vue666 (banned)Let's make Canchat better!!!
join:2007-12-07
1 recommendation |
vue666 (banned)
Member
2012-Oct-29 11:20 am
HMS Bounty (replica) has sunk....Originally built in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia for the 1962 remake of Mutiny on the Bounty staring Marlon Brando & Trevor Howard has sunk off the coast of North Carolina.... Two, possibly three crew members are missing.... » www.news957.com/radio/ne ··· -missing» www.theglobeandmail.com/ ··· 4719018/ |
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yabos
join:2003-02-16
London, ON |
yabos
Member
2012-Oct-29 11:53 am
Um, it's not like this hurricane is a surprise. Why were they out on the water? Yes they were 160 miles from the center of the hurricane but that seems quite dumb to be out there right now. |
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 HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON |
HiVolt
Premium Member
2012-Oct-29 12:07 pm
said by yabos:Um, it's not like this hurricane is a surprise. Why were they out on the water? Yes they were 160 miles from the center of the hurricane but that seems quite dumb to be out there right now.
Thats exactly what I'm wondering... Stupidity at its finest, especially in a freakin full blown sailing ship. |
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 eksterHi there
Premium Member
join:2010-07-16
Sainte-Anne-De-Bellevue, QC |
ekster
Premium Member
2012-Oct-29 1:05 pm
» ca.news.yahoo.com/hurric ··· 868.htmlClaudia McCann, whose husband is the captain of the Bounty, said she hadn't slept since she received word the ship was taking on water.
She said her husband, Captain Robin Walbridge, was trying to get around Hurricane Sandy en route to Florida.
"He was just trying to avoid it, skirt it. Skirt through it, skirt around it," McCann said Monday.
"I'm sure he's devastated. Absolutely devastated. But the crew comes first and you have to save the crew." No idea what were they thinking in trying to get around a storm of that size. Maybe didn't want to park it in Halifax in case the waters get rough and the ship sinks in harbour? |
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 FaxCap
join:2002-05-25
Surrey, BC |
FaxCap
Member
2012-Oct-29 1:08 pm
said by ekster:Claudia McCann, whose husband is the captain of the Bounty, said she hadn't slept since she received word the ship was taking on water.
She said her husband, Captain Robin Walbridge, was trying to get around Hurricane Sandy en route to Florida.
"He was just trying to avoid it, skirt it. Skirt through it, skirt around it," McCann said Monday.
"I'm sure he's devastated. Absolutely devastated. But the crew comes first and you have to save the crew." Trying to out run or "get around" a hurricane in a sailing vessel??????? I would think twice about that in a freakin' battleship! FaxCap |
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to vue666
Sunk? Abandoned, yes. It seems the Canadian press is taking some liberties. |
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 donoreo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON |
donoreo
Premium Member
2012-Oct-29 1:16 pm
said by Thingamajig:Sunk? Abandoned, yes. It seems the Canadian press is taking some liberties.
It is being reported everywhere that it sunk. |
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"As six-metre waves and ferocious gales battered the decks of the 180-foot, three-masted ship - knocking out its power - 16 terrified crew-members clambered into life boats to watch their floating home shrink unmanned into the darkness." » www.dailymail.co.uk/news ··· Ai4gLUXvNo one watched it sink. |
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vue666 (banned)Let's make Canchat better!!!
join:2007-12-07 |
vue666 (banned)
Member
2012-Oct-29 1:35 pm
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to Thingamajig
"The ship has sunk, according to the Coast Guard at 8:45 a.m. Monday." |
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Tig
join:2006-06-29
Carrying Place, ON
1 recommendation |
to vue666
14 of the 16 crew were rescued. One (Claudene Christian) found, but she could not be revived. Captain (Robin Walbridge) is still missing.
The ship was at sea because that's where ships are safest. It's common practice to leave harbour in the face of a storm rather than be battered against the pier. In this case, the Bounty lost power and thus the ability to pump the bilge and fight the storm. |
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vue666 (banned)Let's make Canchat better!!!
join:2007-12-07 |
vue666 (banned)
Member
2012-Oct-30 9:58 am
said by Tig:14 of the 16 crew were rescued. One (Claudene Christian) found, but she could not be revived. Captain (Robin Walbridge) is still missing.
The ship was at sea because that's where ships are safest. It's common practice to leave harbour in the face of a storm rather than be battered against the pier. In this case, the Bounty lost power and thus the ability to pump the bilge and fight the storm.
Claudene Christian is a distant relative of the real Fletcher Christian... quote:
»blog.eogn.com/eastmans_o ··· ant.html
Claudene Christian was the great-great-great-great-great-granddaughter of Fletcher Christian
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to Tig
said by Tig:14 of the 16 crew were rescued. One (Claudene Christian) found, but she could not be revived. Captain (Robin Walbridge) is still missing.
The ship was at sea because that's where ships are safest. It's common practice to leave harbour in the face of a storm rather than be battered against the pier. In this case, the Bounty lost power and thus the ability to pump the bilge and fight the storm.
What are you doing trying to input knowledge and sense into a CanChat living room quarterback fest? |
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Sukunai
Premium Member
join:2008-05-07 |
to vue666
The Captain was a god damned idiot plain and simple.
Consider this quote concerning the 3rd fleet during WW2 in the Pacific.
"The inexorable Law of Storms -- the Bible of all seamen since the days of astrolabe and sail -- was neglected, and the US Third Fleet, proud in its might, paid the penalty -- more men lost, more ships sunk and damaged than in many of the engagements of the Pacific war."
I mean come on, the captain of the Bounty thinks he can do in a damned sailing ship that which was enough to kick the ass of a modern military fleet that had just tasted victory only recently.
The guy might not be guilty of any real law, but he sure is criminally stupid. |
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MaynardKrebsWe did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17 |
to vue666
Running downwind | 
Close-hauled |
Sailing ships used to deal with storms like this all the time. They didn't always win though. Saw video taken from the rescue chopper showing the Bounty with its deck awash. If it's still that way this morning the only way it could be saved is if somebody got a 10,000+ gallon/minute pump on board and the boat was bobbing so that the gunwales were above the water for 30 seconds at a time (enough time to pump out about 50,000 lbs.) and no openings below that level were open to the sea. Otherwise it's sunk. I've been out in 30 foot waves on a 55' sailboat....gets pretty scary at times, especially at night. That said, I'd LOVE to be on a Volvo Open 70 doing a trans-Atlantic run @ 30+ knots top speed. |
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 digitalfuturSees More Than Shown
Premium Member
join:2000-07-15
GTA
1 edit |
to vue666
Assuming the captain checked the weather charts, he may have underestimated the power of this Cat 1 hurricane. Because it never made significant landfall until the end, the wind drove the sea for days on end, building up huge waves, far larger than usual for this category of storm. |
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to Sukunai
said by Sukunai:The Captain was a god damned idiot plain and simple.
Consider this quote concerning the 3rd fleet during WW2 in the Pacific.
"The inexorable Law of Storms -- the Bible of all seamen since the days of astrolabe and sail -- was neglected, and the US Third Fleet, proud in its might, paid the penalty -- more men lost, more ships sunk and damaged than in many of the engagements of the Pacific war."
I mean come on, the captain of the Bounty thinks he can do in a damned sailing ship that which was enough to kick the ass of a modern military fleet that had just tasted victory only recently.
The guy might not be guilty of any real law, but he sure is criminally stupid.
Speaking of stupid, can you quote where in The Sailor's Horn-Book for the Law of Storms, written by Henry Piddington in 1848, it's recommended that ships be docked in the middle of a hurricane? The book actually explains the wind behaviour during a cyclone/hurricane and makes recommendation on how to best navigate through and around it. Do you have ANY evidence that the Captain of the Bounty II didn't follow it's recommendations? Here's a reference to help you quote the appropriate passages you accuse the Captain not to have followed: » books.google.ca/books?id ··· &f=false |
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Sukunai
Premium Member
join:2008-05-07 |
to vue666
Sorry Gimli, I don't do google tag, the link was a matter of convenience, the knowledge of the event comes from my rather large not on google library and concerns the event mentioned from 1944 which I happen to be an expert on.
The point is, the Bounty shouldn't have been out to sea. The captain should have had enough experience to know that. He shouldn't even need to have read the book to begin with. |
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NCRGuy
join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON |
NCRGuy
Member
2012-Oct-30 3:50 pm
said by Sukunai:Sorry Gimli, I don't do google tag, the link was a matter of convenience, the knowledge of the event comes from my rather large not on google library and concerns the event mentioned from 1944 which I happen to be an expert on.
The point is, the Bounty shouldn't have been out to sea. The captain should have had enough experience to know that. He shouldn't even need to have read the book to begin with.
So you're not prepared to back up your comments with anything other than deflection to an irrelevant event you are a self-proclaimed expert on. Gotcha. |
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 dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
come on now...i'm no sea captain, and i can tell you that sailing a ship through the middle of a hurricane was a stupid idea...period. |
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 elwoodbluesElwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in |
said by dirtyjeffer0:come on now...i'm no sea captain, and i can tell you that sailing a ship through the middle of a hurricane was a stupid idea...period.
Oh I see, the Thrill is gone....  |
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 A Lurkerthat's Ms Lurker btw
Premium Member
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
1 edit |
to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:come on now...i'm no sea captain, and i can tell you that sailing a ship through the middle of a hurricane was a stupid idea...period. I don't think they were sailing through it. They were trying to skirt around it (and end up south of it). Likely the decision was made because they felt the boat wasn't safe in port. If the electrical hadn't failed the story might be quite different. I would suspect it wasn't a single person decision to take the boat out. It's easy for people after the fact to pass judgement. If the vessel had been destroyed in the port we'd likely be reading all sorts of stories about how it would have been safer out at sea. Really a no win situation for those who make those decisions. |
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Tig
join:2006-06-29
Carrying Place, ON
1 edit |
to Sukunai
said by Sukunai:Sorry Gimli, I don't do google tag, the link was a matter of convenience, the knowledge of the event comes from my rather large not on google library and concerns the event mentioned from 1944 which I happen to be an expert on.
As near as I can tell the quote is from a 1953 Hanson Baldwin. New York Times, editorial on the 1944 event and the war in general. Hanson was a journalist and his bio makes no mention of being a mariner. He was doing what all journalists do, selling papers. Keep in mind that you don't get to be captain of a ship by spouting cocksure hindsight. If you get a moment, read the bio of the deceased man you are trashing. Robin Walbridge, RIP » www.tallshipbounty.org/t ··· idge.php |
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dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
to A Lurker
said by A Lurker:
I don't think they were sailing through it. They were trying to skirt around it (and end up south of it). Likely the decision was made because they felt the boat wasn't safe in port. If the electrical hadn't failed the story might be quite different.
they were sailing from Connecticut to Florida...essentially, right through the same path the storm took...while they may have missed the "eye" of the storm, the storm itself was 1500 kms wide, so they weren't skirting around it. quote:
I would suspect it wasn't a single person decision to take the boat out. It's easy for people after the fact to pass judgement. If the vessel had been destroyed in the port we'd likely be reading all sorts of stories about how it would have been safer out at sea. Really a no win situation for those who make those decisions.
it's a boat...if it got destroyed in the port, so what...instead, it still got destroyed and one person is dead, the captain is still missing (likely dead as well), and they are very lucky anyone managed to get rescued...that stupid move put the whole team in jeopardy...you don't need to be a captain of a sailing vessel to have some common sense. |
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NCRGuy
join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON |
NCRGuy
Member
2012-Oct-31 9:21 am
said by dirtyjeffer0:you don't need to be a captain of a sailing vessel to have some common sense.
No, you don't. But it sure does come in handy if you want to make intelligent comment about the actions and decisions of a captain. Real easy to Monday-morning quarterback from dry land on a computer in a basement, without any nautical understanding. |
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MaynardKrebsWe did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17 |
to dirtyjeffer0
Sailing vessels of that size and design don't move very fast, nor do they handle well in heavy winds/seas.
Without knowing all the details, it's possible that she ship left port BEFORE the weather forecast for SANDY indicated that it would turn into what it ultimately became, and was far enough into its voyage that it reached in essence what was a point-of-no-return when the scale of SANDY was known - too far to make shore, too dangerous to make shore, too slow to outrun/out-maneuver the storm in the time remaining.
This time of year is typically the end of hurricane season - and historically generally ends a bit earlier for all practical purposes. Taking a sailboat south from Toronto to Florida, one would typically depart around this time of year - demast, motor over Lake Ontario to the Erie Canal and down to the Hudson River, step the mast, head down to NYC and then out into the Atlantic, or use the intercoastal waterway for smaller yachts. Many yachts can't use the intercoastal - too deep a draft much of the way and too tall a mast for some bridges. Even in a place like Vancouver, a boat I sail on can't make it under the Burrard St. bridge because the mast is too tall even @ low tide. |
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Just curious, why go to all the trouble of demasting? If we had to motor even for a few days, we'd always just pull down the mainsail, never take the whole mast off. The windage can't be that bad? Or are you talking about a large yacht? |
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MaynardKrebsWe did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17 |
A 70' mast won't fit under bridges over the Erie Canal, and sailing out the St. Lawrence and down the coast takes too long. It's a relatively small window of time from the 'end' of hurricane season until you transition into 'ordinary' winter storms on the Atlantic coast. Hence the Eric Canal transit late October through til they close the canal for the winter.
The Toronto/NYC trip via Erie Canal can be done in a week of daylight-only motoring, except for the Toronto-Oswego run which is partially done at night. The middle of Lake Ontario is a cold lonely place in the middle of the night in November - you need full immersion survival gear for that trip too - same as on the ocean.
Depending on winds, it can take 2 days to get to Oswego from Toronto, but motoring takes about 18 hours @ 8 knots. As a general guide, Albany (Hudson River) to Oswego, NY will require about 3 days depending on your speed. The tack on time going down the Hudson to NYC.
The speed limits for the Erie Canal:
Between Lock #E-2 and lock #E-6 - 4.3 knots (5 mph).
Between Lock #E-6 and lock #E-12 - 39.1 knots (45 mph).
Between Lock #E-12 and lock #E-16 - 26.0 knots (30 mph).
Between Lock #E-16 and lock #E-17 - 8.7 knots (10 mph).
Between Locks #E-17 and Guard Gate #4 - 4.3 knots (5 mph).
Between Guard Gate #4 and lock #E-21 - 8.7 knots (10 mph).
Between Lock #E21 and the Sylvan Beach Breakwater - 4.3 knots (5 mph).
Oneida Lake - Unrestricted.
Between Brewerton Pier and Three Rvers Junction - 8.7 knots (10 mph).
Between Three Rivers Junction and State Ditch - 26 knots (30 mph).
State Ditch - 8.7 knots (10 mph).
Between State Ditch and lock #E-26 - 26.0 knots (30 mph).
Between Lock #E-26 and lock #E-32 - 8.7 knots (10 mph).
Between lock #E-32 and lock #E-33 - 4.3 knots (5 mph).
Between lock #E33 and Three Mile Island - 8.7 knots (10 mph).
Between Three Mile Island and the Niagra River - 4.3 knots (5 mph).
These speed limits are valid except in the vicinity of the locks and unless otherwise posted. The standard caveat also applies - "you are responsible for your wake!" |
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dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:No, you don't. But it sure does come in handy if you want to make intelligent comment about the actions and decisions of a captain.
Real easy to Monday-morning quarterback from dry land on a computer in a basement, without any nautical understanding.
i'm not Monday morning quarterbacking, nor do you need "nautical understanding" to know that sailing through one of the largest hurricanes ever to hit the USA was a bad move...i would have told you that before they set sail, or if it was even asked about. i heard that the woman who died even called her parents prior to leaving and said something along the lines of "If I don't make it back, please know I died doing what I love"...if that wasn't a tell tale sign of the stupid move it was, i don't know what is. |
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to NCRGuy
In the swells of this sad loss, many of us are left searching for answers. The towering question on everyone's mind is why the Bounty found itself at sea at all -- given the fact hurricane Sandy came with plenty of warning.
Evidently, Capt. Walbridge thought the ship could skirt the storm on its way to Florida -- a risk which fellow tall ship captain Dan Moreland of the Picton Castle said he could not fathom. Nor can anyone else.» www.winnipegfreepress.co ··· 251.htmlas i said earlier, stupid move. |
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