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Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to Insight6

Re: [iPhone] Bigger Fail Than Maps ...

Uuuuhhhhh if you had any "insight" you'd realize that Ligntning is not "as simple as a cable". It is a long-term technology that will allow for significant future expandability using a common interface by allowing the 9 connection pins to be dynamically reconfigured based on what the chip in the Lightning cable tells the phone it is supposed to do.
I mean in theory it could do USB2.0, USB3.0, FW, digital video, act as a USB controller for USB peripherals, etc. -- MicroUSB cannot do all of that without requiring a lot of proprietary stuff on its own.
--
Check out my site: »web.mac.com/jwsmiths

Play Mafia!: »Pub Games



Insight6

join:2012-08-25

said by Count Zero:

Uuuuhhhhh if you had any "insight" you'd realize that Ligntning is not "as simple as a cable". It is a long-term technology that will allow for significant future expandability using a common interface by allowing the 9 connection pins to be dynamically reconfigured based on what the chip in the Lightning cable tells the phone it is supposed to do.
I mean in theory it could do USB2.0, USB3.0, FW, digital video, act as a USB controller for USB peripherals, etc. -- MicroUSB cannot do all of that without requiring a lot of proprietary stuff on its own.

Which has what to do with availability, or logistics, or planning, or even marketing for that matter?


fcisler
Premium
join:2004-06-14
Riverhead, NY
reply to Count Zero

said by Count Zero:

Uuuuhhhhh if you had any "insight" you'd realize that Ligntning is not "as simple as a cable". It is a long-term technology that will allow for significant future expandability using a common interface by allowing the 9 connection pins to be dynamically reconfigured based on what the chip in the Lightning cable tells the phone it is supposed to do.
I mean in theory it could do USB2.0, USB3.0, FW, digital video, act as a USB controller for USB peripherals, etc. -- MicroUSB cannot do all of that without requiring a lot of proprietary stuff on its own.

Firewire: Apple removing Firewire from the MacBook line is a sign to me that they are moving away from the technology. I seriously doubt they would ever do firewire.

Digital Video: You posted a link, so I'm SURE you understand MHL. I guess you could define "a lot of proprietary stuff" as a MHL adapter - but then again the apple device (lightning to HDMI) will be just as proprietary. Also: the SGS III is the only one with a "modified" MHL and there are workarounds.

Act as a USB controller: Really? USB On-The-Go.

USB 3: USB 3 Micro has yet to be a defined standard. It could use the same form factor for all we know. Also - USB 3 requires 9 pins and Lightning MIGHT support USB 3. Samsung has shown that MicroUSB can accomodate up to 11 pins in a regular MicroUSB connector - and still remain backwards compatible with existing connectors.

Everything you listed is available on MicroUSB. All require some sort of "proprietary stuff" - as do the lightning adapters.

You've failed to mention ANY possible "benefit" of the Lightning connector. The ability to insert it in either direction is about it.

The decision to use lightning vs MicroUSB is 100% about money and control. That is it. Read here for more. If you believe it was for any other reason you are sorely mistaken.


Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to Insight6

Well I do agree it would have been nice if Apple would have had a few device manufacturers have some stuff available at launch - especially a dock for my bedside and my desks.

Logistics and availability of the Apple stuff are due to less than optimal yields on the parts as previously noted online at MacRumors/Appleinsider.



Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to fcisler

I wasn't suggesting/hoping Apple would make a FW-Lightning cable but I was pointing out that it was a technical possibility.

USB on the go could be very useful. Hooking up printers, cameras, etc. would all be possible.

Of course money plays a huge role - but this level of control also ensures Apple can maintain quality in the 3rd party accessories available.

I think you Android people are just upset that no one makes really high end accessories just for your devices and with Lightning that trend will continue
--
Check out my site: »web.mac.com/jwsmiths

Play Mafia!: »Pub Games


Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network

Because we want to pay more for the word "Lightning"? But you have a point there. Why pay $1.25 shipped for a microUSB cable when I can pay $25 for something called Lightning!

It just somehow rolls off the tongue so well. It reminds me of this commercial.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID6kSg4oeLU


Except, imagine the guy holding a Lightning cable and saying the word Lightning over and over again. It's the Kool-Aidiest!
--
I'm hoping for a change. Vote Romney/Ryan 2012.


Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC

1 edit

Well if you enjoy plugging a $1.25 shipped MicroUSB cable into a piece of shit phone that's fine.

I'll buy a few lightning cables now and will use them for the next 5-10 years since Tim Cook has publicly stated that Lightning will be a long-term interface for Apple going forwards.

And the fact remains: At least people can buy "Made for iPhone" devices unlike any android phone I've ever seen.

You see anything like this for ANY droid out there? »www.bose.com/controller?url=/sho···ndex.jsp


Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network

10 years - 10 microUSB cales - $12.50
10 years - 1 Lightning cable - $25

But, if I understand correctly, you enjoy plugging cables into phones. For you then, Lightning is the way to go. Welcome to the distortion field!
--
I'm hoping for a change. Vote Romney/Ryan 2012.



Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC

Actuallly since the iPhone comes with 1 - and every future iPad/iPhone that I buy will come with one too I probably won't have to spend any additional for a single other Lightning cable for the next 10yrs anyways as I've already bought a few extras.

But I guess you just like using devices without any 3rd party accessories available


EdmundGerber

join:2010-01-04
kudos:1
reply to Count Zero

said by Count Zero:

Well if you enjoy plugging a $1.25 shipped MicroUSB cable into a piece of shit phone that's fine.

I'll buy a few lightning cables now and will use them for the next 5-10 years since Tim Cook has publicly stated that Lightning will be a long-term interface for Apple going forwards.

And the fact remains: At least people can buy "Made for iPhone" devices unlike any android phone I've ever seen.

You see anything like this for ANY droid out there? »www.bose.com/controller?url=/sho···ndex.jsp

Tim Cook said? He's not long for apple, so his decrees mean nothing.

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network
reply to Count Zero

It's Bluetooth as well, and includes a non iStuff dock. Any BT device will work with the Bose system. Probably not the best example . . .

Well capitalized device manufacturers are smart. They aren't going to ace out a 4x bigger market share system of devices.

--
I'm hoping for a change. Vote Romney/Ryan 2012.


Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to EdmundGerber

Thank goodness people with your lack of insight don't run Apple.



Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to Badonkadonk

Bluetooth compresses audio. What a waste. The non-stuff dock also hobbles the device and the controls. It's an afterthought at best.



BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to Count Zero

It's 9 pins... 2 power and 2 data on either side of a ground pin, with only a data pair, power pair, and ground (e.g. the 5 USB2 pins) used at any given moment; 2 pairs of power and data pins, with the ground pin in the center, is what allows it to be plugged in either way...

It's a USB2 connector for people too dense to plug it in right.



BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to Count Zero

said by Count Zero:

You see anything like this for ANY droid out there? »www.bose.com/controller?url=/sho···ndex.jsp

Yes. That, actually. Being bluetooth, I don't even need to dock my Android phone to use it.


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to Count Zero

said by Count Zero:

Bluetooth compresses audio. What a waste. The non-stuff dock also hobbles the device and the controls. It's an afterthought at best.

AAC (m4a, like you buy on iTunes) and MP3 compress audio, so you're getting that from your iDevice anyway. What's your point?

Dodge
Premium
join:2002-11-27
reply to Count Zero

said by Count Zero:

You see anything like this for ANY droid out there? »www.bose.com/controller?url=/sho···ndex.jsp

Yes that exact device you've just linked:
---------- FROM BOSE FAQ PAGE: ----------------
How do I switch between playing my iPod® or iPhone® and playing music from a Bluetooth device?
The SoundDock 10 Bluetooth system comes with two docking elements, a universal dock adapter for your iPod/iPhone and Bluetooth adapter. Simply unplug the system and remove the universal adapter from the dock, then insert the Bluetooth dock (it snaps securely into place). When you plug the system in again, the Bluetooth light will blink to indicate the system is in discoverable mode. Turn on the Bluetooth feature in your music phone (or other device) and select "Bose SoundDock 10" from the list of found devices.

Will the Bluetooth dock work with any Bluetooth phone?
Any Bluetooth phone purchased after January 2007 is likely to work. Phones purchased before that date may also work. To be sure, simply bring your phone to a Bose® store and try it out.

---------------------------------
Hmm, ANY Bluetooth phone you say? After Jan 2007 you say? Where can I possibly find one of those? Oh yeah, that's right, pretty much any smart phone and probably half of regular phones out there!

Ah, but the iPhone can sit in it docked, and an Android phone will have to be on a shelf next to it (or pretty much anywhere in the room). Which would be a great point if it wasn't for ..... wait for it...... The all new and improved lightning connector. That's right, a connector so advanced, it makes all your $600 docks obsolete!

But, but I can buy a converter (and for only $29.99 I might add), so everything will work again. Well yes, you can, however it is very unlikely that a phone with a converter will fit in the dock, so it will have to be a cable then, in which case it's the same functionality as you would get with Bluetooth, only tethered. So you might as well just turn to the Bluetooth functionality even for iPhone and render the whole "Made for Apple" argument pointless. Unless the idea is to change the slogan to "Made for Apple, just not the new ones"


Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to BronsCon

Fail.



Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to BronsCon

And you hear your audio in recompressed 128kbps quality then. What a waste of money.



Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to BronsCon

Try again. I have over 10,000 songs in Apple Lossless in my library and only another 6,000 256kbps AAC songs. So I hear can actually hear CD quality music.



Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC
reply to Dodge

1) If you use bluetooth you just paid $500 to listen to music that's re-compressed to 128kbps.

2) A new version for lightning will be coming - Apple stated that some of the higher end audio companies were given advance specs on Lightning and are redesigning their stuff now.


Dodge
Premium
join:2002-11-27

said by Count Zero:

1) If you use bluetooth you just paid $500 to listen to music that's re-compressed to 128kbps.

Yeah because my entire music collection is losless audio and I can tell a difference between 128, 256, vbr, losless or whatever encoding was used. /sarcasm. Most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference, especially considering how much re-processing Bose systems do on their end.

said by Count Zero:

2) A new version for lightning will be coming - Apple stated that some of the higher end audio companies were given advance specs on Lightning and are redesigning their stuff now.

So another $600 because Apple decided to re-invent a usb cable.


Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC

Well my living room stereo was around $3,000 and yes there is a noticeable difference. My living room setup is not a Bose - in fact the only Bose stuff I use are my OE2i headphones.

No, I would just buy the adapter - but it's still better than Bluetooth or a droid hooked up to it.



BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
reply to Count Zero

Really? 128kbps? That's it? You should probably do some research.



skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Clear Wireless
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FiOS

Yeah really. While A2DP CAN support 320kbps in HQ, few devices use that by default. Additionally that kind of bit rate needs 20MHz in the 2.4GHz band (crowded space) and if the audio isn't already a SBC compatible payload like MP4 audio it's transcoded before being sent.

BT audio isn't that bitchen.



BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA

320kbps doesn't need 20MHz... you can push a hair more than 56mbps in the 2.4Ghz spectrum (it's called 802.11g and you're probably using it right now)



skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Clear Wireless
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit

If bluetooth audio was using the 802.11 working group standards that would interest me.

BT audio is it's own profile within just 1 part of the 802.15 (WPAN) standard and it is well fermented at this point. It is horribly slow and not meant to provide high quality audio. It is merely a solution for short range wireless 2ch audio.



BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

1 edit

You missed my point. Bluetooth does not use a full 20MHz channel to pull off a 320kbps transfer with no room to spare.

EDIT: For the uninitiated, there are 79 Bluetooth channels, each 1MHz wide. Bluetooth 2.0 and 2.1+EDR are 3.0mbps over a single 1MHz channel, with 2.1mbps available to the application (in this case, streaming your 320kbps stream). Bluetooth 3.0+HS (supported by any phone currently on the market in the iPhone 5's price range, and many cheaper models) can use a Bluetooth channel to negotiate an 802.11 connection, then use that for up to 24mbps.

It's on Wikipedia if you don't want to trawl through whitepapers for the info. It's in the whitepapers, if you don't trust Wikipedia.



Count Zero
Obama-Biden 2012
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Winston Salem, NC

And show one consumer audio device that uses that... NONE.



skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Clear Wireless
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FiOS
reply to BronsCon

If the headsets used WiFi or high profile PAN for their connectivity, great, but they use A2DP (at least all the ones I use) and it's a spectrum hog, 768kbps of a 1-3Mb BT2.1 capacity of which you can use 320kbps for actual audio transport as part of the standard; I'm assuming to permit substantial overhead for retransmits etc.

So while THEORETICALLY you could use that channel space to get decent audio, in practice you don't and the devices set default bit rates in the crapper which is why I stated you can improve quality by changing those default settings in some cases but even then, you aren't going to get good quality from 'em. In practice with the transcoding they'll have 128kbps quality. Not unlistenable but far from great.

Where are you getting 3Mb per channel from BT? BT 2.1 is 3Mb TOTAL from what I've read with 3.0 pushing 24Mb total as you describe.