 Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | reply to robbin
Re: Generator doesn't work with Power Vent Hot Water Heater Not if it's not connected to the house wiring in any way. Just life the 10-2 and ground wire from the heater. |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | said by Jack_in_VA:Not if it's not connected to the house wiring in any way. Just life the 10-2 and ground wire from the heater.
Ok, so if the water heater is connected to the plumbing system by plastic pipe and not directly bonded to the ground system then it would't be connected. My guess is that at this point in time, the majority of homes in the US have metal pipe. |
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Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | said by robbin:said by Jack_in_VA:Not if it's not connected to the house wiring in any way. Just life the 10-2 and ground wire from the heater.
Ok, so if the water heater is connected to the plumbing system by plastic pipe and not directly bonded to the ground system then it would't be connected. My guess is that at this point in time, the majority of homes in the US have metal pipe. [/BQUOTE Majority? Maybe but definitely not all. |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | said by Jack_in_VA:Majority? Maybe but definitely not all.
True, but all gas water heaters are connected by a metal gas line and that line is bonded to the ground system. Same difference, still connected. |
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Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | said by robbin:said by Jack_in_VA:Majority? Maybe but definitely not all.
True, but all gas water heaters are connected by a metal gas line and that line is bonded to the ground system. Same difference, still connected. I don't recall specifying that I was talking about a gas fired water heater. More specifically I was using my electric water heater. |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | said by Jack_in_VA:I don't recall specifying that I was talking about a gas fired water heater.
That's what the thread is about. I responded to gary2k and then you responded to what I said.
Gas water heater / generator / extension cord / neutral ground bond. It connects to the electric system of the house. It is not isolated. |
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garys_2kPremium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI Reviews:
 ·callwithus
·Callcentric
| said by robbin:said by Jack_in_VA:I don't recall specifying that I was talking about a gas fired water heater.
That's what the thread is about. I responded to gary2k and then you responded to what I said. Gas water heater / generator / extension cord / neutral ground bond. It connects to the electric system of the house. It is not isolated. How's that? If the water heater is disconnected from the breaker, then connected to the generator via an extension cord, the generator's ground and neutral are bonded and then the generator's frame is connected (bonded, ideally) to the house ground, HOW are they "not isolated?" |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | said by garys_2k:said by robbin:Gas water heater / generator / extension cord / neutral ground bond. It connects to the electric system of the house. It is not isolated.
How's that? If the water heater is disconnected from the breaker, then connected to the generator via an extension cord, the generator's ground and neutral are bonded and then the generator's frame is connected (bonded, ideally) to the house ground, HOW are they "not isolated?" Well, I can quote you multiple times in this thread where you stated that a proper bond to ground was not required. However my original point, which you would know if you had read my prior posts, is that the water heater is still connected to the house via the ground system on metal water pipes as well as the gas line. This creates hazards. Especially with multiple extension cords laying around.
said by garys_2k:Nobody is talking (here) about connecting between the house wiring and a generator, other than the ground.
Why do you believe that the generator neutral is not connected to the entire house ground and neutral via the neutral / ground bond as I have described?? |
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 alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | said by robbin:However my original point, which you would know if you had read my prior posts, is that the water heater is still connected to the house via the ground system on metal water pipes as well as the gas line. This creates hazards. Especially with multiple extension cords laying around.
Why do you believe that the generator neutral is not connected to the entire house ground and neutral via the neutral / ground bond as I have described??
1 - Multiple extension cords laying around, but plugged in the generator, is a hazard by itself.
2 - Yes the generator would be effectively bonded to the house's ground through the copper pipes of the water heater. But what's your point? All ground systems should be bonded, even if they are from separately derived systems.
2.1 - Maybe you're thinking that the house's N/G bond is considered as a SECOND N/G bond, but that's incorrect, because the generator's neutral isn't connected to the house's neutral through a second line. |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
1 edit | said by alkizmo:2 - Yes the generator would be effectively bonded to the house's ground through the copper pipes of the water heater. But what's your point? All ground systems should be bonded, even if they are from separately derived systems.
The safety of a floating neutral generator is inherent in the design as since there is no ground, there is no shock or electrocution hazard from say standing in a wet puddle. The only way to be part of the current path is by touching both hot and neutral. Once the generator has a neutral ground bond added, this is no longer the case. My point is that the water heater is not isolated from the house as was posted. The entire house ground system is now energized. As a result, there are now many ways to receive an unhealthy or killing shock.
The fact that the Power Vent water heater only draws about 2 amps virtually guarantees that other devices will be powered concurrently with the water heater. As the generator has not been fully installed as code would require means that there is no shock protection for the house residents. Yes, every outlet in your kitchen has GFCI protection, but that extension cord coming in through the window does not (floating neutral generators do not have GFCI protection).
The generator as shipped by the manufacturer does not need to be grounded as it is isolated by design. There is nothing unsafe about using the generator without grounding it if it is used as it was designed to be used -- with extension cords only. Remember, the reason we need protection from ground faults is that our electrical distribution system is an earthed system, meaning that ground is part of the entire system. This is not the case with a portable, floating neutral generator. Generators which come with ground bonds also come with GFCI protection. |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | said by robbin: The entire house ground system is now energized. As a result, there are now many ways to receive an unhealthy or killing shock. it would normally trip the breaker on the generator (Or stall the generator) as the current would be flowing back to the neutral.
said by robbin:The only way to be part of the current path is by touching both hot and neutral. See I never knew that. I thought that no matter the source of current, you'd get shocked (Unless you were completely rubber proofed from touching anything that would conduct current to the ground).
I guess a precaution would be a GFCI protected extension cord. |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | said by alkizmo:said by robbin: The entire house ground system is now energized. As a result, there are now many ways to receive an unhealthy or killing shock. it would normally trip the breaker on the generator (Or stall the generator) as the current would be flowing back to the neutral. Breakers provide overcurrent protection to prevent fires. They do not protect human life.
said by alkizmo:said by robbin:The only way to be part of the current path is by touching both hot and neutral. See I never knew that. I thought that no matter the source of current, you'd get shocked (Unless you were completely rubber proofed from touching anything that would conduct current to the ground). There was no ground and no need for it until the user followed your advice. Forget about ground, you need two conductors to complete a circuit. Ground is not one of them with a floating neutral generator. |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | said by robbin:Breakers provide overcurrent protection to prevent fires. They do not protect human life.
Right, but unless the short occurs while your touching something grounded, the breaker would trip quickly.
You're describing something that can happen with utility power in house circuits. |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | I am talking about human life. What you recommended provides no safety. It is dangerous.
No, it cannot happen to the same degree with utility power if the house is less than 30 years old. They have GFCI protection on at least some circuits. You have both a baby and inlaws from out of the country in your home. Would you want either of them exposed to the shock hazard I have described? Put another way, if your house had no GFCIs in either the kitchen or the bathroom, would you feel comfortable with your family's safety? |
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sk1939Premium
join:2010-10-23
Washington, DC
kudos:9 Reviews:
 ·T-Mobile US
| reply to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:said by robbin:Breakers provide overcurrent protection to prevent fires. They do not protect human life.
Right, but unless the short occurs while your touching something grounded, the breaker would trip quickly. You're describing something that can happen with utility power in house circuits. No, actually breakers don't trip unless you ground the circuit or overload the circuit. It takes very little current to stop your heart, which is why GFCI's trip so low. You get shocked when you complete the circuit by providing a path to ground. Ground potential is important here.
Generator and utility power isn't that different. |
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 pikePremium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3 | reply to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:See I never knew that.
Precisely why you should refrain from dispensing electrical advice on a home improvement forum. |
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| reply to robbin
said by robbin:Put another way, if your house had no GFCIs in either the kitchen or the bathroom, would you feel comfortable with your family's safety?
Yup. Why? Cause when I grew up in the 70's and 80's there were no GFCIs in the kitchen or bathroom. You learned real quick to be careful with electricity. May sound harsh but you could call it survival of the fittest.
Even used some home brew extension cords which were some heavy gauge wire and a steel box with a socket in the end. All the while using a 3 prong "cheater" adapter. |
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Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | reply to pike
said by pike:said by alkizmo:See I never knew that.
Precisely why you should refrain from dispensing electrical advice on a home improvement forum. I hope you are addressing that to a bunch of other posters and not just singling out alkizmo |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | reply to itguy05
said by itguy05:May sound harsh but you could call it survival of the fittest That's what you think we do here -- cull the herd?  |
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 djrobx
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:1
·VOIPo
·Verizon Wireless..
 ·RoadRunner Cable
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to itguy05
said by itguy05:said by robbin:Put another way, if your house had no GFCIs in either the kitchen or the bathroom, would you feel comfortable with your family's safety?
Yup. Why? Cause when I grew up in the 70's and 80's there were no GFCIs in the kitchen or bathroom. You learned real quick to be careful with electricity. May sound harsh but you could call it survival of the fittest. Even used some home brew extension cords which were some heavy gauge wire and a steel box with a socket in the end. All the while using a 3 prong "cheater" adapter. This.
The funniest part is that we had tons of those cheater adapters, because some brainiac thought it was a good idea to replace a good number of our home's three prong outlets with two-prong child safety plugs. *Smacks forehead*. They were spring loaded. You'd have to plug in sideways, twist 90 degrees, then fully insert.
I only recently cleaned up most of this mess because we sold the home. Replaced them with proper 3 prong outlets and verified them with a tester, and installed GFCIs in the bathrooms, kitchen, and garage.
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AT&T U-Hearse - RIP Unlimited Internet 1995-2011
Rethink Billable.
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