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said by CXM_Splicer:Of course. However replacing employees comes at a cost...skilled labor more so.
ANYONE is replaceable, regardless of skill level
said by CXM_Splicer:Labor has value. The more valuable a person is, the lesser your belief is a possibility.
they consider you a commodity because it is more profitable for them and you can't change that... all you can do is accept it and run with it.
said by CXM_Splicer:I don't have a problem with this so long as workers take the bad with the good. When the economy tanks and business is slow, are employees going to be willing to take a hit just as much as they demand a share of the profits during the good times? Or will the employers be expected to bear the responsibility during the bad times?
I would say that workers rightly believe that they should be rewarded for the profits they generate for the company.
said by CXM_Splicer:In general principle, I agree.
The REAL trickle-down economics is: Companies make more money... they pay their employees more money... the employees spend that money... the economy gets better.
said by CXM_Splicer:Not completely. Companies make money both on and offshore. The offshore money won't be brought home because of the insane tax liability that will be realized. That money does our country no good, yet it is seen by the laypeople as huge surpluses of cash that the company is sitting on, not paying employees, creating jobs, etc. This doesn't apply to all company profits and cash hoards, but it is a significant amount. I agree with the logic that employees can be squeezed more now than what was possible during the last couple of decades with the current level of unemployment aiding in the squeezing. The health of the economy is not strictly dependent upon employee pay and our level of consumption. It is important, but not the only factor.
Instead whats happening is: Companies make more money... they put it offshore in tax havens... employees get paid less using high unemployment as leverage... economy gets worse. Do you disagree with this?
CXM_SplicerLooking at the bigger picturePremium
I agree that it is harder to replace workers in proportion to their skill level but there is simply no point along that line where a company will go from treating them like a commodity to a business partner. If there was a person seen as that valuable... they would be promoted and no longer be a worker. Actually, Seidenberg was originally a splicer at Verizon before working his way up to CEO. Corporations (Verizon at least) don't operate like that anymore, they aren't interested in promoting replaceable commodities.
I also think we have seen many examples of employees willingly making concessions for the survival of the company and agree that this is something that labor, executives, and shareholders all need to do... where appropriate. The sad fact is that most of these companies are not in financial hardship, they are making record profits and still demanding concessions from the workers. This is making an already imbalanced situation worse.
I disagree that the tax rate is 'insane' to bring the money back. They considerany taxes insane and many companies end up with refunds rather than contributing anything from their domestic profits... but then, you know all this. The point I was making is that as long as this course of action continues, the economy will continue a downward trend. True it is not the only factor in the economy but, judging from the effects we can see happening, it is a major one.
I don't foresee business suddenly deciding to do what's best for the economy and reversing this behavior. Any downward trend will level off naturally at some point but the real question is WHERE is that point. If it is too low, government will step in with regulation like the New Deal (although I don't see that happening within the next four years no matter which side the coin lands on). For it to happen naturally, business must start to reach unacceptable levels of productivity... in other words "You get what you pay for". The sooner the American worker realizes this, the better off we will be.
Edited for a ton of spelling errors
said by CXM_Splicer:Commodity may be a bit strong of a term, but I agree, most businesses probably aren't going to elevate most of their employees to the status of "business partner".
I agree that it is harder to replace workers in proportion to their skill level but there is simply no point along that line where a company will go from treating them like a commodity to a business partner.
said by CXM_Splicer:Truly valuable people are eventually promoted or they take their value elsewhere. Should it not be the aspirations of valuable people to continue bettering themselves? Isn't that what the "American Dream" is all about?
If there was a person seen as that valuable... they would be promoted and no longer be a worker.
said by CXM_Splicer:Supervisors and managers have to come from somewhere. They aren't all going to be 22 year old (M)BA fresh out of college.
Corporations (Verizon at least) don't operate like that anymore, they aren't interested in promoting replaceable commodities.
said by CXM_Splicer:I do. I'm sure you've read my posts suggesting that corporations shouldn't pay income taxes, but that's a different discussion. Regarding bringing the money home that's sitting overseas, as a business, would you leave money that you earned elsewhere (and has already been taxed) overseas to conduct overseas business operations, or would you bring it home and pay up to 40% on the money to tax authorities?
I disagree that the tax rate is 'insane' to bring the money back. They considerany taxes insane and many companies end up with refunds rather than contributing anything from their domestic profits... but then, you know all this.
said by CXM_Splicer:Likely not unless it advances the business' self interests.
I don't foresee business suddenly deciding to do what's best for the economy and reversing this behavior.
CXM_SplicerLooking at the bigger picturePremium
Yes, it is a strong term but it is not mine. I took it from a discussion with skeechan who insists that labor should be viewed as a commodity. I do agree that corporate America (well, Wall St specifically) sees labor in that light but IMO that is part of the problem... not the way it should be.
Promotions at Verizon used to be from the field but, ironically, it very often ended up being people that didn't have sufficient skills to be comfortable in the field. 'Truly Valuable' is of course subjective but I think you would agree that skilled workers are not worthless simply because they are not promoted to higher levels. The fact (at Verizon at least) is that no one aspires to enter management anymore because they are treated so poorly... I heard there was another round of management layoffs just announced. I don't even know if the path to 'promotion' still exists for us workers.
I am sure you know, or could guess, that my opinion on corporate taxation is completely opposite of yours... I think we should return to pre-Regan tax rates for corporations and the upper class. Large corporations and their highly successful owners, have profited nicely from our system and it is only right that they should help maintain it. If a company has legitimate operations overseas and wants to keep profits where they were made to pay for operations... that is understandable. When they set up fictitious operations overseas and show profits in those entities because they share your view that they should not have to pay income tax then I think we have a major problem. Someone can set up theirr own such company here:
Illegal, you say? Well with a few layers of removal and the secrecy of the offshore banks, you can easily avoid detection or prosecution.
More on topic though, what is your opinion on the declining state of labor in the country? As unemployment (and the population) increases and business has even more leverage to lower salaries, where to you see that trend taking us? Or, even more important then how you or I see it, is this something that business should consider past their own short term interests?