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MaynardKrebs
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reply to Grappler

Re: GTA is Full of Them - Another "My Rights Are More Impor

All religion (except Pastafanarianism) is a collection of beliefs and superstition rooted in ancient misunderstandings and attempts to make sense of things thousands of years ago.

You want to believe & practice that stuff, fine, go ahead. Just do it in the confines of your own home or place of worship. When dealing with the public in a secular society, I don't care which stripe of fairy tale you want to believe in, just stick your religious beliefs where the sun don't shine and serve ALL the public or get your business license revoked.

camelot

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said by MaynardKrebs:

You want to believe & practice that stuff, fine, go ahead. Just do it in the confines of your own home or place of worship. When dealing with the public in a secular society, I don't care which stripe of fairy tale you want to believe in, just stick your religious beliefs where the sun don't shine and serve ALL the public or get your business license revoked.

However that is not what the Charter says. The Charter does not say "You are free to practice "in your own home" but no where else."

Your argument would not hold up in a Court.

I don't agree a lot with the Tribunal, however this case is just a waste of their time when the business owner clearly said he has someone else willing to server her. It should have ended there, but the woman decided to go public with it and make a scene.

Religious people can be reasonable, the same advice should be followed by those who DON'T believe the same.

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reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

All religion (except Pastafanarianism) is a collection of beliefs and superstition rooted in ancient misunderstandings and attempts to make sense of things thousands of years ago.

You want to believe & practice that stuff, fine, go ahead. Just do it in the confines of your own home or place of worship. When dealing with the public in a secular society, I don't care which stripe of fairy tale you want to believe in, just stick your religious beliefs where the sun don't shine and serve ALL the public or get your business license revoked.

Too bad both the Constitution and human rights legislation say that it is your bigoted views toward religion that should be shoved where the sun don't shine.


DKS
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reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

You want to believe & practice that stuff, fine, go ahead. Just do it in the confines of your own home or place of worship. When dealing with the public in a secular society, I don't care which stripe of fairy tale you want to believe in, just stick your religious beliefs where the sun don't shine and serve ALL the public or get your business license revoked.

Sorry, that's not according to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which protects all religious practice. And Canada is not a secular society, according to the Constitution.
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said by DKS:

said by MaynardKrebs:

You want to believe & practice that stuff, fine, go ahead. Just do it in the confines of your own home or place of worship. When dealing with the public in a secular society, I don't care which stripe of fairy tale you want to believe in, just stick your religious beliefs where the sun don't shine and serve ALL the public or get your business license revoked.

Sorry, that's not according to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which protects all religious practice. And Canada is not a secular society, according to the Constitution.

Exactly. For those who may have forgotten:

quote:
Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law
And no, that's not from 145 years ago, it's from 30.

MaynardKrebs
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said by NCRGuy:

[
Exactly. For those who may have forgotten:

quote:
Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law
And no, that's not from 145 years ago, it's from 30.

My 'god' says that since the plethora of 'gods' has caused pretty much nothing but strife, massacres, suppression of dissent, subjugation of women & minorities, and an overabundance of religious pedophilia over the centuries, that 'gods' should be left at home.

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said by MaynardKrebs:

said by NCRGuy:

[
Exactly. For those who may have forgotten:

quote:
Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law
And no, that's not from 145 years ago, it's from 30.

My 'god' says that since the plethora of 'gods' has caused pretty much nothing but strife, massacres, suppression of dissent, subjugation of women & minorities, and an overabundance of religious pedophilia over the centuries, that 'gods' should be left at home.

And the bigotry continues...

MaynardKrebs
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said by NCRGuy:

And the bigotry continues...

Not really.
I oppose fairy tales and all the evil that's done in their name, that's all.

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said by MaynardKrebs:

said by NCRGuy:

And the bigotry continues...

Not really.
I oppose fairy tales and all the evil that's done in their name, that's all.

So, go picket a Walt Disney movie, and take your bigotry with you.

bt

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reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

said by NCRGuy:

And the bigotry continues...

Not really.
I oppose fairy tales and all the evil that's done in their name, that's all.

There's two sides to the zealot coin...

MaynardKrebs
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reply to camelot
said by camelot:

However that is not what the Charter says. The Charter does not say "You are free to practice "in your own home" but no where else."

The Income Tax Act gives recognized fairy tale religious believers a MORE than generous way of funding and having Neverland places of worship on backs of those who don't contribute to such endeavours. That strikes me as a more than fair 'bargain' (tradeoff of competing rights).

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said by MaynardKrebs:

said by camelot:

However that is not what the Charter says. The Charter does not say "You are free to practice "in your own home" but no where else."

The Income Tax Act gives recognized fairy tale religious believers a MORE than generous way of funding and having Neverland places of worship on backs of those who don't contribute to such endeavours. That strikes me as a more than fair 'bargain' (tradeoff of competing rights).

So, not only do you not understand religion, you don't understand law. Glad we sorted that out.

camelot

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reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

The Income Tax Act gives recognized fairy tale religious believers a MORE than generous way of funding and having Neverland places of worship on backs of those who don't contribute to such endeavours. That strikes me as a more than fair 'bargain' (tradeoff of competing rights).

Your argument is based in bigotry and wildly off-topic. Your comments will likely get this thread locked.

The issue is not what YOU believe in religion. The issue is the religious freedoms of one conflicting with the gender equality of another; NOT what you believe religion is or it's funding questions.

Please stay on-topic or go hijack someone else's thread.


donoreo
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reply to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:

And the bigotry continues...

I do not see how that is bigotry. He is saying believe what you want, just do it in private.


urbanriot
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reply to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:

said by MaynardKrebs:

I oppose fairy tales and all the evil that's done in their name, that's all.

So, go picket a Walt Disney movie, and take your bigotry with you.

This selection of text made me burst out with laughter. Seriously, this quote block is hilarious! Thanks for that.

MaynardKrebs
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reply to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by NCRGuy:

And the bigotry continues...

Not really.
I oppose fairy tales and all the evil that's done in their name, that's all.

So, go picket a Walt Disney movie, and take your bigotry with you.

I'm not denying your right to believe in or practice of fairy tales, mysticism, blood rituals, cannibalism, tarot cards or whatever. I'm just asking that you restrict that to your home, or place of worship with other like-minded people, and not foist that on the rest of the public.


urbanriot
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We're talking about religion here, not fairy tales, and what you're asking people to do is believe in what you believe in when they leave their home. I don't believe our society works that way.

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reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

and not foist that on the rest of the public.

So don't patron his business. Problem solved.

MaynardKrebs
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1 edit
said by camelot:

said by MaynardKrebs:

and not foist that on the rest of the public.

So don't patron his business. Problem solved.

So, hypothetically, what if his business was the ONLY one in a town which provided that good/service. Who's rights are being infringed then?

What if the person who wanted that good/service was a disabled woman with cerebral palsy in a wheel chair ?

Is the store owner within their religious rights to say:
a) I don't cut women's hair
b) I don't cut cripple's hair
c) I don't do wheelchairs
d) Some combination of the above?

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You missed my first post:

said by camelot:

Her case may have merit, if there were no other places to go.

However, in Toronto there are thousands of hair-cutting places. She has chosen this establishment to simply make a ridiculous point. If they don't want your business, take it to the guy next door.

And if you READ the story, the business already offered someone else in their shop who was willing to serve her. She instead turned it down.

said by MaynardKrebs:

What if the person who wanted that good/service was a disabled woman with cerebral palsy in a wheel chair ?

Is it wheelchair accessible? If so, that's all that's required of them. Being disabled does not affect whether they have to serve you.

MaynardKrebs
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said by camelot:

You missed my first post:

said by camelot:

Her case may have merit, if there were no other places to go.

However, in Toronto there are thousands of hair-cutting places. She has chosen this establishment to simply make a ridiculous point. If they don't want your business, take it to the guy next door.

And if you READ the story, the business already offered someone else in their shop who was willing to serve her. She instead turned it down.

The law doesn't work that way.
It's got to be a law that works in a 1-horse town too.

ie. if it's murder in Toronto then it's got to be murder in Proton, Ont.


urbanriot
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reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

So, hypothetically, what if his business was the ONLY one in a town which provided that good/service. Who's rights are being infringed then?

Why not refer to real situations rather than made up scenarios? You referred to fairy tales earlier yet here you are making them up.

Toronto has a huge LGBT community so a woman that wants to look like a man and have her hair cut in a barber shop owned by Muslim men is not an unexpected scenario; however a woman that wants to look like a man in a small town in rural Alberta with only one barber shop owned by a Muslim barber who wants her hair cut like a man? Uh huh....

MaynardKrebs
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said by urbanriot:

said by MaynardKrebs:

So, hypothetically, what if his business was the ONLY one in a town which provided that good/service. Who's rights are being infringed then?

Why not refer to real situations rather than made up scenarios? You referred to fairy tales earlier yet here you are making them up.

Toronto has a huge LGBT community so a woman that wants to look like a man and have her hair cut in a barber shop owned by Muslim men is not an unexpected scenario; however a woman that wants to look like a man in a small town in rural Alberta with only one barber shop owned by a Muslim barber who wants her hair cut like a man? Uh huh....

Maybe the prices charged by this barbershop was all she could afford. Or maybe he also refused because he perceived she *might* be a lesbian? Maybe the only way to find out *is* in court.

peterboro
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reply to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by NCRGuy:

And the bigotry continues...

Not really.
I oppose fairy tales and all the evil that's done in their name, that's all.

So, go picket a Walt Disney movie, and take your bigotry with you.

I didn't realize Disney claimed their fairy tales were real.


urbanriot
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reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

Maybe the only way to find out *is* in court.

I agree; however we're referring to a Human Rights Tribunal here, not the court of law, so we have people making legal decisions based on the perception of emotional offense.


agtle

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reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

said by camelot:

said by MaynardKrebs:

and not foist that on the rest of the public.

So don't patron his business. Problem solved.

So, hypothetically, what if his business was the ONLY one in a town which provided that good/service. Who's rights are being infringed then?

What if the person who wanted that good/service was a disabled woman with cerebral palsy in a wheel chair ?

Is the store owner within their religious rights to say:
a) I don't cut women's hair
b) I don't cut cripple's hair
c) I don't do wheelchairs
d) Some combination of the above?

I think the point trying to be made is where is the line drawn? It could be a slippery slope. Let's say the HRT says it is OK to deny service to women. Next someone uses that precedent to deny service based on skin colour, age, perceived sexual orientation... at what point does it become "unacceptable"?

I would tend to agree with the point Mr Krebs is trying to make, which I think is that we can't allow one freedom to be used a shield to infringe upon another person's freedoms.

MaynardKrebs
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reply to camelot
said by camelot:

Please stay on-topic or go hijack someone else's thread.

The original story, and as a result this thread, revolve around religious belief, the practice of that belief, and the effect those beliefs have on others. That is the ultimate topic since the barber refused - on religious grounds - to cut the woman's hair.

If you want to take a side, take the side of the woman. Last I heard, Canada is comprised of about 50% women.
I would take umbrage with ANY religious group of any size and popularity whose theology treats half the members of its society with anything other than dignity, respect, and full participatory rights in that society.

Yes, minority & religious rights are important and must be respected but unless you want a country, any country, to devolve into a theocracy, then religion is best practiced at home and in places of worship.

What would your view be if this occurred:
A Jew/Protestant/Catholic walks into a Muslim barbershop, asks for a haircut, and is denied because he's an 'infidel'?
What if the 'infidel' was a woman? Does that make it any more justifiable?

And no, this isn't YOUR thread - so I really don't have to go away.


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This is like the story a while ago that some muslim cabbies would not take a passenger with a dog (no matter how small or large) because in their religion dogs are "unclean".

There's a reason that most of the muslim world is in the shape its in and the people are generally laughed at...


shaner
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Calgary, AB
reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

You want to believe & practice that stuff, fine, go ahead. Just do it in the confines of your own home or place of worship. When dealing with the public in a secular society, I don't care which stripe of fairy tale you want to believe in, just stick your religious beliefs where the sun don't shine and serve ALL the public or get your business license revoked.

Really? So I should have the right to force a Kosher butcher to serve me pig bacon?

quote:
Shop co-owner Omar Mahrouk told her his Muslim faith prohibits him from touching a woman who is not a member of his family. All the other barbers said the same thing.
This woman needs to understand that others have rights too. He wasn't discriminating based on gender, he was following an extablished religious rule.
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MaynardKrebs
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said by shaner:

Really? So I should have the right to force a Kosher butcher to serve me pig bacon?

quote:Shop co-owner Omar Mahrouk told her his Muslim faith prohibits him from touching a woman who is not a member of his family. All the other barbers said the same thing.

This woman needs to understand that others have rights too. He wasn't discriminating based on gender, he was following an extablished religious rule.

A kosher or halal butcher won't typically have pork products in-stock, and normally doesn't deal with suppliers that do. However, if his/hers was the only butcher shop in-town and 50% of his clients had expressed an interest in having pork, then the kosher/halal butcher would - if they were smart - have a separate area to store/process pork products for their customers. At least there's no prohibition in Jewish religious laws for that as far as I know - only in regards to consumption of pork *by* Jews.

As to the 'religious practice', by the same religious logic a Muslim doctor could -- and would -- refuse to treat a woman not of his family bleeding out right in front of him. At that point it becomes criminal - Charter or not.