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booj

join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON
reply to Ian

Re: Canadian comes home from Guantanamo

said by Ian:

said by MaynardKrebs:

But that he was hauled halfway around the world, tortured, and effectively forced to confess under duress, that's a different matter entirely.

Or not.

"Following the Hearing, the military judge ruled that there was no credible evidence that Khadr had ever been tortured as alleged, and that his confession was gained after it came to light that Americans had discovered a videotape of Khadr and others making IED's."

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr···_note-80

Want to argue that the US judge ruled unfairly? Sure. I wasn't there. Can't say for sure. Nor, do I suspect, were you.

Link for the uninformed.

»www.emptywheel.net/2011/04/19/ho···w-trial/


Ian
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said by booj:

Link for the uninformed.

Because the "informed", get to be, by reading random left-wing blogs on the interwebs?

booj

join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON
The info you said we didn't have insight into is there. Attack the source if that's your prerogative.


Ian
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ON
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said by booj:

The info you said we didn't have insight into is there. Attack the source if that's your prerogative.

Baloney. It was an opinion piece about the credentials of "a" government witness. Not direct evidence into Khadr's alleged torture or coercion.

That is a qualitative difference apparent to most.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

booj

join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON
Baloney? Funny how people here who've followed his case all believe it was a show trial, but you gleefully fall back on the position that since we can't know the truth for sure (it's classified) we can't connect the dots for ourselves. Your willful ignorance isn't convincing anyone.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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reply to Ian
said by Ian:

said by booj:

Link for the uninformed.

Because the "informed", get to be, by reading random left-wing blogs on the interwebs?

A show trial is a show trial is a show trial.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show_trial

The term show trial is a pejorative description of a type of highly public trial in which there is a strong connotation that the judicial authorities have already determined the guilt of the defendant. The actual trial has as its only goal to present the accusation and the verdict to the public as an impressive example and as a warning. Show trials tend to be retributive rather than correctional justice. The term was first recorded in the 1930s.[1]

The Gitmo so-called 'trial' re-wrote 'facts' to support a party line, in the same tradition as the "Great Soviet Encyclopedia" ....
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Sovi···clopedia

Following the arrest and punishment of the infamous Lavrentiy Beria, the notorious head of the NKVD, in 1953 the encyclopedia—ostensibly in response to overwhelming public demand—mailed subscribers to the second edition a letter from the editor[11] instructing them to cut out and destroy the three-page article on Beria and paste in its place enclosed replacement pages expanding the adjacent articles on F. W. Bergholz (an 18th-century courtier), the Bering Sea, and Bishop Berkeley.[12] By April 1954, the Library of the University of California had received this “replacement.”[13] This was not the only case of political influence. Encyclopedia subscribers received missives to replace articles in the fashion of the Beria article frequently.[14] Content of others changed significantly, to reflect not the scientific knowledge but the current party line. An article affected in such a fashion was the one on Bukharin, whose evolution of descriptions went through several versions.[15]

And here I thought the US won the Cold War against those godless Commies. Looks like I was wrong.


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
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Halifax, NS
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And your links prove Omar Khadr is innocent of his crimes? I think NOT...


Ian
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ON
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reply to booj
said by booj:

Baloney? Funny how people here who've followed his case all believe it was a show trial, but you gleefully fall back on the position that since we can't know the truth for sure (it's classified) we can't connect the dots for ourselves. Your willful ignorance isn't convincing anyone.

Uh huh. I'd retort with a similar childish insult of my own....but not really my thing.... I wasn't there. Nor were you. Nor was the person quoted on the blog. That's not "willful", it just happens to be the case. I'll grant that it's possible that Khadr was tortured. Claiming such is straight out of the playbook of every detained terrorist in the history of.....terrorism. And no doubt some are.

What you might think of as "connecting the dots" is really just reading what you want to read, and making whatever connections you want to, based on your own bias and pre-conceived notions. And sorry to burst your bubble, but that's exactly as useful as it sounds like it is.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


Reality

@videotron.ca
I'm more afraid of Alberta beef killing the people of Canada than I am of this guy.


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
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Well stated. ARAR was giving 10 million by the govt vue. Dont you think they know the truth and yet they would rather just pay hush money. The fact is you cannot stomach that this guy is as legitimate a Canadian as you are, probably better by what I hear spewing out of your mouth and eloquent empathy he speaks. As for the Khadr as DKS said, child soldier at worst, scapegoat tortured detainee on the other end of the spectrum. Time for healing if its possible.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
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Halifax, NS
kudos:1
said by Anav:

Well stated. ARAR was giving 10 million by the govt vue. Dont you think they know the truth and yet they would rather just pay hush money. The fact is you cannot stomach that this guy is as legitimate a Canadian as you are, probably better by what I hear spewing out of your mouth and eloquent empathy he speaks. As for the Khadr as DKS said, child soldier at worst, scapegoat tortured detainee on the other end of the spectrum. Time for healing if its possible.

This thread is not about Maher Arar. It's about Omar Khadr... IF you wish to discuss the Maher Arar case, then kindly start a new thread...


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to Anav
said by Anav:

Time for healing if its possible.

Probably only could happen if they keep him away from his family. Let's not forget this is the family that brainwashed him and turned him over. His mother, at least one time in an interview, has stated that she would be happy if her sons died martyrs. Won't be much healing if he goes home to them.

NCRGuy

join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON
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reply to vue666
said by vue666:

said by Anav:

Well stated. ARAR was giving 10 million by the govt vue. Dont you think they know the truth and yet they would rather just pay hush money. The fact is you cannot stomach that this guy is as legitimate a Canadian as you are, probably better by what I hear spewing out of your mouth and eloquent empathy he speaks. As for the Khadr as DKS said, child soldier at worst, scapegoat tortured detainee on the other end of the spectrum. Time for healing if its possible.

This thread is not about Maher Arar. It's about Omar Khadr... IF you wish to discuss the Maher Arar case, then kindly start a new thread...

Congratulations on being appointed a mod. Arar is relevant.


Anav
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said by NCRGuy:

said by vue666:

said by Anav:

Well stated. ARAR was giving 10 million by the govt vue. Dont you think they know the truth and yet they would rather just pay hush money. The fact is you cannot stomach that this guy is as legitimate a Canadian as you are, probably better by what I hear spewing out of your mouth and eloquent empathy he speaks. As for the Khadr as DKS said, child soldier at worst, scapegoat tortured detainee on the other end of the spectrum. Time for healing if its possible.

This thread is not about Maher Arar. It's about Omar Khadr... IF you wish to discuss the Maher Arar case, then kindly start a new thread...

Congratulations on being appointed a mod. Arar is relevant.

Hey take it easy on Vue, hes having problems connecting the dots these days. I cannot understand the seemingly blind hatred and passion against Khadr. What did he ever do to Canada or Canadians (not that justifies any crime), whereas where is that same hatred and passion for the Quebec mob that have disappeared many people and ripping off Canadians for decades. It just seems really unbalanced. Oh wait, the US has proof while the mob have been defamed and setup..(framed).
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment


Kardinal
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2 edits
reply to vue666
said by vue666:

This thread is not about Maher Arar. It's about Omar Khadr... IF you wish to discuss the Maher Arar case, then kindly start a new thread...

Ahem......it's not about Korea, charging Khadr's mother or a non-existant charge of treason (which you have mentioned at least 4 times), so pointing your finger at others and yelling "OFF TOPIC!!" is amusing.

said by Anav:

Hey take it easy on Vue, hes having problems connecting the dots these days.

Hey, it's impressive that an attempt to connect the dots is being made, given that it's a Rorschach test that is being administered.

[edit = fixed spelling of proper name]
[2nd edit = I swear I wasn't drinking last night....just can't spell]
--
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars

- Peart / Lifeson / Lee
Join Team Helix


Anav
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1 edit
I believe thats Rorschach but my German is rusty. Mein namma ist Llama!!

(edit, try another edit there Kardinal, not rorscharch lol)


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
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Just because Arar was awarded $10 million does not mean Khadr will be award any compensation. The last I heard he was going to sue the Federal Government...

And belonging to a terrorist organization like Al Qaeda and engaging in terrorists activities is a crime...


Anav
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In Canada, kidnapping, torture and unlawful detainment for years at a time are crimes. Then again, I think that multiple tasering a defenceless person in an airport and kneeling on their windpipe until a person is dead is also a crime. Well maybe we dont follow the geneva convention anymore but someone elses Corrupted constitution. In any case I will concur that there are many shades of grey here.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
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said by Anav:

In Canada, kidnapping, torture and unlawful detainment for years at a time are crimes.

OK. Which Canadian do you want to see charged for doing so?


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
said by Ian:

said by Anav:

In Canada, kidnapping, torture and unlawful detainment for years at a time are crimes.

OK. Which Canadian do you want to see charged for doing so?

If I knew any and if I stated their names I fear I would end up in a Turkish refugee camp half dead LOL. I was simply pointing out that some people think that Khadr was possibly not guilty but neither here nor there, how he has been treated is definitely criminal.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to Kardinal
said by Kardinal:

said by vue666:

This thread is not about Maher Arar. It's about Omar Khadr... IF you wish to discuss the Maher Arar case, then kindly start a new thread...

Ahem......it's not about Korea, charging Khadr's mother or a non-existant charge of treason (which you have mentioned at least 4 times), so pointing your finger at others and yelling "OFF TOPIC!!" is amusing.

said by Anav:

Hey take it easy on Vue, hes having problems connecting the dots these days.

Hey, it's impressive that an attempt to connect the dots is being made, given that it's a Rorscharch test that is being administered.

[edit = fixed spelling of proper name]

You and others allege Khadr was tortured/waterboarded while being held in Guantanamo Bay detention camp. Yet where is your evidence that crime was commited? Who was charged with torturing Khadr?

You and others claim Omar's confession of guilt was obtained through coercion. Where is your proof?

YET you demand I can not make a similar charge of treason against him or his family... I may have claimed treason 4 times BUT how many times has the use of torture on Khadr been mentioned?

Now post your evidence of torture and not someone's opinion torture may have been used...

Kindly lookup the definition of treason and then tell me the actions of Omar and his Khadr family does not apply...

I call the kettle black...

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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1 recommendation

reply to Anav
said by Anav:

Hey take it easy on Vue, hes having problems connecting the dots these days.

He's suffering the lingering after-effects of Marcia withdrawal
»I hate it... I hate watching CTV News & Marcia's not on.....

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
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reply to Ian
said by Ian:

said by booj:

Link for the uninformed.

Because the "informed", get to be, by reading random left-wing blogs on the interwebs?

So how about something from an arguably right-wing source..... the US Naval War College?

»www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/181c···e-Future

Read from middle of Page 85 (in the original publication) to the top of page 86. [sorry, text is not selectable otherwise I'd have posted it here]

Bottom line is that there is not a lot of clarity in the legality of much of what was done in Afghanistan - by all parties.


Ian
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said by MaynardKrebs:

Bottom line is that there is not a lot of clarity in the legality of much of what was done in Afghanistan - by all parties.

And I don't disagree. Whether Omar Khadr was tortured at all, or his confession coerced, were the questions I was addressing. And your new link says nothing about either question.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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kudos:4
said by Ian:

said by MaynardKrebs:

Bottom line is that there is not a lot of clarity in the legality of much of what was done in Afghanistan - by all parties.

And I don't disagree. Whether Omar Khadr was tortured at all, or his confession coerced, were the questions I was addressing. And your new link says nothing about either question.

Well how about these about Guantanamo's 'Frequent Flyer' program?

»www.aclu.org/blog/national-secur···-program
Mr. Jawad is an Afghan who was a minor when he was captured in December 2002 after allegedly throwing a grenade that injured two U.S. soldiers and an Afghan interpreter. {sound familiar?} Mr. Jawad arrived at Guantánamo in January 2003 and despite his status as a minor, the fact that the U.S. government has never made any connection between Mr. Jawad and either al Qaeda or the Taliban, and a statement by the former Commanding General of Joint Task Force-Guantánamo, Maj. Gen. Jay W. Hood (who stopped the official frequent flyer program), that Mr. Jawad was of no intelligence value, Mr. Jawad remains at Guantánamo and has been subject to torture, including the frequent flyer program.

»humanrights.ucdavis.edu/projects···-charges
"Mohammed Jawad, who has been in Guantánamo for five years since he was 16 or 17 years old, was subjected to the "frequent flyer program" in May 2004. According to defense lawyer Air Force Major Dave Frakt, based on a review of DIMS (Detainee Information Management Systems - a daily log kept of detainees at Guantánamo), which was recently provided by the prosecution to the defense, during a two-week period, Jawad was woken up from him cell and moved to different cells 112 times every 2 hours 55 minutes. Jawad had been interrogated 21 times prior to being subjected to the frequent flyer program and was not interrogated during the two-week period. He was again interrogated in September 2004.

(Notably, in the Omar Khadr case, another teen held at Guantánamo, the prosecution has resisted providing DIMS to the defense prompting military commission Judge Peter Brownback to threaten an abatement of the proceedings unless DIMS was produced to the defense by May 22).
{Gee, what could be so damning in the DIMS report that the information isn't handed over to the defense?? Could it be that Khadr refused to eat his ice cream & birthday cake? /sarcasm }

»www.sfgate.com/news/article/Wide···0577.php
U.S. military investigators deemed the program abusive but did not describe the extent of its use.

There are hundreds more citations of these and other instances of abuse & torture - at Bagram, at Guantanamo, and other 'black' sites.
I guess you'll just dismiss them all (and those of military defense lawyers too) as just the ravings of the pinko left - as you previously stated.


Ian
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said by MaynardKrebs:

There are hundreds more citations of these and other instances of abuse & torture - at Bagram, at Guantanamo, and other 'black' sites.
I guess you'll just dismiss them all (and those of military defense lawyers too) as just the ravings of the pinko left - as you previously stated.

What you listed were allegations. And specifically, not a one of them about Khadr. And when and where did I state that the allegations were the ravings of the "pinko left"?

Actually, what I said was, I don't know if Khadr were tortured. I truly don't. And neither do you. And....call me a monster...but I'm not sure I'd be that upset with it if it were a) true.... and b) yielded valuable intelligence against other Al Qaeda terrorists like Omar Khadr. And it might well have, given the Khadr family's long connections to other terrorists. And that's from someone generally against torture.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong