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firstness

@telus.net

[AB] Telus routing Edmonton-Seattle traffic through Chicago

My favourite game server is hosted on wowrack.com which is located in Seattle. I noticed I was getting 120+ ms ping which is ludicrous. Here is the traceroute:

Tracing route to 208-115-118-200-reverse.wowrack.com [208.115.118.200] over a maximum of 30 hops:
 
  1    1 ms    1 ms    1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2    26 ms    26 ms    26 ms  10.157.64.1
  3    26 ms    25 ms    25 ms  edtnabxmca01.bb.telus.com [173.182.194.194]
  4    54 ms    55 ms    55 ms  chcgildtgr00.bb.telus.com [154.11.11.34]
  5    62 ms    63 ms    65 ms  206.111.2.57.ptr.us.xo.net [206.111.2.57]
  6    73 ms    71 ms    71 ms  207.88.14.193.ptr.us.xo.net [207.88.14.193]
  7   119 ms   119 ms   119 ms  te-4-1-0.rar3.denver-co.us.xo.net [207.88.12.22]
  8   113 ms   112 ms   111 ms  te-3-0-0.rar3.seattle-wa.us.xo.net [207.88.12.81]
  9   117 ms   117 ms   118 ms  ae0d0.cir1.seattle7-wa.us.xo.net [207.88.13.141]
 10   110 ms   110 ms   110 ms  216.156.100.14.ptr.us.xo.net [216.156.100.14]
 11   118 ms   117 ms   118 ms  WOWRack-TUK-10000M.demarc.spectrumnet.us [216.243.28.250]
 12   117 ms   117 ms   118 ms  core0-p5.tuk.wowrack.net [216.244.88.34]
 13   110 ms   110 ms   110 ms  dist0-p2.tuk.wowrack.net [216.244.88.10]
 14   117 ms   117 ms   117 ms  208-115-118-200-reverse.wowrack.com [208.115.118.200]
 
Trace complete.
 
The host names indicate the traffic is going through Chicago and Denver on its way to Seattle. Is there anything that can be done about this terrible routing?


pfak
Premium
join:2002-12-29
Vancouver, BC
said by firstness :

Is there anything that can be done about this terrible routing?

I would contact Wowrack Support and see if they can turn up some peering, or have them reach out to TELUS. This is the only way the issue will get resolved. I used to host with Wowrack, and they were pretty receptive to dealing with my routing issues.
--
The more I C, the less I see.

pb2k

join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TELUS
reply to firstness
said by firstness :

The host names indicate the traffic is going through Chicago and Denver on its way to Seattle. Is there anything that can be done about this terrible routing?

Blame xo.net , not telus.


rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
said by pb2k:

said by firstness :

The host names indicate the traffic is going through Chicago and Denver on its way to Seattle. Is there anything that can be done about this terrible routing?

Blame xo.net , not telus.

Correcto! Don't bother asking Telus regarding the issue, best bet is contact the Hosting Provider and see if they can talk to their peer XO and if not, contact XO directly and see. No ISP has ever really listened to a customer regarding routing. Only major thing bad routing will affect is anything that is latecy intensive (mostly gaming, voip, etc) and they could care less about that.


Mister M

join:2010-05-01
Vancouver, BC
reply to firstness
3 37 ms 37 ms 39 ms VANCBC01GR01.bb.telus.com [154.11.10.10]
4 38 ms 85 ms 37 ms sea-brdr-02.inet.qwest.net [63.146.27.225]
5 * * * Request timed out.
6 37 ms 36 ms 37 ms cr1-tuk-t9-3.bb.spectrumnet.us [67.129.97.130]
7 38 ms 37 ms 38 ms WOWRack-TUK-10000M.demarc.spectrumnet.us [216.24
3.28.250]
8 38 ms 37 ms 38 ms core0-p5.tuk.wowrack.net [216.244.88.34]
9 38 ms 38 ms 39 ms dist0-p2.tuk.wowrack.net [216.244.88.10]
10 37 ms 39 ms 38 ms 208-115-118-200-reverse.wowrack.com [208.115.118
.200]

Trace complete.

Looks fine from here.


nss_tech

join:2007-07-29
Edmonton AB
Mister M, looks like your path skipped anything east of the rockies. Seemed to drop from Vancouver right down to Washington state on Qwest while the rest of us hit Chicago first.


firstness

@telus.net
reply to Mister M
I see you're in Vancouver? I just moved from Vancouver to Edmonton which is when I noticed the 100 ms increase in ping.

I sent a support request to the game company which is hosted on wowrack, but I'm not holding out much hope of improvement.

TheMG
Premium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·NorthWest Tel

1 edit
reply to firstness
I've noticed this in Alberta too. It seems all traffic from Telus in Alberta gets routed through Chicago for whatever reason.

Example (these traces were done from the Telus connection at my parent's house in Grande Prairie, Alberta):
Tracing route to seattle.voip.ms [69.147.236.82]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
 
  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.254
  2    18 ms     6 ms    14 ms  10.145.238.1
  3    59 ms    59 ms    59 ms  CHCGILDTGR01.bb.telus.com [154.11.13.186]
  4    54 ms    57 ms    56 ms  173.182.200.66
  5    65 ms    71 ms    71 ms  69.174.121.89
  6    68 ms    71 ms    71 ms  69.174.120.146
  7   110 ms   107 ms   107 ms  te0-1.cr1.sea1.us.packetexchange.net [69.174.120.21]
  8   103 ms   112 ms   103 ms  72.37.232.234
  9   104 ms   102 ms   103 ms  69.147.236.82.rdns.ubiquityservers.com [69.147.236.82]
 
Trace complete.
 

And another...
Tracing route to c-208-146-44-143.managed-ded.premium-seattle.nfoservers.com [208.146.44.143]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
 
  1     1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.254
  2    11 ms     7 ms     7 ms  10.145.238.1
  3    61 ms    53 ms    52 ms  chcgildtgr00.bb.telus.com [154.11.11.34]
  4    46 ms    46 ms    46 ms  173.182.200.2
  5    53 ms    53 ms    53 ms  te0-2-0-1.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.29.21]
  6    58 ms    58 ms    59 ms  te0-1-0-3.ccr22.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.5.173]
  7    70 ms    70 ms    70 ms  te2-7.ccr02.den01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.87.93]
  8    81 ms    81 ms    81 ms  te0-1-0-1.ccr21.slc01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.3.14]
  9   109 ms   109 ms   109 ms  te4-6.ccr02.sea01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.80.9]
 10   103 ms   102 ms   102 ms  te4-2.ccr01.sea03.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.41.146]
 11   106 ms   105 ms   105 ms  Internap-Network-Services.demarc.cogentco.com [38.104.124.82]
 12    98 ms   103 ms   107 ms  border9.t8-1-bbnet2.sef.pnap.net [63.251.160.83]
 13   104 ms   109 ms   105 ms  c-208-146-44-143.managed-ded.premium-seattle.nfoservers.com [208.146.44.143]
 
Trace complete.
 

Like, WTF? It's not like Telus doesn't have a network towards the west. Network map below is straight from Telus website (»about.telus.com/community/englis···_network ):



So what is it with Seattle-bound traffic from Alberta being routed through Chicago? Doesn't make any sense at all.

pb2k

join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TELUS
reply to firstness
Does nobody know routing and moreso how peering/transit agreements work? Telus has major peering sites at chicago, new york, san jose, seattle, toronto and washington with a smattering of other small POPs. Chicago and San Jose are the biggest and have the most connections to transit providor's (nlayer, internap, etc), who generally provide cheap bandwidth to data center customers. The rest of the connections are to content providor's (google, microsoft, facebook, akiami, etc) and other residential and business ISPs (Qwest, cablevision, shaw etc).

Contrary to what some of you seem to think, not everybody is connected into a big switch happy exabit switch that allows free passage of packets anywhere they need to go.

If you look at the OP's tracert vs mister m's, you can see that one runs through a cheap transit providor's network and the other has to run over qwests network, which costs more.

Thus spectrum net advertises a better route through xo.net because they don't want to pay the premium to qwest.

So either wowrack (or spectrumnet or xo.net) needs to peer with telus at seattle (good luck making this happen) or wowrack needs to adjust their route advertisements to pickup more traffic from qwest (equally unlikely).

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to firstness
The problem is with Telus' IP transit network and their poor peering in Seattle. Most of Telus' traffic goes through Chicago.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to TheMG
said by TheMG:

Like, WTF? It's not like Telus doesn't have a network towards the west. Network map below is straight from Telus website

So what is it with Seattle-bound traffic from Alberta being routed through Chicago? Doesn't make any sense at all.

The map is an indication of where they have fibre, where they interconnect with other carriers to exchange wireline/wireless voice traffic, etc. but isn't an indication as to how and where they peer with their IP transit network. Telus' has extremely limited peering in Seattle and only does private peering. They don't have any public peering in Seattle as they do in Chicago, New York and San Jose. That results in some pretty awful routes going to networks on the west coast.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to firstness
said by firstness :

I sent a support request to the game company which is hosted on wowrack, but I'm not holding out much hope of improvement.

It is very unlikely they can do anything about this. The problem is with Telus.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to pb2k
said by pb2k:

So either wowrack (or spectrumnet or xo.net) needs to peer with telus at seattle (good luck making this happen) or wowrack needs to adjust their route advertisements to pickup more traffic from qwest (equally unlikely).

They can't peer where a provider does not want to peer with networks. The problem is with Telus.


pfak
Premium
join:2002-12-29
Vancouver, BC
reply to pb2k
said by pb2k:

So either wowrack (or spectrumnet or xo.net) needs to peer with telus at seattle (good luck making this happen) or wowrack needs to adjust their route advertisements to pickup more traffic from qwest (equally unlikely).

TELUS are a bunch of bastards to peer with. You know this, so stop pretending like it's easy.
--
The more I C, the less I see.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to firstness
The difference between Telus and Shaw is like night and day. Shaw actually has IP transit out of Seattle and a pretty decent mix of peering although there is some room for improvement.


rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to firstness
Umm, nlayer and Internap are high end backbone providers, not low at all. If anything, XO is the cheaper end of any of them. I've had awesome luck with Internap.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
said by rustydusty:

Umm, nlayer and Internap are high end backbone providers, not low at all. If anything, XO is the cheaper end of any of them. I've had awesome luck with Internap.

He doesn't know what he is talking about.


rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to firstness
However, you definitely do.

pb2k

join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TELUS
reply to rustydusty
said by rustydusty:

Umm, nlayer and Internap are high end backbone providers, not low at all. If anything, XO is the cheaper end of any of them. I've had awesome luck with Internap.

If you read carefully, all i said was that the bandwidth was cheap, compared to TELUS and probably most other telcos. I wasn't knocking the companys.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
said by pb2k:

If you read carefully, all i said was that the bandwidth was cheap, compared to TELUS and probably most other telcos. I wasn't knocking the companys.

Those providers provide cheaper rates because they're providing service to (mostly) wholesale customers in major metro areas as opposed to customers of Telus more often being in areas with no or little competition so they're gouged on pricing. But the same holds true for customers of the other incumbent carriers in Canada. Even with those providers if you're outside of a major metro area the pricing can be pretty high.


pfak
Premium
join:2002-12-29
Vancouver, BC
reply to firstness
Severe packet loss between Telia and TELUS in Seattle. Ugh!
--
The more I C, the less I see.

WhosTheBosch

join:2009-12-02
reply to firstness
A lot of Telus' peering issues could be solved by joining SIX in Seattle, however, for whatever corporate reason they're against it. Shaw, SaskTel, Novus, Primus and Bell are all a member which is why they have a large number of better routes through the West coast. If Telus got involved with SIX they would have direct peers with a large number of companies:

»www.seattleix.net/participants.htm

Facebook
Akami
AT&T
Bell
Shaw
Limelight
Netflix
OpenDNS
nLayer
Microsoft
Peer1
Softlayer
Yahoo

Most of these companies handle a large amount of the Internets bandwidth or host companies that do, so by not peering within SIX Telus is causing bad routing issues within it's network on the west coast.

Also, the OP's problems would be solved as WowRack is also a member of SIX.

WhosTheBosch

join:2009-12-02
reply to rustydusty
said by rustydusty:

Umm, nlayer and Internap are high end backbone providers, not low at all. If anything, XO is the cheaper end of any of them. I've had awesome luck with Internap.

They may be high VOLUME backbone providers, however they are not high QUALITY bandwidth providers.


rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB

1 edit
reply to firstness
Time and time again, I get more consistent routes and pings to any Internap provider. Even better because they have such a mix and their FCP is beautiful. Never seen such consistency between multiple locations in the US. They are more expensive for a reason.

»as.robtex.com/as14745.html#graph


pfak
Premium
join:2002-12-29
Vancouver, BC
I like Internap! But of course TELUS fowls it up by going via Cogent :)

traceroute to crash.pfak.org (204.14.120.68), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets using UDP
 1  10.31.198.1 (10.31.198.1)  8.114 ms   6.963 ms   6.363 ms
 2  204.225.243.22 (204.225.243.22)  10.919 ms   10.751 ms   10.765 ms
 3  te7-4.ccr02.sea02.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.10.45)  10.270 ms   10.170 ms   13.844 ms
 4  te2-7.ccr02.sea01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.85.181)  10.171 ms te2-8.ccr02.sea01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.85.185)  30.183 ms te2-7.ccr02.sea01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.85.181)  9.191 ms
 5  te4-2.ccr01.sea03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.41.146)  34.785 ms   33.464 ms   32.482 ms
 6  Internap-Network-Services.demarc.cogentco.com (38.104.124.82)  10.281 ms   13.763 ms   13.879 ms
 7  border2.te12-1-bbnet1.sea.pnap.net (63.251.160.7)  12.962 ms border2-bbnet2.sea.pnap.net (63.251.160.78)  10.986 ms border2.te12-1-bbnet1.sea.pnap.net (63.251.160.7)  10.657 ms
 8  farreachnet-2.border2.sea.pnap.net (206.253.223.190)  10.846 ms   9.963 ms   9.570 ms
 9  216.18.239.26 (216.18.239.26)  11.738 ms   11.537 ms   10.906 ms
10  gw.pfak.org (204.14.120.66)  9.755 ms   11.311 ms   9.712 ms
11  crash.pfak.org (204.14.120.68)  10.133 ms   9.533 ms   9.331 ms
 

--
The more I C, the less I see.

jwvo

join:2001-07-27
Seattle, WA
We (spectrumnet.us) just turned up peering with telus in Seattle. This issue should be fixed now.