be followed from there.

A twitter box for network status on the right hand-side would be a nice addition.

+1

Was this announced to customers in any way? This is the first time I've heard any network status announcements were available.

I see the Twitter account was only created earlier this month. I think separating tweets (or RSS) in some fashion would be helpful. I'm not all that interested in what happens outside of my area of service, and with services I don't subscribe to, other than to perhaps periodically check what TSI is dealing with.

xdrag

join:2005-02-18
North York, ON
said by OneWorld9:

+1

Was this announced to customers in any way? This is the first time I've heard any network status announcements were available.

I see the Twitter account was only created earlier this month. I think separating tweets (or RSS) in some fashion would be helpful. I'm not all that interested in what happens outside of my area of service, and with services I don't subscribe to, other than to perhaps periodically check what TSI is dealing with.

It always existed in some shape or form. Whether it would be announcements on DSLr or on their website. It was on the old website but once again, it was buried and not too many updates were fed through.

Given the growing consumer base though, i think it would be a good idea to give the system a bit of an overhaul. More frequent updates and the addition of issuing "code yellow" warnings for unofficial reports of network issues would be nice. Get a few TSI regulars on the board to join the monitoring group which would provide a steady stream of pings in different areas.

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
Earlier this morning I had an example of this system in operation.

Long story short:

Power went off.
Worried about missing tv golf = very annoyed.
Called Hydro. Auto-voice said "We know, 400 houses involved. ETC 3 hours."
I was happy.

Now as it turns out, it was on again in less than 60 minutes.

Really Happy.

Cheers,
Dave

OneWorld9

join:2010-12-09
East York, ON
said by UK_Dave:

Earlier this morning I had an example of this system in operation.

Long story short:

Power went off.
Worried about missing tv golf = very annoyed.
Called Hydro. Auto-voice said "We know, 400 houses involved. ETC 3 hours."
I was happy.

Now as it turns out, it was on again in less than 60 minutes.

Really Happy.

Cheers,
Dave

+1 ... announcements like this and others will a) show they know what's going on, and b) prevent a lot of wasted time troubleshooting, etc. Granted, power is a lot simpler to troubleshoot than your ISP connection, but TekSavvy needs to work towards that kind of knowledge of their customers' connections (at least from the network side).

geokilla

join:2010-10-04
North York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to OneWorld9
said by OneWorld9:

+1

Was this announced to customers in any way? This is the first time I've heard any network status announcements were available.

I see the Twitter account was only created earlier this month. I think separating tweets (or RSS) in some fashion would be helpful. I'm not all that interested in what happens outside of my area of service, and with services I don't subscribe to, other than to perhaps periodically check what TSI is dealing with.

Only people that know such a tool would be tech savvy people... And if the Internet is down, how do they expect us to get onto the Internet....

The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON

1 edit
reply to TSI Marc

Re: Welcome to Dystopia

said by TSI Marc:

Ironically, Rogers was down this week. We weren't.

Which, in and of itself, disproves the title of this thread. Also ironic.

That being said, count me among those who think an easily accessible network status page would be both interesting and valuable. Simple network status, perhaps a notice of any known Rogers outages potentially affecting TSI...even POI-level reports if those aren't considered proprietary (I remember seeing some POI graphs posted during the congestion issue). At the very least, having the latter available would preempt people thinking that the problem is overselling a given POI.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
We've been doing network outage notices for ages...

If you want to know what's going on, you can call in as we always update the IVR, you can see the web site, we always post here on dslr also... we're on twitter.. before the teksavvynetwork handle was created we did it on one of the other handles.

like... how much more can we possibly put it out there? It's almost like you guys are spoiled and you dont even know it anymore.

I think you guys are missing what's actually happening though. The average person will see all of this and will think that TekSavvy is not reliable. That I think caries more weight then having notices out there.

Furthermore, none of these things are on our network, so we can't say conclusively what's actually happening until we get positive feedback from the incumbents unless if it's on our own network. We always post those... so to spend a massive amount of time trying to fish for problems in the dark is really not efficient. It amounts to a best effort kind of thing on our side, which is what we do and have always done.

As for the link being prominently available on the front page. Yeah, sorry, not going to happen. Just add the link to your favs... the location has changed since we launched the new site but we've had that for years. We're doing the very same things as we've always done.

As it is internally, we're more worried about the message it's sending to the average person because there are so many notices. Just look here on dslr and twitter... there are multiple notices almost each and every week. We have so many users on Rogers and Bell's network that when they change anything anywhere, we have customers who are down. I can't speak to the reasons but the net effect is that we're spending all of our time dealing with outages. It's almost daily. Our phone system clogs up depending what the outage is and then we get accused of not having enough staff... it's a whole different sent of problems. Rogers and Bell are both doing a ton of upgrades. So here we are talking about this stuff... I dunno. Yet, another frustrating problem... I'm very anxious for upgrades to be done. The rate of change is so high on all fronts.

Not trying to sounds pessimistic, I'm sure I'm projecting here but these issues are not trivial and we are working very hard to stay on top of it all. This dialogue is important and I'm open to solid suggestions, its you guys really in the end who can help us flush out and spread the word about what's actually going on.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

xdrag

join:2005-02-18
North York, ON
reply to geokilla

Re: TekSavvy - glorified reseller, not ISP

said by geokilla:

Only people that know such a tool would be tech savvy people... And if the Internet is down, how do they expect us to get onto the Internet....

True but don't forget more and more people have smartphone and data plans. The day and age where our home is the sole connection to the internet world is shrinking.

That being said, an automated voice message would be great for those who have outages like the hydro example earlier. For slow-downs, it's a bit more complicated.