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Grappler

join:2002-09-01
Ottawa, ON

GTA is Full of Them - Another "My Rights Are More Important

Attached Link refers:

»www.thestar.com/news/gta/article···-ontario

I am not a religious person, far from it, nor am I a misogynist, but these nut cases have to be reigned in.

This is a prime example where our tax dollars are being wasted to make a decision. This woman and any other person willing to take outrageous stands should be forced to deposit monies to the courts/tribunals to pay for their cause in advance. I am sure a simple test can be designed to weed out these cases in advance and force the payment for costs in advance. There are more important discrimination issues than a haircut, which in this case I support the barber, IMHO his rights are more important in this matter.


dragonfly

join:2012-09-04

Re: GTA is Full of Them - Another "My Rights Are More Impor

Nah, it's an interesting question. If a bull wants a man's haircut, why shouldn't she be able to get one? What's the difference? She is protected from discrimination based on gender and gender identity, unless reasonable. And where that collides with religous freedom, it becomes a real stumper.

I think it's a good question for the tribunal. I disagree, though, that this one barber should be paying these legal fees. Those should be paid for by the province -- it's a social issue. He shouldn't be out thousands of dollars just because he lost the lottery.


camelot

join:2008-04-12
Whitby, ON
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reply to Grappler

Her case may have merit, if there were no other places to go.

The fact is, we have men's and women's services alive and well. This doesn't leave you in the dust, however.

Take a look at Goodlife fitness clubs for women. No men allowed. Or the "Curves" franchise. No men allowed. And those aren't for religious reasons, either.

I'm not quite sure why she's fighting this. They don't want your business, so don't take them to court to force them to take your business! Take your business to someone else. Problem solved.

I truly believe, she is a media pig looking for her time in the spotlight. This is nothing but making a mountain out of a molehill.



hm

@videotron.ca
reply to dragonfly

Maybe a simple way around this would be that women would need to make an appointment, then he can get some student barber in at the time arrange and then be forced to pay the minimum 4-hr salary (or is it 3 in toronto). But then her hair cut would cost 5x that of a mans haircut and women only would require an appointment. But, if that's what she wants, then she should pay through the nose for it.

Yeah, a sticky one. I think what he offered was good enough and showed good faith as is. What does she expect them to do? Hire someone else just for her? Or should they just disregard what they believe?

I'd be interested as well to see the outcome of this.



DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to Grappler

said by Grappler:

Attached Link refers:

»www.thestar.com/news/gta/article···-ontario

I am not a religious person, far from it, nor am I a misogynist, but these nut cases have to be reigned in.

This is a prime example where our tax dollars are being wasted to make a decision. This woman and any other person willing to take outrageous stands should be forced to deposit monies to the courts/tribunals to pay for their cause in advance. I am sure a simple test can be designed to weed out these cases in advance and force the payment for costs in advance. There are more important discrimination issues than a haircut, which in this case I support the barber, IMHO his rights are more important in this matter.

Wrong. It is a case of competing rights. There no such thing as a hierarchy of rights, but a situation where a resolution between equal rights must be found. The best place for that (and a cheaper place) is the HR Tribunal, as opposed to everyone hiring a lawyer and taking valuable court time. One solution has already been proposed in this case. There may be others.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
reply to camelot

said by camelot:

Take a look at Goodlife fitness clubs for women. No men allowed. Or the "Curves" franchise. No men allowed. And those aren't for religious reasons, either.

There is your double standard. You cannot have a men only but you can have a women only.


Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
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said by donoreo:

There is your double standard. You cannot have a men only but you can have a women only.

In the case of a fitness club you probably could get away with men only, just that not many have bothered.


donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON

said by Gone:

said by donoreo:

There is your double standard. You cannot have a men only but you can have a women only.

In the case of a fitness club you probably could get away with men only, just that not many have bothered.

You know someone would complain. I think there should be places with men only and women only if those groups want it.

This haircut one is tricky. I see they later found a barber there who would cut her hair, so now she is just being whiny. The slippery slope in this case is creating a hierarchy of rights. We do not want that.
--
The irony of common sense, it is not that common.
I cannot deny anything I did not say.
A kitten dies every time someone uses "then" and "than" incorrectly.
I mock people who give their children odd spelling of names.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Ormond Beach, FL
reply to Grappler

said by Grappler:

I am sure a simple test can be designed to weed out these cases in advance and force the payment for costs in advance.

When a complaint is received by the HRTO registrar there is a litmus test to see if the complaint fulfills all the perquisite criteria before it proceeds to the adjudication process.


urbanriot
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reply to dragonfly

said by dragonfly:

Nah, it's an interesting question. If a bull wants a man's haircut, why shouldn't she be able to get one?

I'm sure she can... somewhere else. If a place has a business owner or employee that won't serve someone, simply go somewhere else. When I receive rude service, I take my business elsewhere; I don't make a big stink about it or go to some 'rights' tribunal.

Hah, I figured it was a bunch of Italian barbers until I clicked on the link and saw it was people of the Islamic faith.

Nevermind their religious faith, I support any business owner that doesn't want to serve someone for whatever reason. A business owner has rights as well. What tribunal does our society offer to them, to cost others money?

MaynardKrebs
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join:2009-06-17
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reply to Grappler

All religion (except Pastafanarianism) is a collection of beliefs and superstition rooted in ancient misunderstandings and attempts to make sense of things thousands of years ago.

You want to believe & practice that stuff, fine, go ahead. Just do it in the confines of your own home or place of worship. When dealing with the public in a secular society, I don't care which stripe of fairy tale you want to believe in, just stick your religious beliefs where the sun don't shine and serve ALL the public or get your business license revoked.


dragonfly

join:2012-09-04
reply to urbanriot

People need to stick up for their rights, otherwise they wouldn't have any. It's messy and inconvenient but necessary.


camelot

join:2008-04-12
Whitby, ON
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reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

You want to believe & practice that stuff, fine, go ahead. Just do it in the confines of your own home or place of worship. When dealing with the public in a secular society, I don't care which stripe of fairy tale you want to believe in, just stick your religious beliefs where the sun don't shine and serve ALL the public or get your business license revoked.

However that is not what the Charter says. The Charter does not say "You are free to practice "in your own home" but no where else."

Your argument would not hold up in a Court.

I don't agree a lot with the Tribunal, however this case is just a waste of their time when the business owner clearly said he has someone else willing to server her. It should have ended there, but the woman decided to go public with it and make a scene.

Religious people can be reasonable, the same advice should be followed by those who DON'T believe the same.

NCRGuy

join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON
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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

Nevermind their religious faith, I support any business owner that doesn't want to serve someone for whatever reason. A business owner has rights as well. What tribunal does our society offer to them, to cost others money?

A business owner does not have the right to discriminate in the offering of services on the basis of certain prohibited grounds, including gender.

However, in this case I don't see it as a matter of discrimination on the basis of gender, rather discrimination against the business owner on the basis of religion -- an equally protected right.

I believe she is being unreasonable, and may need to find a hobby.

NCRGuy

join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON
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reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

All religion (except Pastafanarianism) is a collection of beliefs and superstition rooted in ancient misunderstandings and attempts to make sense of things thousands of years ago.

You want to believe & practice that stuff, fine, go ahead. Just do it in the confines of your own home or place of worship. When dealing with the public in a secular society, I don't care which stripe of fairy tale you want to believe in, just stick your religious beliefs where the sun don't shine and serve ALL the public or get your business license revoked.

Too bad both the Constitution and human rights legislation say that it is your bigoted views toward religion that should be shoved where the sun don't shine.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

You want to believe & practice that stuff, fine, go ahead. Just do it in the confines of your own home or place of worship. When dealing with the public in a secular society, I don't care which stripe of fairy tale you want to believe in, just stick your religious beliefs where the sun don't shine and serve ALL the public or get your business license revoked.

Sorry, that's not according to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which protects all religious practice. And Canada is not a secular society, according to the Constitution.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.

camelot

join:2008-04-12
Whitby, ON
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reply to NCRGuy

said by NCRGuy:

A business owner does not have the right to discriminate in the offering of services on the basis of certain prohibited grounds, including gender.

Wish the same would be said for Goodlife Fitness for Women. Or Curves.

NCRGuy

join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON
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reply to DKS

said by DKS:

said by MaynardKrebs:

You want to believe & practice that stuff, fine, go ahead. Just do it in the confines of your own home or place of worship. When dealing with the public in a secular society, I don't care which stripe of fairy tale you want to believe in, just stick your religious beliefs where the sun don't shine and serve ALL the public or get your business license revoked.

Sorry, that's not according to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which protects all religious practice. And Canada is not a secular society, according to the Constitution.

Exactly. For those who may have forgotten:

quote:
Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law
And no, that's not from 145 years ago, it's from 30.

NCRGuy

join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON
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reply to camelot

said by camelot:

said by NCRGuy:

A business owner does not have the right to discriminate in the offering of services on the basis of certain prohibited grounds, including gender.

Wish the same would be said for Goodlife Fitness for Women. Or Curves.

Both arguably permissible under the Human Rights Code.

MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to NCRGuy

said by NCRGuy:

[
Exactly. For those who may have forgotten:

quote:
Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law
And no, that's not from 145 years ago, it's from 30.

My 'god' says that since the plethora of 'gods' has caused pretty much nothing but strife, massacres, suppression of dissent, subjugation of women & minorities, and an overabundance of religious pedophilia over the centuries, that 'gods' should be left at home.

NCRGuy

join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON
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said by MaynardKrebs:

said by NCRGuy:

[
Exactly. For those who may have forgotten:

quote:
Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law
And no, that's not from 145 years ago, it's from 30.

My 'god' says that since the plethora of 'gods' has caused pretty much nothing but strife, massacres, suppression of dissent, subjugation of women & minorities, and an overabundance of religious pedophilia over the centuries, that 'gods' should be left at home.

And the bigotry continues...

MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17
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said by NCRGuy:

And the bigotry continues...

Not really.
I oppose fairy tales and all the evil that's done in their name, that's all.

NCRGuy

join:2008-03-03
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said by MaynardKrebs:

said by NCRGuy:

And the bigotry continues...

Not really.
I oppose fairy tales and all the evil that's done in their name, that's all.

So, go picket a Walt Disney movie, and take your bigotry with you.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
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reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by NCRGuy:

And the bigotry continues...

Not really.
I oppose fairy tales and all the evil that's done in their name, that's all.

There's two sides to the zealot coin...

MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17
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reply to camelot

said by camelot:

However that is not what the Charter says. The Charter does not say "You are free to practice "in your own home" but no where else."

The Income Tax Act gives recognized fairy tale religious believers a MORE than generous way of funding and having Neverland places of worship on backs of those who don't contribute to such endeavours. That strikes me as a more than fair 'bargain' (tradeoff of competing rights).

NCRGuy

join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON
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said by MaynardKrebs:

said by camelot:

However that is not what the Charter says. The Charter does not say "You are free to practice "in your own home" but no where else."

The Income Tax Act gives recognized fairy tale religious believers a MORE than generous way of funding and having Neverland places of worship on backs of those who don't contribute to such endeavours. That strikes me as a more than fair 'bargain' (tradeoff of competing rights).

So, not only do you not understand religion, you don't understand law. Glad we sorted that out.

camelot

join:2008-04-12
Whitby, ON
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reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

The Income Tax Act gives recognized fairy tale religious believers a MORE than generous way of funding and having Neverland places of worship on backs of those who don't contribute to such endeavours. That strikes me as a more than fair 'bargain' (tradeoff of competing rights).

Your argument is based in bigotry and wildly off-topic. Your comments will likely get this thread locked.

The issue is not what YOU believe in religion. The issue is the religious freedoms of one conflicting with the gender equality of another; NOT what you believe religion is or it's funding questions.

Please stay on-topic or go hijack someone else's thread.


donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
reply to NCRGuy

said by NCRGuy:

And the bigotry continues...

I do not see how that is bigotry. He is saying believe what you want, just do it in private.


urbanriot
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reply to NCRGuy

said by NCRGuy:

said by MaynardKrebs:

I oppose fairy tales and all the evil that's done in their name, that's all.

So, go picket a Walt Disney movie, and take your bigotry with you.

This selection of text made me burst out with laughter. Seriously, this quote block is hilarious! Thanks for that.

MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to NCRGuy

said by NCRGuy:

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by NCRGuy:

And the bigotry continues...

Not really.
I oppose fairy tales and all the evil that's done in their name, that's all.

So, go picket a Walt Disney movie, and take your bigotry with you.

I'm not denying your right to believe in or practice of fairy tales, mysticism, blood rituals, cannibalism, tarot cards or whatever. I'm just asking that you restrict that to your home, or place of worship with other like-minded people, and not foist that on the rest of the public.