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Suniojii

join:2009-10-31
Lakeside, CA

1 edit
reply to Immer

Re: [Classes] Warlock 5.0.5

Affliction top dps parses use Archy's Vengeance vs Kil'jaeden. Also, affliction only needs spell hit to 8%.

cymraeg
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why is the hit so low Suni?


Immer
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1 edit
reply to Suniojii

Re: [Classes] Warlock 5.0.5 (Affliction)

said by Suniojii:

Affliction top dps parses use Archy's Vengeance vs Kil'jaeden. Also, affliction only needs spell hit to 8%.

I think the locks here could use a reference for the 8% hit cap claim... everywhere I look says 15%.

As for the top parses using Archimonde's Vengeance, that probably has more to do with the encounter design than raw potential of the talent/spec/player. Base talent specs are for baseline guides. Once mastered, the idea behind the current talent tree/glyph approach is to game (min/max) each encounter for more dynamic gameplay.

The tough thing about Simulations is I don't think they run with a "boss does X amount of dmg/sec to player"... so the SIM probably can't quantify the value of Archimonde's Vengeance properly.

said by IcyVeins :

Tier 6 talents provide situational DPS increases.

• Archimonde's Vengeance causes your target to suffer 25% of all the damage you take for 8 seconds. It has a 2-minute cooldown. When the ability is off cooldown, enemies who attack you suffer 5% of all the damage they deal to you.
• Kil'jaeden's Cunning enables you to cast and channel while moving for 6 seconds. It has a 1-minute cooldown. This talent also grants you a passive effect, which allows you to cast and channel while moving but the cast/channel time of your spells is increased by 50% and each cast reduces your movement speed by 10% for 6 seconds (stacking up to 2 times). This passive effect is disabled when Kiljaeden's Cunning is on cooldown.
• Mannoroth's Fury increases the area of your AoE spells by 500%. The wording of the tooltip is rather poor. What this talent really does is increase the radius of your AoE spells by roughly 125% (so the radius is multiplied by 2.25), which causes the area affected by your AoE spells to become 5 times bigger (source=wowhead).

All of these talents have situational use. Kil'jaeden's Cunning Icon Kil'jaeden's Cunning will be useful in movement-heavy fights. Mannoroth's Fury Icon Mannoroth's Fury will be nigh-mandatory in AoE-heavy fights where enemies are loosely stacked. Archimonde's Vengeance will be the default choice and can be used when you will regularly take a large amount of unavoidable damage (if Soul Link is active, the damage done to your pet will also be dealt back to the enemies).

edit: So, if you have the rest of your rotation down, uptime maximized/optimized on all of your dmg dealing abilities, and you are taking a lot of unavoidable dmg... give Archimonde's Vengeance a try to see if it will increase your dmg output.
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Carpie

join:2012-10-19
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said by Immer:

I think the locks here could use a reference for the 8% hit cap claim... everywhere I look says 15%.

said by Immer:

www.Noxxic.com/wow/pve/warlock/affliction

Stat Priority:
Intellect > Spell Hit (15%) = Mastery > Haste > Crit

Noxxic states this now? I could have SWORE that it (and maxdps.com) had mastery before hit on Afflication. It was actually one of the reasons I went away from Aff because I could never get used to having hit less than 15%. I did quite a bit of research on it at the time and there were a number of debates on the subject without any clear solution. Many people pointed out that the majority of players on the leaderboards had hit reforged to get that 14-15%. I ended up maxing hit anyhow (plus I wanted the same gear for Destro OS).

I know, I know. References. DAMN YOU WEBSENSE!


Immer
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2 edits
I just checked MaxDPS.com and they are still using SimulationCraft version 505-2. Noxxic is using version 505-5. That might explain the discrepancy.

edit: and don't worry... you did provide references. Not everyone can provide a link.

edit2: Anyone else disappointed in the lack of an OP Guide for Locks at EJ?


Suniojii

join:2009-10-31
Lakeside, CA
reply to cymraeg

Re: [Classes] Warlock 5.0.5

said by cymraeg:

why is the hit so low Suni?

It's an open debate on wow warlock forums, but the consensus is that lower hit does max dps. As far as talents, I use www.guildox.com to look at the spec that top guilds and players are using in current content.

Im surprised people are still using Noxxic when their information has been proven inaccurate in the past.


Immer
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I skimmed one of the discussions a bit and I'm frankly annoyed with the approach being taken on the matter.

Being at the raid spell hit cap of 15% is mathematically sound advice, especially for baseline players (or beginners), because if you are at the hit cap, you've limited your concerns to only your rotations and firing off your abilities at the perfect time to maximize Uptime. There is nothing wrong with this advice/approach. Nothing. Nothing has been disproven mathematically.

Now, there is another group of players who are of the mindset that they are willing to accept a chance to miss a raid boss target if they can effectively increase the dmg they are doing when they don't miss. Here is what I find annoying... the "you just need 8%" or "why are you saying they Need to be hitcapped when it's been proven that being under hitcap is a dps gain". See what's missing? The full disclosure of the real argument.

Just being under the hit cap (15%) is not in itself a dps boost. Choosing to sacrifice Hit/Exp in favor of Mastery/Haste is a dps increase for your hits provided you make enough adjustments to your playstyle to account for your misses. If you are under hit cap, you need to pay closer attention to your Haunt and stacks of Agony. If you lose your Agony stacks or lose Haunt uptime, you could see a dramatic drop in your dps. The Haste will allow you to re-cast a missed spell faster, and hopefully prevent you from losing uptime on Agony stacks and Haunt. So, in the interest of full disclosure... if you are micro-managing your DoTs really well and are looking for a way to squeeze out some more dmg, then consider adjusting your reforge priority so that Mastery and Haste are higher than Hit... and experiment. Staying above 8% will keep life running smoothly for lol dungeons and dailies.
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Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.

cymraeg
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join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE

1 edit
reply to Suniojii
okay that doesnt explain the debate it just tells me about it, ill ask differently this time. why is 8% hit a good thing for more dps? why is 15% not?

edit; sorry just saw immers post i get it now
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Immer
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reply to Suniojii
said by Suniojii:

Im surprised people are still using Noxxic when their information has been proven inaccurate in the past.

Their format is clean, and they are a good place for beginners (such as me) to get a feel. Icy-Veins is the next step up with more in-depth discussion. EJ is hit or miss until they have solid OP guides built. MaxDPS and GuildOX are less theory and more anecdotal "what are people actually doing for their results" but they leave it up to the reader to explain "why" or "how" it works for them. Which site is "the best" will vary based on patch and player.
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Suniojii

join:2009-10-31
Lakeside, CA
reply to cymraeg
said by cymraeg:

okay that doesnt explain the debate it just tells me about it, ill ask differently this time. why is 8% hit a good thing for more dps? why is 15% not?

edit; sorry just saw immers post i get it now

Sorry, I am not being vague on purpose. There is just way to much information, simtests, and theorycrafting to be able to post anything that would provide a coherent read. My best results have been the warlock forums on icy veins and the official warlock forums. I reforged into mastery/haste and I have "personally" noticed large gains.
Item Level 463 - 490ish
Haste > Mastery > Hit > Crit

Item Level 490ish - 500ish
Mastery > Haste > Hit > Crit

Item Level 500+
Mastery > Hit > Haste > Crit


Goldheart

join:2002-06-09
Las Cruces, NM
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1 edit
reply to Immer

Re: [Classes] Warlock 5.0.5 (Affliction)

edit: So, if you have the rest of your rotation down, uptime maximized/optimized on all of your dmg dealing abilities, and you are taking a lot of unavoidable dmg... give Archimonde's Vengeance a try to see if it will increase your dmg output.

I personally use AV. A passive 5% damage return to attackers is nice on its own! And 25% for 8 seconds is excellent. I just wonder if it actually does this 25% return on raid bosses?

Sadly it does no damage while on cooldown. Picking the right time for 25% damage return for 8 seconds can be tricky.


Nick D
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join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA
It works fine on raid bosses. Figuring out when the best time to use it is part of the skill required to make use of the talent


stonhinge
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join:2003-07-28
Topeka, KS
yeah, once you learn the fights, it gets easier to determine where to use AV. Keep in mind that it has to be damage done directly by the boss - standing in bad won't help you any. Anytime there's massive unavoidable raid damage - or one of those random target direct casts - is probably a good time to use it. The bigger the hit you take, the "better". If you have Soul Link, raidwide AoE is probably the best time to use it, as the damage the pet takes will count towards it as well.
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