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Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON

Bullfrog Power -- an interesting concept

»www.bullfrogpower.com/home/onfaq1.cfm#ont1

This seems to be a way of putting one's money where one's mouth is to help contribute clean energy to the Canadian grid (and natural gas supplies). It's not an energy contract, like switching to an alternative energy provider; instead, it seems to be a way to pay a small premium to ensure that green energy continues to be used.

So you end up paying more, but I guess you feel better about your energy usage. Maybe a bit like buying carbon offsets, or something like that.

Anyways, just thought I'd share, as I got info from them in my email because of a current AirMiles offer if you sign up. I'm curious to know if people have heard of this or used it. It sounds interesting, although a little bit expensive.

P.S. I linked to their FAQ, as it seemed to provide the best summary of the service.
--
"Moving your Tylenol to the low shelf in your medicine cabinet is not the way to prevent children from falling off a stool when reaching for the top shelf." (said by Savant, May 2008)



elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2

NM I was wrong.

Expand your moderator at work

graniterock

join:2003-03-14
London, ON
reply to Styvas

Re: Bullfrog Power -- an interesting concept

I've been a member for years. It adds about $20 / month fixed a month to my utility bills. Having them go through your hydro bill adds an uneccessary charge so I pay seperate from my hydro bill.



ChuckcZar

@teksavvy.com
reply to Styvas

Harnessing the power of the Frog Pond. It sounds like the answer to everything.


Tig

join:2006-06-29
Carrying Place, ON
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to Styvas

Bullfrog is a great idea, but they are tied to our current IWT policies, which are a mess. I can't support that when I have alternatives to sponsor green in my own yard.
I prefer incentives for individuals, rather than corporations. I'm not saying that's a more efficient use of funds (again policy issues), I'm just saying the decisions involved are with the people who live with the impact/benefit.



J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..

1 recommendation

reply to Styvas

quote:
Maybe a bit like buying carbon offsets
That's all you're doing. Spending more on electric so you don't feel as guilty about polluting.

This is what Al Gore does.
Al Gore uses the MOST gas/electric for any residential property in his home state (well, the least I heard anyway).
Al Gore is very rich. So he can afford this.

However, I feel that buying carbon offset is a load of BS because it doesn't do a hell of a lot at actually protecting your environment.

I'd rather see people being more energy misers than buy their right to pollute. IMO.

Now I am not saying what the company itself is doing is wrong or dishonest, as that is not the case. I just don't like the idea of elitists using this as an excuse to have a massive carbon footprint. (and believe me, guys like Susuki and Gore have a massive carbon footprint due to their travels and massive use of energy at home)
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to Styvas

Ontario's power is already in the ballpark of 2/3rds from green sources... Not sure there's much point in this.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


Tig

join:2006-06-29
Carrying Place, ON
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·TekSavvy DSL

2 edits

The OPG site shows about 50%. Which is still impressive.
»www.powerauthority.on.ca/current···ontracts
I thought it would be less than 10%
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
I guess a lot of things came together. FIT projects comming online, combined with industry leaving the province, have allowed us to decommission coal plants and tip the ballance.

Edit: Ooops. Re-reading my link, I note that the chart represents contract capacity not actual output or usage. Knowing that, the 2/3 from green sources statement is very plausible since gas is often commissioned as backup for the green sources.



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

The graph on that page shows 63.6% as clean energy, very nearly two thirds. 21085 MW total, 13,406 MW are clean. Considering the Americans get much of their power from coal, and almost all the non-clean energy in Ontario is the far cleaner natural gas, I think stuff like this "bullfrog" thing is a scam.

Talking about a scam, they want to charge $40 for "green power" in a 2000 sqft house in Quebec.

Quebec gets 96.4% of energy from green sources, almost all of that renewable sources. And these Bullfrog people want $40 a month to somehow improve on that. Total scam.

EDIT: It really is a scam, they just spend the money on PR stuff, they don't actually put your money towards actual green power. Any green power that is generated would be consumed with or without the Bullfrog people. They're just preying upon peoples' sense of guilt. The government should really shut them down for fraud.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


MichelR

join:2011-07-03
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·voip.ms
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by Guspaz:

EDIT: It really is a scam, they just spend the money on PR stuff, they don't actually put your money towards actual green power. Any green power that is generated would be consumed with or without the Bullfrog people. They're just preying upon peoples' sense of guilt. The government should really shut them down for fraud.

Agreed.


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to Guspaz

Technically it's not a scam, however, there's no way to confirm whether the emissions reduction is being double counted, once by the entity, usually the government, when it sells the electricity wholesale to local utilities, and again by Bullfrog Power when they "sell" the energy to their customers. Consumers should realize though, that they are being double charged if they under contract with Bullfrog Power: The 1st time to pay for the green energy generation at the provincial level sold by the local utility, the 2nd time when they "buy" electricity from Bullfrog Power.

Like all-electric vehicles, this is a niche product only, because the vast majority of customers will not pay a premium that isn't recoverable over the contract term.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.



thebaron
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Stittsville, ON
reply to Styvas

A fool and his money... What a ridiculous thing to do. Take the $20 bucks a month and donate it to one of the hippie foundations if you're really feeling that guilty about needing light to read your book.


graniterock

join:2003-03-14
London, ON
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable

1 recommendation

reply to digitalfutur

When I first signed up several years ago I was a bit skeptical too. I did talk a bit with them via email in '07. My basic understanding is the premium is used to invest in and compensate green energy producers and acts to accelerate the creation of projects faster than what the current government incentives do. It is slightly different than a carbon offset. With a carbon offset for example they might plant X number of trees to compensate for Y amount of carbon to remove what you put in. With bullfrog they promise to create a kWh of green energy for every kWh of energy you use and that it is energy that would not have otherwise been created without their program. (Which is key)

I do agree with the comments that it is niche and not for everybody. My roof is shady so solar isn't a good option. I don't feel like fighting angry mobs near goderich trying to plug a 200 km extension cord directly into one of their wind mills. So for me bullfrog is a good alternative.

Bullfrog definitely encourages conservation in their newsletters and highlights it as way to mitigate the increased costs of their program. I recently got one of those handy power use monitors from them to help identify how much hydro things in my house use.

Does the 2/3 stat for Ontario green energy include nuclear? While nuclear may be renewal (we have lots of atoms don't we?) and IMHO the plants in ontario relatively safe, it isn't considered green by many.



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to Styvas

92% of power in Quebec is hydro, most of the rest is thermal stuff like biogas. And a touch of nuclear, although they're shutting it down. What exactly is Bullfrog going to do in Quebec to improve the power generation which is produced by HydroQuebec (who have a monopoly on power generation)?
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



ekster
Hi there
Premium
join:2010-07-16
Lachine, QC
kudos:3
Reviews:
·FreePhoneLine

They had me puzzled on the Quebec page...

»www.bullfrogpower.com/home/powerque.cfm

We import 20% of our electricity from outside? I was not aware of that. Does Quebec really do that?

And they list 76%, which is hydro electricity, as 'other', and then list their bullfrog electricity as 100% green that comes from... hydro!



Tenar

join:2008-01-02
Midland, ON
reply to Styvas

Here is a site where you can see the sources of your power (per hour)



»media.cns-snc.ca/ontarioelectric···ity.html


Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Canada
reply to Styvas

I looked into this, didn't see how adding an extra layer of expense for the electrons I used was going to save the planet.

Voted with my wallet
--
»libertarian.on.ca/



dillyhammer
START me up
Premium,MVM
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
kudos:10
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·Start Communicat..
reply to ekster

said by ekster:

We import 20% of our electricity from outside? I was not aware of that. Does Quebec really do that?

Don't even get me started.

Quebec imports 20% of it's electricity. This surprises you?

Wait until you find out how much you export. And to whom.

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


ekster
Hi there
Premium
join:2010-07-16
Lachine, QC
kudos:3
Reviews:
·FreePhoneLine

I know about the exportation part very well, but I'm unaware of the importing part. Unless it's Hydro Q's electricity being imported back after it exported it, or it's just electricity passing through us to the to another state/province.

Tried looking but couldn't find anything specific about imports.



dillyhammer
START me up
Premium,MVM
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
kudos:10
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·Start Communicat..

Yeah... it's a shell game, with magical disappearing peas.

I had difficulty with the Bullfrog concept anyways, but the games being played with our resources to the detriment of our wallets and the benefit of a very select few made the whole Bullfrog idea moot.

For me anyway.

It's all one big scam, Bullfrog included.

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


Tig

join:2006-06-29
Carrying Place, ON
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to Guspaz

Ok, I see. I was only considering renewable as green. After all, natural gas is a fossil fuel, just like natural coal, but cleaner.
The contract chart will always include significant portions of gas, since to my knowledge, gas is required to back up solar and wind sources on rainy calm days.

Tenant, that chart is what I was expecting to see. Itty bitty slice of wind/solar.

All in all I see no issue with others supporting and promoting BF. it needs to be done.



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to ekster

said by ekster:

They had me puzzled on the Quebec page...

»www.bullfrogpower.com/home/powerque.cfm

We import 20% of our electricity from outside? I was not aware of that. Does Quebec really do that?

And they list 76%, which is hydro electricity, as 'other', and then list their bullfrog electricity as 100% green that comes from... hydro!

We import during the winter and export during the summer, among other things. We also provide something like a third of all power in Vermont (28% in 2003, but we've increased the deal since then). Considering that we export something like 20 terawatt hours of power per year (Vermont's total consumption is 6), we're doing pretty good.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org