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Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Immer

Re: [Raiding] Mean People Suck

said by Immer:

It has all been said, man. You called my approach white-knighting, remember?

That's because it is. Go back and read your own responses. This is a moral duty, if you aren't actively/aggressively hunting down every verbal abuser in your raid, you become part of the problem! You are either with us or against us. This is not the Global War on Abuse (GWOA has less of a ring to it). There was no 9/11 of LFR abusers where they came to your house and called you nasty things in front of your kids.

It's the internet. Welcome, and enjoy your stay.

90% of the verbal abuse problems are solved with a report and ignore. If you emotionally invest yourself in ridding every LFR group you are in of any sort verbal abuse, you are going to end up quitting the game a frustrated person.

I'd even posit that if the abuser is competently fulfilling his or her role in the raid, it's better to just put them on ignore and finish the raid, than kick them and get a Very Nice baddy that is stacking spellpower on his ret pally because he's movie-moding through the instance.

In my personal, anecdotal experience, most verbal abuse has a competence issue associated with it (tank dies, brez'd, dies, because he can't click in Ultrax--random person insults the tank for his lack of intelligence--who should you kick?). Dealing with the abuse that comes is just a red herring--deal with the competence failure that led to it in the first place.

Everyone else is fed up with fails, too, so the number of people ready to dump abuse on someone expecting to get carried is going to be high.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
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Clearly, this is not vehement agreement. As for the moral duty thing, I'd take it a step up and call it a social duty. I expect people to speak up in LFR just like I expect them to in a crowded restaurant when they witness abusive behavior. It doesn't happen a lot... but if it happens in front of me, I am not going to ignore it. I am simply challenging others to do the same.

You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree. Call them out civilly, and if they "go full retard" /ignore and then VTK. No reason to stop being civil. Is that really so difficult a concept? well... given the number of posts in this thread... I guess it is. Like I said... it really has all been said, man. My arguments have not changed.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
quote:
The biggest problem with this thread isn't that you think I'm right or that I think you're wrong, it's that you don't even understand my argument. It's like trying to explain to a dog why he shouldn't run a red light. At the end of the day, he's just going to hump your leg, take a shit on your carpet and not understand what you've said.
This is the problem with this thread. You're still arguing why the purple sun is potato.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
There is no problem with this thread. It's doing what it is supposed to do.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

1 recommendation

reply to Immer
said by Immer:

Clearly, this is not vehement agreement. As for the moral duty thing, I'd take it a step up and call it a social duty. I expect people to speak up in LFR just like I expect them to in a crowded restaurant when they witness abusive behavior. It doesn't happen a lot... but if it happens in front of me, I am not going to ignore it. I am simply challenging others to do the same.

You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree. Call them out civilly, and if they "go full retard" /ignore and then VTK. No reason to stop being civil. Is that really so difficult a concept? well... given the number of posts in this thread... I guess it is. Like I said... it really has all been said, man. My arguments have not changed.

Let's go back to this and how contradictory it seems in my book. You expect people to confront abusive behavior in LFR similar to how you would confront it in a restaurant. The way you confront behavior in LFR is to say "You're being really mean." If there's anything other than a Canadian-style apology exchange taking place, your solution is to put the guy on ignore (put your head in the sand) and then start up a vote kick. What if the vote kick fails? What if the guy continually berates the rest of the raid? You've put him on ignore so the world is right in your book, but you continue to see responses from people in raid chat who are angered by this guy.

Let's go to your restaurant analogy. You see abusive behavior going on and you think it is your moral duty to confront it. A guy is yelling at a waitress in a manner that is clearly way more than just being dissatisfied with the service. He's personally berating her, raising his voice and the waitress is obviously scared. Your solution is to stand up in the restaurant and blurt out "Hey man, those are mean words!". If the guy blurts out "fuck you", your solution is to then put your hands up to your ears, close your eyes, put your tongue out and chant "la la la la la", while sitting back down in your chair and going on with your business. Meanwhile, you've accomplished absolutely nothing other than making yourself feel like you did. You leave the restaurant, go home and tell all your friends the good deed you did and your peers wank furiously to your moral superiority. In the meantime, you've done absolutely nothing to correct the actual problem.

In my world, I'd stand up to the guy in the restaurant and say the same thing, "You're being really mean". If the guy doesn't apology to the waitress, I then do what I do best. I don't just insult the guy. That's too simple. I don't just raise my voice or threaten the guy or do anything that anyone else does. I humiliate him in front of everyone. Within about 15 seconds, I'll have the entire restaurant laughing at this guy as if he walked in without clothes and just had a sudden realization. These people self-implode. Complete and utter humiliation kicks in and they leave. The problem is solved, the abuser is taught a lesson and the victim is actually rescued from a bad situation.

But I have to say some pretty rude things to make that happen. You start by being civil. You don't start off by being rude. You give people the option to be civil. You give people the option to be intelligent. You give people the option of backing away from a bad decision or a mistake. Some people respond to that. Some don't. When they don't, you go for the throat.

So, when I bring up the dog/red light analogy, I mean it. You're too busy trying to convince everyone that I'm the guy in the restaurant belittling the waitress when in reality, I'm accomplishing what you only think you accomplish, but I'm the bad guy because I have to get my hands dirty in the process.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree.

Another straw man.

Performance failures warrant ppublic embarrassment (getting called out in front of the group), honesty (being told what exactly is the issue), and the full wrath of the 24 people who's time you are wasting (a vote kick).

You aren't going get a vote-kick passed expediently by insulting the fail's mom, you are going to point out that his DPS levels are barely worthy of WotLK raids.

Is that verbal brutality? Then you better grow thicker skin, because truth hurts.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Immer
Gentleman
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Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
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said by Krisnatharok:

said by Immer:

You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree.

Another straw man.

Performance failures warrant public embarrassment correction (getting called out in front of the group), honesty (being told what exactly is the issue), and the full wrath of the 24 people who's time you are wasting (a vote kick) if they fail to take corrective action.

You aren't going get a vote-kick passed expediently by insulting the fail's mom, you are going to point out that his DPS levels are barely worthy of WotLK raids.

Is that verbal brutality? Then you better grow thicker skin, because truth hurts.

Cool. I wasn't erecting a straw-man. This is the first time I've seen you guys somewhat agree on what I'd call abuse. As I've said repeatedly, this isn't about calling someone out for failing at mechanics or dpsing the floor tile... it's about abuse.

lol @ thicker skin comment.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Immer
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Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
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reply to Archivis
said by Archivis:

So, when I bring up the dog/red light analogy, I mean it. You're too busy trying to convince everyone that I'm the guy in the restaurant belittling the waitress when in reality, I'm accomplishing what you only think you accomplish, but I'm the bad guy because I have to get my hands dirty in the process.

You keep going there because you don't understand my approach... you assume you know it all.

but you were right on one thing... I probably wouldn't /ignore until after the VTK failed.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
Right, so the guy in the restaurant doesn't respond to the "You're mean, you should stop or leave" so you just put your head in the sand while he continues to berate his victim.

You are entirely ineffective. You cannot simultaneously state that you have a moral duty to stick up to bullying of any kind while refusing to actually stick up to bullying, cyber or otherwise.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Immer
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Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
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I speak up, not the way you implied. I take action, not the actions you implied. I get results without compromising my integrity or values. I fight when a fight is warranted. You keep making me out to be a pacifist. That's completely untrue. You don't understand me or what I stand for. That is why I'm not trying to change you, or convince you of anything.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
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join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
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reply to Immer
said by Immer:

said by Krisnatharok:

You aren't going get a vote-kick passed expediently by insulting the fail's mom...

Cool. I wasn't erecting a straw-man. This is the first time I've seen you guys somewhat agree on what I'd call abuse. As I've said repeatedly, this isn't about calling someone out for failing at mechanics or dpsing the floor tile... it's about abuse.

Did you miss the negative on purpose?
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
No I didn't miss it at all. I found common ground in that statment in the text I put in bold, because it meant that you "aren't going to insult the fail's mom". I'm tracking, dude.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
reply to Immer
Please, educate us on your methods. After you've confronted someone in LFR with civility and have become ineffective, after your vote kick fails and after you place a person on ignore, please share us how you can "get results" without compromising your integrity or values (lol?)

You started this thread. You told everyone to stand up to them. You're one slice of bread away from being Jesus Christ himself. Please educate us.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
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join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

No I didn't miss it at all. I found common ground in that statment in the text I put in bold, because it meant that you "aren't going to insult the fail's mom". I'm tracking, dude.

Just making sure you weren't being sarcastic.

I told you we all agreed. Deep down.

said by Immer:

You don't understand me or what I stand for.

And this is why Arch is jumping all over you. You pull a moral high horse then won't defend, or explain, it. People can respect your beliefs--even if they disagree with them--as long as you can explain them in a logical, coherent manner when challenged. But if you decide to paint the issue in hard black-and-white, good-and-evil morals, and then pull something like you just did, then you just look like...


--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Immer
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kudos:8
Reviews:
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2 edits
reply to Archivis
said by Archivis:

You started this thread. You told everyone to stand up to them. You're one slice of bread away from being Jesus Christ himself. Please educate us.

This really is who you are, isn't it? The restaurant scenario has happened, and I didn't need to involve the entire restaurant.

The LFR example has followed a couple of different paths.

As soon as something goes wrong, I start checking logs... I want to know who really "started" that fight (hunter Misdirect has lead me to vote the wrong person kicked once before). If I notice someone getting dumped on, I speak out. Most of the time the abuser backs off the abuse part and goes back to just pointing out what he/she views as the problem. I try to confirm in the meters. While doing that I usually whisper the accused/victim a question "first time?" or "do you know this fight?" They admit they're a noob, I focus on my /whispers to that person and am free to /ignore the asshat. If the rest of the raid boots the guy I'm working with, oh well. I did what I could.

I've also seen an entire LFR go from just "ignoring the abusive asshat" to banding against said asshat simply by getting the guy to "come at me" instead of his earlier target. It is much easier to do when you are the top healer, or top dps, but it is possible to be the catalyst for social change without being it's undeniable champion. Anyway, I can calmly continue to rebuke his demeanor (as I am handling this thread)... sometimes the rest of the LFR jumps in and marginalizes him. They don't always VTK the guy, because sometimes it is the Top DPS/DMG Done who feels entitled to being an ass. But at least, he's focused on someone who has thick skin(me) rather than someone who might actually be hurting, new, confused, a kid... etc. What is really great is if I can get the asshole to stop posting his venom in /rsay and move to /whisper just to me. That's a big win in my book.

I've had people create fresh toons on our server to say thanks. I've had people create fresh toons on our server to apologize for their demeanor while reiterating that they were justified.

I've also failed to make any difference whatsoever in many an LFR. But I've never failed to take action... and I've very rarely lost my cool or compromised my standards. That's my point.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
reply to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok:

And this is why Arch is jumping all over you. You pull a moral high horse then won't defend, or explain, it.

But he can't. That's the thing. There is no way to get results after you've put a person on ignore. How can you respond to a person when you can't even see what they're saying? How do you combat someone that you can't see? What happens when the vote kicks fail?

Immer says that I'm painting him as a pacificist when he says he isn't.

I'm going to say that Immer is a textbook definition of pacifist. Look at these forums. Look at the history of the posts. Look at all the people that have spent accumulating totals of hundreds or thousands of dollars to transfer to Immer's server, into Immer's guild. How many people have since transferred off? How many people are in hot water with their spouse because they spent a significant amount of money to take a plunge on another server only to be extremely disappointed?

It isn't bad enough that there is no economy. It isn't bad enough that there's no one on the server to recruit. No, he takes it a step further by being absolutely passive in his leadership. Since these threads started, I've been told horror story after horror story about how people were promised the world, spent hundreds of dollars PER PERSON to transfer over and then were extremely disappointed. I don't solicit these remarks. Ever since I've been painted as Immer's anti-christ they've been flowing in. These people took the high road and tried to build up the guild. They make resources available. They attempt to mentor other people, but as soon as they try to make a move that assists people in being better, BAM they get shut down.

These horrible people in the raid can't even be fixed. You know why? Because you won't let it happen. Your "morals" prevent any sort of positive criticism from taking place. Your morals prevent any kind of intellectual honesty from taking place. Your morals prevent any kind of accomplishment from taking place.

Here's where everything hits a very real and personal tipping point. This is where the point of implosion takes place. I've heard from no less than half a dozen people that your wife's hunter is the worst. Not just average, but horrible. I've heard that she's doing approximately 20k DPS on encounters. I saw your World of Logs posts and I was able to put out higher DPS on my 85 Death Knight in ilevel 399 gear than what your spouse is putting out.

No one can comment on it. No one can suggest anything. No one can point out that she's destroying the raids. No one is even willing to confront you about it because that's the right thing to do. That's your wife, man. That's the mother of your children. That's your soul mate. If someone points out an issue with her performance on the hunter, they're attacking your wife, your family, your soul mate. They may as well have shit right on the ring bearer's pillow on your wedding day. In your world of pacifism, even hinting at anything negative about that hunter is a one way ticket to eternal damnation. You can't even be constructive about it. But here's what you've done in the process. You've taken a great forum image and tarnished it front of a whole bunch of people who believed in your ability to accomplish something. They wasted hundreds of dollars on a video game based on your words and they're wasting hundreds more to leave, all because of your pacifism.... All because you refuse to give some constructive advice.

You don't need to confront your wife on her hunter's DPS. You don't need to tell her to play any better than she's currently doing right now. You DO need to stop promising people one thing and then delivering another. When people leave, you say "Well, this isn't what I promised them" when in fact you did. That's your pacifism kicking in, absolving yourself of responsibility of the expenses that others put forth. This isn't about me versus you. This is about you versus you. This is about you seriously wondering what you're trying to accomplish. Pacifism rides it from day to day. The reality is that the world is going to pass you by and you're going to night by night continually disappointed because the good players that geared up, transferred off your server somewhere else. You'll continue to cancel raids until you have no choice but to become a casual guild. Stop being a pacificist, look back at the advice I gave you a while ago on how to improve your guild, or stop pretending that you're going to accomplish something that has an ounce of difficulty in it and focus on just doing LFR, conquering content after it's been nerfed to hell and taking the easier route. There's nothing wrong with that, by the way. That's what we're doing. There's nothing serious business about what we do. We just hop on, play what's available and enjoy your evenings. End-game raiding demands better and it's not a friendly environment if you don't succeed.

But please, continue to tell us how to conduct ourselves on this game and in real life. Continue to tell us how you're not a pacificst. Tell me how you take your guild and these LFR raids and these bullies by the horn with your morals and values and disarm them and rescue the victims from harm.

The only morally superior people here are the ones who left your server without telling you the real reasons why. Not you, not me.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
dafuq are you doing.

This thread is about elotes and tamales now.


Harddrive
Proud American and Infidel since 1968.
Premium
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reply to Archivis
God damnit, we were talking about popcorn! Don't derail the thread.


Archivis
Your Daddy
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Earth
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I'm here writing a goddamn book and after I respond I see this is already derailed.

Oh well. When people start talking about what is morally right and wrong, it's only a matter of time until it gets personal. I feel like the end scene of The Dark Knight where I must flee the moderators while Gary Oldman talks about morality of what I just did.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Harddrive
Proud American and Infidel since 1968.
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1 recommendation

Thanks for spoiling it for me. Jerk.


Immer
Gentleman
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Reviews:
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2 edits
reply to Archivis
There is its. I know you've been waiting for that opportunity.

I've only promised a guild with good people. Family-oriented guild that is looking to build a raiding team. In our guild, RL > WoW always. We treat each other with dignity and respect as a rule. I've never hidden that. We have the potential to be great raiders on our server... we've not yet realized that potential. Those who left did so on good terms, at least from my end. I bear them no ill-will or grudge, and would welcome each of them back in a heart-beat.

If they've bad-mouthed me or my guild, this is the first I've heard of it. It is a fair argument to say that I ended up holding these stellar individuals back, which is why they made the right decisions for themselves in leaving... in hopes of finding more progression elsewhere.

None of them blamed my wife, or my alleged protection of her, for leaving. I'm thinking you are embellishing as you are prone to do... and doubt they'd word it as you have. I'm sure they shared horror stories... there was a lot of painful progression with half the raid performing exceptionally well and the other half struggling.

None of this has anything to do with the OP or this thread. It does, however, shed light on our personal conflict. You are convinced that I lied to, and mistreated your guys. If there remains some unspoken or unresolved issue with those players and me, we have a thread that they can air their grievances in (or they can PM me).
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Archivis
Your Daddy
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Earth
kudos:19
What I said was the honest truth. You didn't lie or mistreat me. I didn't spend a dime on you. This isn't about me, either. You can continue to believe that this is about me versus you, but that'll get you nowhere. You're so wrapped up in what Archivis is doing that you've completely ignored what you've done.

No one is willing to confront you because they see the personality that you have. There is no wrong doing on your part. There is never an error on your part. You have a strong reputation on these forums and for any single individual to say otherwise would excommunicate them from this forum. It's not like people can just gquit and move on. These people paid cash, in the hundreds of dollars. HUNDREDS. And then they have to pay equal amount just to make up for their mistake. That's absurd!

This thread is a prime example of that. You do not concede, ever. How could you consider yourself as approachable? People would rather bite the bullet on $30, $50, $100 or $400 than to speak out to you privately or publicly.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Harddrive
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They say that all the electrons that form the internet couldn't fill the volume of a strawberry.

Fascinating.


Immer
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reply to Archivis
said by Archivis:

This thread is a prime example of that. You do not concede, ever. How could you consider yourself as approachable? People would rather bite the bullet on $30, $50, $100 or $400 than to speak out to you privately or publicly.

Those who left our guild, did communicate with me. They got my apologies and my thanks. And now you claim to be their voice. This thread has been about trying to maintain a moral character despite being in an online setting... so, no, I'm not going to concede very much in that discussion. But I do admit failure, I do apologize and attempt to make amends... and I take full responsibility for what happens in our guild.

For a month, we had some really amazing raiders try to help us become great progression raiders. We are having fun, and we are doing more than we ever had before. We got a taste of greatness, and we will be forever grateful to them for the sacrifices they made while with us. We always emphasized family-first, and encouraged people to spend time with their families as they needed. Jobbie poured his heart out into this guild (he brought 2 toons over) and I failed him, personally... both in the guild and on these forums. I'm not ignoring what I've done, but I'm also not conceding to unrelated/unproven points, either. My failures as a recruiter and a raid leader do not absolve me of the responsibility of fighting to be a person of moral character on these forums, WoW, or any other social setting.

But in trying to defend an idea/philosophy, I guess I've allowed too much of the spotlight to be on me. It's a natural consequence from trying so hard to only speak "from my perspective".

/concede thread
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Tirael
BOHICA
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join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2

1 recommendation

I will boil this whole thread down to a few sentences. (that will turn into a paragraph)

You cannot attempt to defend some moral high standing of right/wrong if you are not readily able to a) admit when you make mistakes or b) never make them. Since b) is nearly impossible for humans, a) is really your only choice.

To say that you go through logs and et al to find out who is fubaring up your LFR is great. I would like to find out exactly how you figure out who cast Misdirection using the WoW combat log in a short period of time to figure out who ninja pulled (considering I do logging for my guild) I would love some insight into this process (since it is nearly impossible without some sort of logging program or real-time viewing of the .txt file that the combat log exports into, which is also impossible because 2 programs cannot access the same file .txt file at the same time.)

However, that point is a segue into this one. To say you are critical of players in LFR is one thing. To not be equally as critical of the players in your OWN raid is terrible. If you plan on actually downing content pre-nerf-to-shit-bat, you have to give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism to EVERYONE. This is the social contract of a raiding guild, be it casual or otherwise. You have to understand that if 1/10 or 1/25 people is holding your raid back, then you must be able to communicate with them in such a way that they understand what they need to do in order to help the group succeed. That person must also understand that you are only looking out for the interest of EVERYONE in your raid group.

I am sorry, but mother of your children, wife, and any other various relationship with someone should not entitle you to some special place in the raiding hierarchy. If you are holding the raid back, according to your principals, you should not be there. That person should also understand one simple mantra of the raider (regardless of level of dedication); this is a GROUP activity. Anyone worth their salt should understand that if they are holding the group back, they need to get better or be replaced.

You hold everyone in your LFR group to this same litmus. Why you wouldn't hold your OWN raiders (regardless of relationship to you) to this same test is beyond Archivis, Kris and me.

You cannot say you are on this moral high ground and then when push comes to shove, back off. You are either a) morally upstanding and care about your guild's success or b) care more about your relationships with people. Neither is a wrong choice, however, if some or all of b) is true, someone else should be your raid leader and possibly guild leader. You have to be unbiased to be a truly great leader, period. This is even true in WoW.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo


Immer
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Reviews:
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I do hold the same litmus. The litmus test here is abuse. I don't allow abuse in the guild or raid. That's a totally different thing from what Arch is accusing me of doing in my raid group. He's accusing me of not saying anything to my wife, or overly stifling the other raiders by not allowing them to say something to my wife. Neither of which was the case. She opted out of one raid, and our only replacement did no better. It was either keep trying or call the raid.

The raid was failing to mechanics, but we had an awesome r.shaman, 2 great mages, a great lock, and a great shaman. When everything fell in place at the same time we got the kill. And then we lost top players and now have to rebuild.

I don't hound players in LFR for performance. But if someone is abusing others incorrectly, I point out their error and then ask that they tone down the rhetoric and play the game. And then I offer to help the one "failing" via /whisper.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
said by Immer:

I don't hound players in LFR for performance. But if someone is abusing others incorrectly, I point out their error and then ask that they tone down the rhetoric and play the game. And then I offer to help the one "failing" via /whisper.

So this is where we disagree. Here's my LFR social contract:

No doubt you think me calling a baddie for failing is "abusing others incorrectly." When I say "hey look at the dumb lock standing in fire" and it gets noticed fight after fight, perhaps you disagree that the correct course of action is something other than a kick.

I don't care why he stands in fire. I don't care that his girlfriend is prancing in front of the monitor with nothing on. I don't care if his internet connection is slow because he's also downloading.

He's a stranger, and he's put in LFR to perform. If he can't, he has no place in LFR. It's hard to keep a group together if you aren't first held together by competence. It's the same thing that gives rise to esprit de corps, camaraderie, and sense of belonging/elitism in the military. When the shit hits the fan, you can depend on me to have your back and vice versa. If you aren't first held together by sheer competence, nothing else matters. Be able to do your job or GTFO of LFR.
To me, this ^ is the minimally, socially acceptable way to deal with someone who doesn't belong in LFR. At worst, we quickly kick him and move on. Sucks to be him, boo hoo.

I might be nicer to him (the group might not), and it might entirely depend on if I sat in traffic for longer than 3 hours total today, or maybe I empathized because we are the same class/race/whatever, but I don't have to, and it's not wrong if I don't. At the bare minimum, he deserves to be called out, justify his behavior (and something as simple as "sry was an accident wont happen again" is all it takes to defuse the situation) and put to a vote of the group. That's the social contract in LFR.

Anyways, my original premise that baddies are a bigger issue than abusers still stands. Especially if the baddies are provoking the abuse.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Venom1

join:2011-10-21
Augusta, GA
reply to Archivis
said by Archivis:

What I said was the honest truth. You didn't lie or mistreat me. I didn't spend a dime on you. This isn't about me, either. You can continue to believe that this is about me versus you, but that'll get you nowhere. You're so wrapped up in what Archivis is doing that you've completely ignored what you've done.

No one is willing to confront you because they see the personality that you have. There is no wrong doing on your part. There is never an error on your part. You have a strong reputation on these forums and for any single individual to say otherwise would excommunicate them from this forum. It's not like people can just gquit and move on. These people paid cash, in the hundreds of dollars. HUNDREDS. And then they have to pay equal amount just to make up for their mistake. That's absurd!

This thread is a prime example of that. You do not concede, ever. How could you consider yourself as approachable? People would rather bite the bullet on $30, $50, $100 or $400 than to speak out to you privately or publicly.

in a you can't handle the truth, and since immer knows my morals are not nearly as high as his are. here's what happened.

we had a bad tank have some serious issues swapping dogs. he is no longer with us. we have had bad calls on swaps since then, my fault, but these mysterious aggro issues have not come back up.

as a progression leader on the greatest guild feathermoon ever knew back in bc, you should understand that performance on a brand new encounter within the first two weeks is not going to be optimal and that sometime practicing the movements is more important than outright dps; mostly cuz the dps to the floor tiles doesn't matter. and that 20k output was also a bad call on my part while dealing with purple and blue at the same time. too much movement.

and lastly, there is no need to berate anyone, publicly or privately if it will not have the desired effect. As I know both of them personally, I know how much help Immer's spouse, get this novel concept, asks for when her numbers take a hit. She reads up on hunter's union, but the glorious thing is she doesn't need to ask in vent, she can lean over and ask. taking a the time to find a few attempts on the logs where she underperformed is just low.

but since you have jobbie back(he's the only one that spent anywhere in the neighborhood of money you are talking about so it narrows it down), you could just ask him, "What was the bigger problem, the dps or the tank?"

in the end we lost a strong personality that was affecting the guild negatively, and a few other raiders left not knowing he had already transfered within the same afternoon.

so this singling out of Immer's spouse to get under his skin may have worked, and got him to walk out of this thread, but trust he is not a pascifist, not if you knew him personally, and he does hold everyone accountable for their performance.

in the end you claim to be a professional troll; most of us don't actually think that a title worth claiming or defending.
--
For Rogues, by Rogues, to be used at the Rogue drive through when you order a side-order of Rogue.


Tirael
BOHICA
Premium
join:2009-03-18
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

You and Arch maintain that performance failures justify verbal brutality. I disagree. Call them out civilly, and if they "go full retard" /ignore and then VTK. No reason to stop being civil. Is that really so difficult a concept?

said by Immer:

I speak up, not the way you implied. I take action, not the actions you implied. I get results without compromising my integrity or values. I fight when a fight is warranted. You keep making me out to be a pacifist. That's completely untrue. You don't understand me or what I stand for. That is why I'm not trying to change you, or convince you of anything.

said by Immer:

As soon as something goes wrong, I start checking logs... I want to know who really "started" that fight (hunter Misdirect has lead me to vote the wrong person kicked once before). If I notice someone getting dumped on, I speak out. Most of the time the abuser backs off the abuse part and goes back to just pointing out what he/she views as the problem. I try to confirm in the meters. While doing that I usually whisper the accused/victim a question "first time?" or "do you know this fight?" They admit they're a noob, I focus on my /whispers to that person and am free to /ignore the asshat. If the rest of the raid boots the guy I'm working with, oh well. I did what I could.

I've also seen an entire LFR go from just "ignoring the abusive asshat" to banding against said asshat simply by getting the guy to "come at me" instead of his earlier target. It is much easier to do when you are the top healer, or top dps, but it is possible to be the catalyst for social change without being it's undeniable champion. Anyway, I can calmly continue to rebuke his demeanor (as I am handling this thread)... sometimes the rest of the LFR jumps in and marginalizes him. They don't always VTK the guy, because sometimes it is the Top DPS/DMG Done who feels entitled to being an ass. But at least, he's focused on someone who has thick skin(me) rather than someone who might actually be hurting, new, confused, a kid... etc. What is really great is if I can get the asshole to stop posting his venom in /rsay and move to /whisper just to me. That's a big win in my book.

I've had people create fresh toons on our server to say thanks. I've had people create fresh toons on our server to apologize for their demeanor while reiterating that they were justified.

Quote 1: Do you do this in your own raids?

Quote 2: Do you actually get results in your raids? How far is your progression? Sorry if the second one seems like I am lording my own progression over you, but it is the only real way to understand if you are actually getting results.

Quote 3: Do you do these things in your own raids? Ignoring the asshattery parts of this particular quote, focus on the "Is this person doing something wrong that can be fixed?" part. You stepped across the line of the discussion of just "abuse" whenever you entered into a discussion about "performance".

FYI: The whole point of Arch coming into this thread was for that very reason.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo